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Be as loud as other (Dance music) Dynamics Plugins
Old 21st March 2010
  #1
Gear Head
 

Be as loud as other (Dance music)

Hi everyone !

I Produce dance music, and because i haven't a big budget, i've to do my mastering myself !

I'm trying to do it in the best way that i can, following the rules that i've heard & read.

Mainly, i begin from a good mix master (not too much loudness), and using especially ozone (eq, multiband,..) and waves L2 (limiter) as plugs.
>I make it all with Ableton live.<

On the vu-meter i'm good, it sounds good and loud, BUT when i compare it to other same style tracks i'm pretty far of their results

Their tracks sounds louder, clearer, brighter as mine, and i'm stuck, because for example, if i'm limiting more it sound as crap and not even louder ....

SO, my question is, Does the problem could come from my daw (which is not famous for his audio engine ...) ?
Is it possible to make something as good as what labels do (not necessarly big), but at home ?
Old 21st March 2010
  #2
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dietrich10's Avatar
I master mostly dance music and produced it for years.

If you are just pushing say the low end and then limiting it to death, the VU meters will be pushed. but that does not mean the rest of the frequency spectrum is balanced.

Many clients of mine tell me they need their tracks to be on par with other Beatport files. It takes serious eq work before I even hit the chain of limiters at the end to achieve the volume they request.

It starts with the mix.
Old 21st March 2010
  #3
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misjah's Avatar
 

Verified Member
impossible to give a straight answer to this.....ur problem could be either in ur mix or in ur mastering. but from what i read its probably a combination of the 2. if i want a brick wall to be build i can do it myself but it wont be as straight as when a pro does it. either pay for a pro or accept the flaws in your wall. (and practise practise practise)
Old 21st March 2010
  #4
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XAXAU's Avatar
 

It´s actually very easy to be as loud and clean as the industry Beatport standard. All you need is a loud bassdrum and the rest of the mix will fall into place. In the end all you need is like 3dB´s of limiting and nothing else on the mixbus. Oh and produce into the limiter from the start, as you hear (see) it breaking up things you need to figure out what´s causing it and fix it. And like Misjah said it takes a little practice.

Check my posts on bassdrums to know how to get there.
Old 21st March 2010
  #5
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Waltz Mastering's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by dietrich10 View Post
It starts with the mix.
The mix is a big part of any of it, but I would say it starts with the initial sound elements, before the mix would come into play.
Old 21st March 2010
  #6
Gear Head
 

Thanks for answers !


But the fact is that i'm happy with my mix ! At the begining it sounds good (at least, it sound like i want it to do).
I would say that if i do mastering it's mainly to do some leveling, but because i may do it not correctly, i'm not loud enough, and even worse, it make my final mix dirty
Old 21st March 2010
  #7
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misjah's Avatar
 

Verified Member
post a link or pm me or go to my website and register and upload ur mix and ill have a listen. also provide ur "master" so i/we can get a picture of what ur doing. 1sec of wav tells more than a 1000 words
Old 21st March 2010
  #8
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dietrich10's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by XAXAU View Post
Oh and produce into the limiter from the start, as you hear (see) it breaking up things you need to figure out what´s causing it and fix it.
I am not a fan of mixing with limiter on your the mains. You should get best mix without.if you ever want to send the tracks to a ME many ask for version without the limiter on and the mix (when mixing with limiter on) sounds terrible when removing
Old 21st March 2010
  #9
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bakerman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by misjah View Post
1sec of wav tells more than a 1000 words
Ain't that the scary truth! nicely put
Old 23rd March 2010
  #10
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studioland's Avatar
 

Maybe you're limiting too much. Limiters are often responsible for too much flatness try limiting less. and keep life in your music. As someone else said otherwise try to get at least some of your tunes to a mastering engineer. producing and Mastering are 2 different jobs and good producers generally don't master their music. Sometimes it's best to work where you're good and leave the rest to people who are better than you.
Old 23rd March 2010
  #11
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XAXAU's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dietrich10 View Post
I am not a fan of mixing with limiter on your the mains. You should get best mix without.if you ever want to send the tracks to a ME many ask for version without the limiter on and the mix (when mixing with limiter on) sounds terrible when removing
I don´t know what kind of crappy mixes you get but if I take off my limiter (UAD PL) the mix sounds the same. I use 25ms release.

For beginners it´s great to produce with it on cause they hear right away when it goes crack and then they have to fix the problem by arranging, sidechaining, eqing, compressing and all that jazz.

To the OP: if you have a loud and punchy bassdrum the track will mix itself and you don´t have to worry at all about loudness. Just a touch of compression on the mixbus for glue, some plugin for color and some light limiting and you´re there. I also use the Voxengo Elephant 3 on the drumbus, limiting only the bassdrum and clap (when they´re hitting together) a few dB´s with 25ms release. The Elephant is a crispy limiter and sounds very nice. The UAD PL is softer sounding.
Old 23rd March 2010
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XAXAU View Post
Iif you have a loud and punchy bassdrum the track will mix itself and you don´t have to worry at all about loudness.
Yeah, and a good pair of Nikes will turn you into Usain Bolt
Old 23rd March 2010
  #13
Having mastered some Major Label Dance projects myself, I will say that you'll need to send it to a pro in order to get it sounding right. It takes a decent amount of EQ, compression, leveling etc etc to get it to compete with other dance songs.
Old 23rd March 2010
  #14
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Brian Cares's Avatar
 

For mastering your own stuff i´d recommend the DynamicSpectrumMapper.

Just capture tracks that sound good on clubsystems. Apply the curve to your own track und you are halfway there. Fiddle and twiddle a little and check your "masterings" against other tracks. This works pretty well for me.
Old 23rd March 2010
  #15
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dietrich10's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by XAXAU View Post
To the OP: if you have a loud and punchy bassdrum the track will mix itself and you don´t have to worry at all about loudness..
What genre are you producing where all based on the bassdrum?
Old 23rd March 2010
  #16
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miro's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by XAXAU View Post
It´s actually very easy to be as loud and clean as the industry Beatport standard. All you need is a loud bassdrum and the rest of the mix will fall into place. In the end all you need is like 3dB´s of limiting and nothing else on the mixbus. Oh and produce into the limiter from the start, as you hear (see) it breaking up things you need to figure out what´s causing it and fix it.
what?

Old 23rd March 2010
  #17
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fader48's Avatar
 

Passing the duties of mastering on to someone else has it's benefits but if you want to do it yourself - A-B IT!

Grab a great sounding track from one of your favorites and put it on a separate track, make sure it doesn't go through any effects. Throw that Ozone on your master bus or whatever you're using and go to work. Try to get it as close as you can. It can be done. Might take a while or not, and you may have to take a break.

You probably have to have a small grasp of EQ and Dynamics but for Dance music I can tell you this - SIDE CHAIN COMPRESSOR with the kick as the trigger...
Old 23rd March 2010
  #18
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misjah's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by XAXAU View Post

To the OP: if you have a loud and punchy bassdrum the track will mix itself and you don´t have to worry at all about loudness. Just a touch of compression on the mixbus for glue, some plugin for color and some light limiting and you´re there. I also use the Voxengo Elephant 3 on the drumbus, limiting only the bassdrum and clap (when they´re hitting together) a few dB´s with 25ms release. The Elephant is a crispy limiter and sounds very nice. The UAD PL is softer sounding.

nah just skip mastering all together...just use a Ozone preset thumbsup lol!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Romain74 View Post
I Produce dance music, and because i haven't a big budget, i've to do my mastering myself !
its like you build your own racing motorcycle but dont have money for wheels so u put some bicycle wheels under it.
Old 23rd March 2010
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by XAXAU View Post
It´s actually very easy to be as loud and clean as the industry Beatport standard. All you need is a loud bassdrum and the rest of the mix will fall into place. In the end all you need is like 3dB´s of limiting and nothing else on the mixbus. Oh and produce into the limiter from the start, as you hear (see) it breaking up things you need to figure out what´s causing it and fix it. And like Misjah said it takes a little practice.

Check my posts on bassdrums to know how to get there.
Lol hilarious reply, I really hope people don't think that loud Bass drums have anything to do with loud Masters... It's about the mix as a whole!
Old 23rd March 2010
  #20
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fader48's Avatar
 

I agree, get the mix sounding as balanced as you can - as a whole.

Keep in mind, the systems this music is playing on generally have exaggerated low end. The all important Kick drum will come out for sure.
Old 23rd March 2010
  #21
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XAXAU's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta Heavy View Post
Yeah, and a good pair of Nikes will turn you into Usain Bolt
OP asked about how to achieve loudness.
Old 23rd March 2010
  #22
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XAXAU's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Lago View Post
I will say that you'll need to send it to a pro in order to get it sounding right. It takes a decent amount of EQ, compression, leveling etc etc to get it to compete with other dance songs.
If you know what you´re doing then not really, no.
Old 23rd March 2010
  #23
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XAXAU's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dietrich10 View Post
What genre are you producing where all based on the bassdrum?
Have you heard of house?
Old 23rd March 2010
  #24
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XAXAU's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by misjah View Post
nah just skip mastering all together...just use a Ozone preset thumbsup lol!
Yeah, send him one of yours. Seriously, he was asking about loudness.
Old 23rd March 2010
  #25
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XAXAU's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Lago View Post
Lol hilarious reply, I really hope people don't think that loud Bass drums have anything to do with loud Masters... It's about the mix as a whole!
You´re right. Having a bassdrum with maximum voltage and minumum illusion is the best way to start the mix off with.
Old 23rd March 2010
  #26
Quote:
Originally Posted by XAXAU View Post
If you know what you´re doing then not really, no.
Let us hear one of your House songs, just for kicks heh Prove us all wrong if you will!
Old 23rd March 2010
  #27
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dietrich10's Avatar
thumbsup
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Lago View Post
Let us hear one of your House songs, just for kicks heh Prove us all wrong if you will!
Old 23rd March 2010
  #28
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miro's Avatar
 

xaxau,

seriously....it's the EXACT opposite of what you're claiming here.
the THINNEST tracks with alot HIGH END are the loudest (of course, since there's no kickdrum stealing all the room) and if you come up with beatport: perfect example of what i'm saying now. there's TONS of "i can master it better" tracks, done by kids which abuse their tools. especially the top end.
Old 23rd March 2010
  #29
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miro's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by XAXAU View Post
You´re right. Having a bassdrum with maximum voltage and minumum illusion is the best way to start the mix off with.
hahaha..what the f***!? you remid me of pals i had when we were teenagers, listening to late 80's rap music and he said: yo...this is how the EQ's gotta be set on my ghetto blaster (graphic EQ - bass ALL the way up, mids and highs ALL the way down!) LOL

boomy is not "loud"

to the OP:

try your best in making an open sounding, clean mix. if that's given you've got half the job done.
if you RELY on mastering as the cure for your "not that good mix", you've lost already. (aswell as: oh my multiband will cure everything - NO GOOD!)

Your DAW is ok (no matter what you're using!)
which speakers are you using? (important question!)

then...you say you're happy with your mix but when you compare to top notch reference tracks you notice your mix/master sucks.
this means: you can't be really happy with the mix! IF your mix is "ok" and not THAT far from your reference: you're maybe close enough that the rest can be done in mastering...


peace
Old 23rd March 2010
  #30
Gear Maniac
 
OberHeim-Kenobi's Avatar
 

Leave room for your important sounds, and use groups (and comp) taking freq bands, not for instrument family, it will help a lot.

Cheers.
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