The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Vote on the solutions to the loudness war.... Dynamics Plugins
View Poll Results: Vote on Loudness Normalizatoin
No LN, over my dead body.
143 Votes - 41.21%
I want LN, with a consumer option to defeat.
137 Votes - 39.48%
I want LN required and undefeatable in all consumer gear.
28 Votes - 8.07%
No opinion, whatever will be will be.
39 Votes - 11.24%
Voters: 347. You may not vote on this poll

Old 1st December 2009
  #271
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by JALFK View Post
So Patrik, you think shameless loudness squishing has a lot to do with furthering creative freedom?
No, that's not the point.

I'm in favor for anyone to settle anywhere within the boundaries of any target media.

The anti-loudness troops ain't and it seems recruiting a new jugend is of great importace ta save the world from itself.

If I dislike anything I stop to listen to it. I don't call the engineers to say that they are hacks. I don't propose anything. I don't shove anything down peoples throats. If others are having trouble to NOT listen to what they DON'T like that is THEIR problem.

I have favorite music all over the dynamic field and I think it's great when things are allowed to sound different from each other.


Regards
Patrik
Old 1st December 2009
  #272
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrikT View Post
No, that's not the point.

I'm in favor for anyone to settle anywhere within the boundaries of any target media.

The anti-loudness troops ain't and it seems recruiting a new jugend is of great importace ta save the world from itself.

If I dislike anything I stop to listen to it. I don't call the engineers to say that they are hacks. I don't propose anything. I don't shove anything down peoples throats. If others are having trouble to NOT listen to what they DON'T like that is THEIR problem.

I have favorite music all over the dynamic field and I think it's great when things are allowed to sound different from each other.


Regards
Patrik
dude, i just dont see how you can argue the point. This isn't part of the new world order. this isn't passing legislation which says "you may not use reverb on guitars". this is just leveling the playing flield for the greater good with absolutely no down points, except "I want to squish the hell out of my music". Well good. Go ahead. With a loudness matcher you still can!

It will just be brought back down to earth and sound as bad as it does.

how is this imposing a restriction. the user can still turn up their volume knob anyway!

so if you want to listen to death magnetic REALLY LOUD, you still have a volume knob.

I'm not arguing, but totally fail to see a valid objection.

Old 1st December 2009
  #273
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by JALFK View Post
I'm not arguing, but totally fail to see a valid objection.
I believe in freedom. For artists, producers, engineers and consumers.

Do you listen a lot to music you don't like?

Are you going to like something "squished" more when it has been dropped 10 dB by the algorithm?

Are you planning to get yourself a refrigerator built-in your armchair so you don't have to walk to the kitchen?

Etc.


Regards
Patrik
Old 1st December 2009
  #274
Gear Maniac
 
SSMastering's Avatar
 

I'm personally against Loudness Normalization, but I think it should be left up to the artist or producer to decide whether they want their album smashed. Sometimes, too much limiting can take away the original punch and energy from the music. I think mastering engineers should send different versions to the producer, one that's super-loud, and one with more dynamic energy. But who knows. Consumers are starting to realize how it's ruining music. It started with that new Metallica album. I see hope for the future...except for everything now being stripped down to mp3 for iTunes. It won't end.
Old 1st December 2009
  #275
Deleted User
Guest
@SSMastering - the point is consumers haven't realize and wont ever, so the industry needs to sort out the mess that the industry created. The consumer never had a part or say in this, so it's not their war. (wow that sounds like something else going on right now)

and... just IMHO and not trying to dfegad you off, Patrik. heh

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrikT View Post
I believe in freedom. For artists, producers, engineers and consumers.
As said, I don't find squishing "freedom" - infact the opposite, it will remove the pressure that's point on people who don't want squishing. Many artists don't want this crap, but their record label/producer had the final say (and/or the artist is ill-informed). So LN = more freedom IMHO, without being constrained to 1db dynamic range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrikT View Post
Do you listen a lot to music you don't like?
Yes - not as often as music I love, but there are many situations I am inclined to work with or listen to music I wouldn't necessarily dance about to in my living room but I don't understand what this has to do with LN.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrikT View Post
Are you going to like something "squished" more when it has been dropped 10 dB by the algorithm?
I'd like it the same. It doesn't chance anything, as if I had a problem with a 10db drop, I'd compensate by turning that big knob on my hifi clockwise. OR I'd disable the LN, as previously said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrikT View Post
Are you planning to get yourself a refrigerator built-in your armchair so you don't have to walk to the kitchen?
As far as I'm concerned it has nothing to do with convenience. Having said that, fridge-armchair does sound like a good idea.

Old 1st December 2009
  #276
Gear Addict
 
mischa janisch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JALFK View Post
Hey man, again, I only half agree.

I'm a ME too and would also want my work to be listened to properly, exactly intact.

But here's the fun bit.... 95% of consumers could give a rat's ass about our song levels. The remaining 5% who do actually care, are going to turn the damn thing off so there is still no argument against it! :-)

BTW, my statistics are completely genuine and not made up on the spot; because they come from the codex alimentarius stat base; and they would definitely never lie to us. :-P

So you'd like a software to be implemented that fixes a problem that (according to your post ) 95% don't care about and will be turned off by the remaining 5%?
Old 1st December 2009
  #277
Gear Maniac
 
SSMastering's Avatar
 

Hmm, maybe we should just smash the hell out of every record more and more until consumers start to realize it. So far, it's not a factor that has affected sales.
Old 1st December 2009
  #278
Gear Addict
 
mischa janisch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JALFK View Post
As said, I don't find squishing "freedom" - infact the opposite, it will remove the pressure that's point on people who don't want squishing. Many artists don't want this crap, but their record label/producer had the final say (and/or the artist is ill-informed). So LN = more freedom IMHO, without being constrained to 1db dynamic range.
I'm not sure about the labels you do work for, but I can't recall many occations where an A&R (major or indepenent) has been asking me to raise the level on a master - my experience has been the opposite: it's usually always the artist and sometimes the producer who are asking for more volume.

Though I once had an A&R from a major company asking me specifically NOT to compress or EQ the master as everyone was already happy, but just to raise the volume (as if I just had write it into some metadata) - of course the track has already been heavily limited prior to mastering... heh
Old 1st December 2009
  #279
Gear Addict
 
mischa janisch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SSMastering View Post
Hmm, maybe we should just smash the hell out of every record more and more until consumers start to realize it. So far, it's not a factor that has affected sales.
I think you might be onto something - there's got to be a way to get tough legislation on psycho-acoustically-level-matched-microdynamics-enhanced music through. Maybe a 'good taste' algorithm can be slipped in as well. After all, what do artists and producers really know about this?
Old 1st December 2009
  #280
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by mischa janisch View Post
So you'd like a software to be implemented that fixes a problem that (according to your post ) 95% don't care about and will be turned off by the remaining 5%?
You have taken my post out of context.

The reason this "statistic" supports my approval of LN, is because 100% of people won't be affected by the simple and effective solution to the massive problem our industry created, that had nothing to do with the consumer in the first place, which has lowered the standard of audio quality by a farcical magnitude.

Again, IMHO, people who do not support LN are either clinging to ill-informed beliefs, or profit from the slaughtering of music; and are not confident enough as mastering engineers to create superb results alone, without defaulting to playing the psychoacoustic con card to fool their customers into liking their stinking pile of cow crap master. dfegad

OK, a little over the top to get my point accross, no offense intended, but do you see which angle I'm coming from now?

Old 2nd December 2009
  #281
Gear Addict
 
mischa janisch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JALFK View Post
You have taken my post out of context.

The reason this "statistic" supports my approval of LN, is because 100% of people won't be affected by the simple and effective solution to the massive problem our industry created, that had nothing to do with the consumer in the first place, which has lowered the standard of audio quality by a farcical magnitude.

Again, IMHO, people who do not support LN are either clinging to ill-informed beliefs, or profit from the slaughtering of music; and are not confident enough as mastering engineers to create superb results alone, without defaulting to playing the psychoacoustic con card to fool their customers into liking their stinking pile of cow crap master. dfegad

OK, a little over the top to get my point accross, no offense intended, but do you see which angle I'm coming from now?

Thanks for so much thought about my confidence as a mastering engineer - I'm greatfully awaiting immediate cure in forrm of LN. heh

Seriously, maybe you could just accept that not everyone supports YOUR opinion - which doesn't necessarily mean that everyone who has different thoughts is putting out pile of cow crap masters to keep making profit from slaughtering of music. Please lighten up and be a little more tolerant about this.

As far as I am concerned there are far more urgent problems the music industry is currently facing than LN...
Old 2nd December 2009
  #282
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by JALFK View Post
Again, IMHO, people who do not support LN are either clinging to ill-informed beliefs, or profit from the slaughtering of music; and are not confident enough as mastering engineers to create superb results alone, without defaulting to playing the psychoacoustic con card to fool their customers into liking their stinking pile of cow crap master. dfegad
So you seriously believe that people who think LN is a not-so-good idea is defaulting to smashing everything into bricks. How extremely narrow-minded and arrogant of you.

I have earlier in this thread raised concern about LN raising levels on material with overhead. All you do is relating to the "loud crap" being down-gained.

Regarding confidence: Maybe you are not confident enough to cut songs and records at various levels, for the songs and records own good? Maybe you need a K-14 to give you the thumbs up?

You make things look like a gigantic bloodbath. There are hundreds of "un-squished" releases seeing daylight every day. All you do is to ignore that very fact instead of ignoring what you obviously don't like.


Regards
Patrik
Old 2nd December 2009
  #283
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by mischa janisch View Post
Thanks for so much thought about my confidence as a mastering engineer - I'm greatfully awaiting immediate cure in forrm of LN. heh

Seriously, maybe you could just accept that not everyone supports YOUR opinion - which doesn't necessarily mean that everyone who has different thoughts is putting out pile of cow crap masters to keep making profit from slaughtering of music. Please lighten up and be a little more tolerant about this.

As far as I am concerned there are far more urgent problems the music industry is currently facing than LN...
ha ha ha. hairy muff

I'd like to suggest that I usually love debate with people on both sides, and I love and accept being proven wrong, that's healthy and I learn more. It is just on this topic (almost exclusively) that I take no other answer.

Let me clarify... I do not want to force my opinion on others, but sort of find this topic a bit like a guy saying "Hey Farmer Jo, I should be allowed to rape your goats because I'm just expressing myself creatively"... Although the dude might think bestiality is creative expression, it's actually not. It's just degrading and not much fun for anyone else involved.

Old 2nd December 2009
  #284
Gear Addict
 
mischa janisch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JALFK View Post
ha ha ha. hairy muff

I'd like to suggest that I usually love debate with people on both sides, and I love and accept being proven wrong, that's healthy and I learn more. It is just on this topic (almost exclusively) that I take no other answer.

Let me clarify... I do not want to force my opinion on others, but sort of find this topic a bit like a guy saying "Hey Farmer Jo, I should be allowed to rape your goats because I'm just expressing myself creatively"... Although the dude might think bestiality is creative expression, it's actually not. It's just degrading and not much fun for anyone else involved.

I don't think this is leading anywhere...

I totally understand what you are saying - no need to use such analogies - it's just that I simply don't agree. Actually, first I even voted for option 2 in the poll - but after thinking about the effects on my work I came to believe that this would be a bad idea...

You're only focusing on the overly loud titles only, have a look at it from the other side as well. While I do put out loud masters, most of my work is 3-6db lower than Death Magnetic. I firmly believe that the ballad I cut at -11db and the slamming track I cut at -7db are exactly where they should be in terms of loudness relative to each other.

I can accept that you don't care that those two titles will have the same volume after LN - just to bring the level of death magnetic down as long as you can accept that I prefere that everyone gets the artists intention regarding the loudness of their tracks without having to tweak the software preferences. But I guess neither of our opinions will have much of an impact...
Old 2nd December 2009
  #285
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mischa janisch View Post
...Maybe a 'good taste' algorithm can be slipped in as well. After all, what do artists and producers really know about this?
That is a legitimate question...
Old 2nd December 2009
  #286
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by mischa janisch View Post
Actually, first I even voted for option 2 in the poll - but after thinking about the effects on my work I came to believe that this would be a bad idea...

You're only focusing on the overly loud titles only, have a look at it from the other side as well. While I do put out loud masters, most of my work is 3-6db lower than Death Magnetic. I firmly believe that the ballad I cut at -11db and the slamming track I cut at -7db are exactly where they should be in terms of loudness relative to each other.
Interesting hearing you're views but I believe you are fundamentally wrong for 2 reasons:
  • you cut too loud and are missing the whole point (transients)
  • and most importantly, it is the listener who has the volume knob. not you!

As a listener, if I want to play songs for the deaf at 40db and follow it up with some bob dylan at 100db, that's my choice not yours. Because I have a moderately sized shiny knob; and you may not touch it. tutt

furthermore:

I have far louder acoustic folk in my personal record collection than compared to my 80s hardcore punk records. so your theory is knackered from the word go.

Do me a favor and listen to nevermind. now run it through your brickwall for your -7db compliance.

Old 2nd December 2009
  #287
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by JALFK View Post
As a listener, if I want to play songs for the deaf at 40db and follow it up with some bob dylan at 100db, that's my choice not yours.
But you are supporting a computer ear to level them for you.

Right.

Quote:
I have far louder acoustic folk in my personal record collection than compared to my 80s hardcore punk records. so your theory is knackered from the word go.
Sometimes acoustic folk might be cut louder than punk without level degradation.

Your theories are knack-wursts at most.

Quote:
you cut too loud and are missing the whole point (transients)
The whole point with mastering is the whole.

What is your favorite transient tool?


Regards
Patrik
Old 2nd December 2009
  #288
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrikT View Post
But you are supporting a computer ear to level them for you.

Right.
No! We've already been over this point! The listener still has the volume knob; and that was my point. Everything is just put on a level playing field, and the listener has exclusive control over loudness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrikT View Post
Sometimes acoustic folk might be cut louder than punk without level degradation.
mastering isn't about "we should turn it up as loud as possible until it's on the threshold of sonic degradation". how loud something could be theoretically mastered is totally totally not the point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrikT View Post
The whole point with mastering is the whole.

What is your favorite transient tool?
What are you talking about? I'm not suggesting LN is good for me to induce transients. I'm just talking about preserving natural dynamics.

Maybe I'm in the minority but I like drums to sound like drums. Let's put my opinions in context. One of my favorite recording and mixing engineers is steve albini, I personally love (most of) his work. (Edit: at least what I've heard, he's worked will over 34 hundred thousand million bands; figure quoted from gordon brown's department of statistics)

I would rather listen to a shellac album through LN than have some dumb ass make it "loud".

Further further further more, many people in this argument are completely forgetting that, in the words of our forum buddy BK, all this loudness crap is intrinsic.

"Loudness" has nothing to do with how loud the listener plays the CD!
Old 2nd December 2009
  #289
Deleted User
Guest
Do you M/S a lot?


Regards
Patrik
Old 2nd December 2009
  #290
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrikT View Post
Do you M/S a lot?
OT. But no. I think M/S is amazing and has been a lifesaver a few times. I'd say less than 5% of my masters feature M/S processing.

But if you are interested whether I use M/S when making my own music, I'd say I use some sort of mid side process in the production stage on maybe 8 out of 10 songs.

Why do you ask?
Old 2nd December 2009
  #291
Deleted User
Guest
Attached are the four opening tracks of my latest "folk" mastering.

As you can see I default to squish. I make bricks. I peak to -0.2 every time. I'm so loud your ears will fall right off your head and they'll burn in hell.

As you clearly see, I can not support dynamic range. Nor can I accept any transient of any kind.


Still the client was oh so happy. How on earth?


Best Regards
Patrik
Attached Thumbnails
Vote on the solutions to the loudness war....-wavef.jpg  
Old 2nd December 2009
  #292
Lives for gear
 
dcollins's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrikT View Post

As you clearly see, I can not support dynamic range. Nor can I accept any transient of any kind.

Still the client was oh so happy. How on earth?
Well, you get to keep your license for now.

But they will be watching, mark my words.


DC
Old 3rd December 2009
  #293
Lives for gear
 
macc's Avatar
 

Verified Member
What are all those black squiggles in front of the blue waveforms?
Old 3rd December 2009
  #294
Gear Maniac
 
SSMastering's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrikT View Post
Attached are the four opening tracks of my latest "folk" mastering.

As you can see I default to squish. I make bricks. I peak to -0.2 every time. I'm so loud your ears will fall right off your head and they'll burn in hell.

As you clearly see, I can not support dynamic range. Nor can I accept any transient of any kind.


Still the client was oh so happy. How on earth?


Best Regards
Patrik
Sarcasm? Those look like really healthy dynamics. I have no folk CDs in my collection, but I'm sure the ones available on the market aren't too loud. Different type of audience.
Old 3rd December 2009
  #295
Gear Addict
 
mischa janisch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JALFK View Post
Interesting hearing you're views but I believe you are fundamentally wrong for 2 reasons:
  • you cut too loud and are missing the whole point (transients)
  • and most importantly, it is the listener who has the volume knob. not you!

As a listener, if I want to play songs for the deaf at 40db and follow it up with some bob dylan at 100db, that's my choice not yours. Because I have a moderately sized shiny knob; and you may not touch it. tutt

furthermore:

I have far louder acoustic folk in my personal record collection than compared to my 80s hardcore punk records. so your theory is knackered from the word go.

Do me a favor and listen to nevermind. now run it through your brickwall for your -7db compliance.

What the F***? You must be a ****ing genious beeing able to judge my entire work without even listening AND knowing the source material!
Obviously any further discussion is obsolete, now that I discovered your pure, inspired wisdom. Also, your respectful and professional attitude is so overwhelming - I am sorry, but I just can't match...

Seriously, you're streching it quite a bit considering you don't even dare to use your real name. It's acceptable to sometimes push it a little while trying to get a point across, but I believe you are crossing a border when you start making fictional and insulting claims presented as facts!

But the again - you might just be trolling... Anyway, where is that user hide feature?
Old 3rd December 2009
  #296
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by mischa janisch View Post
What the F***? You must be a ****ing genious beeing able to judge my entire work without even listening AND knowing the source material!
Obviously any further discussion is obsolete, now that I discovered your pure, inspired wisdom. Also, your respectful and professional attitude is so overwhelming - I am sorry, but I just can't match...

Seriously, you're streching it quite a bit considering you don't even dare to use your real name. It's acceptable to sometimes push it a little while trying to get a point across, but I believe you are crossing a border when you start making fictional and insulting claims presented as facts!

But the again - you might just be trolling... Anyway, where is that user hide feature?
I find it alarming you take such bitter offense to me supporting quality over loudness.

Firstly, you are just wildly insulting me without addressing any of my points directly.

Secondly, my forum name is my initials and my sig links to my myspace page

thirdly I'm not a troll and actually (to my knowledge) share similar views on this topic to the author.

and finally, im not judging you in any way. PatrikT said he cut at -7db so I said he cuts too loud.

Please isolate specific points I made and feel free to argue back, but PLEASE do not call me a troll, insult me wildly and not make any contributions to the thread in the process!

tutt
Old 3rd December 2009
  #297
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by macc View Post
What are all those black squiggles in front of the blue waveforms?
LOL

@PatrikT.... these waveforms "look like they sound" OK. But I can't hear a waveform by looking at it. Just to clarify, I'm not trying to single anyone out here.

I just feel that by aggressively opposing the only feasible solution to this problem, is to deny there is indeed a problem.

So, is there a problem or not?

I personally think there is a rather large one, where gearslutz member send me waveform grabs of their folk or not. LN will be a fair and friendly ref in a game of football, who can be asked to leave at any time by the audience. I still don't see anything fundamentally wrong with that. And that is the issue we are discussing here guys!

Old 3rd December 2009
  #298
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by JALFK View Post
PatrikT said he cut at -7db so I said he cuts too loud.
No. Never. If so, go back and find it.

You are so beyond über-arrogant.

But it seems to be a pretty common strategy when building up the Dynamic Rescue Brigade.

Quote:
thirdly I'm not a troll and actually (to my knowledge) share similar views on this topic to the author.
Do the book come in handy at work?

Quote:
I personally think there is a rather large one, where gearslutz member send me waveform grabs of their folk or not.
You implied that eveyone not supporting the algortihmic ear were cutting hot by default.

Along with a thousand of other speculations which are rooted in...speculations.


Regards
Patrik

Last edited by Deleted User; 3rd December 2009 at 01:31 PM.. Reason: typo
Old 3rd December 2009
  #299
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrikT View Post
No. Never. If so, go back and find it.
Very sorry, Patrik. I got confused. It was mischa janisch who said this. Again appoligies, please take what I said concerning -7db to relate to mischa only! lol[/QUOTE]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrikT View Post
You are so beyond über-arrogant.
Not a constructive comment. Again, you are just firing insults at me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrikT View Post
But it seems to be a pretty common strategy when building up the Dynamic Rescue Brigade.
You say this mockingly... are you against saving dynamics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrikT View Post
Do the book come in handy at work?
Are you suggesting that BK's book is not applicable to everyday mastering work? If so, you are foolish. But I'd personally go as far as saying, if you don't know 90% of the information in the book, whether you've read it or not, you probably shouldn't call yourself a mastering engineer. Have you read it? It's probably the best example of defining a mastering engineer's skill-set.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrikT View Post
You implied that eveyone not supporting the algortihmic ear were cutting hot by default.
No I didn't. Again out of context. I suggested the only reason to be against LN would be to allow hot mastering to continue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrikT View Post
Along with a thousand of other specualtions which are rooted in...specualtions.
which speculations? the ones about the loudness war destroying some of my favorite records? is that a speculation or a fact? take the mars volta to instance. I'd go as far as saying frances the mute is as close to perfection as possible, but completely slammed and sounds horrible. why does this need to happen?

by calling me an arrogant whatever, you are saying situations like frances the mute are good....????!

Old 3rd December 2009
  #300
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by JALFK View Post
which speculations? the ones about the loudness war destroying some of my favorite records? is that a speculation or a fact?
So you have FAVORITE records that are "destroyed".

I think you lost right there.


Regards
Patrik
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
ianshepherd / Mastering forum
18
Quad / The Moan Zone
4
kenjkelly / Mastering forum
7

Forum Jump
Forum Jump