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Brian Gardner and widening? Equalisers (HW)
Old 19th May 2010
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turtlerock View Post
i have several bendini base boxes
they operate on a principle called magic

either that or they stay turned off for months on end ..
Yep!
I'll agree with that!

I took some pics of the insides of my Bedini (pre-mod), when I first got it.

When I manage to dig em out?
I'll post em up here.

Maybe DC will be able to see what's going on in that unit, from the pics?
Old 19th May 2010
  #152
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i kinda doubt it
bendini did a good good of making sure there is nothing to see inside
just his secret silver blocks and a board to hold them in
there is probably little monkeys inside them stretching their arms out wide or something kooky
Old 20th May 2010
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turtlerock View Post
i kinda doubt it
bendini did a good good of making sure there is nothing to see inside
just his secret silver blocks and a board to hold them in
there is probably little monkeys inside them stretching their arms out wide or something kooky
Yep! LOL
I guess there's really not that much to see inside one of those units!
Just a bunch of nice looking caps, some twisted wire and four sealed boxes!
Old 20th May 2010
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Table Of Tone View Post
It would be really hard for me to do before and after examples because my Bedini is now hard wired and integrated into my rig.
It's always on!
And? Are you saying that everything else is also always on? Just take a piece of music and run it through your rig with only the Bedini active. Then we can hear the original and the one that went through your rig. Not exactly rocket science...

Alistair
Old 20th May 2010
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
And? Are you saying that everything else is also always on? Just take a piece of music and run it through your rig with only the Bedini active. Then we can hear the original and the one that went through your rig. Not exactly rocket science...

Alistair
Let me try to get permission from some artists where I used a fair bit of Bedini and I can maybe put a link up with un-mastered and mastered.

That's the best I can do right now as I'm pretty busy.
Old 20th May 2010
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Table Of Tone View Post
Let me try to get permission from some artists where I used a fair bit of Bedini and I can maybe put a link up with un-mastered and mastered.
The pink-noise noise generator is not copyright controlled.


DC
Old 20th May 2010
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
The pink-noise noise generator is not copyright controlled.


DC
Nor is the sinewave and the impulse
Old 21st May 2010
  #158
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Originally Posted by DrDeltaM View Post
Nor is the sinewave and the impulse
as long as it has audible stereo to widen
Old 22nd May 2010
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Table Of Tone View Post
I've got an artist to agree so here's the link:
Download Cut Using Bedini.zip from Sendspace.com - send big files the easy way

The mix is exactly how it came in.
The mastered version has a little more Bedini than I would normally use but the client loved it!
Thanks a bunch!

Downloading...

Alistair
Old 22nd May 2010
  #160
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I'm gonna leave the link active for one more day, then I'm gonna de-activate it.
Old 23rd May 2010
  #161
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I waited 15 minutes for your files hoping to learn something. I did not. This made me grumpy.

Without a direct Bedini_on & Bedini_off example we can't *actually* know what the box does or sounds like. The files you've provided allow little useful information to be gathered as one is a mix and the other has multiple elements of your mastering chain engaged (no ?). Extracting the difference a Bedini makes from this test is IMPOSSIBLE.

Table of Tone,
I respect your judgement and find your posts to be informative and even have developed an awareness of your online personality, but as far as a scientific test goes this example you've provided tells me nothing about the Bedini.

The patents on the Bedini stereo spread method are here:

espacenet — Description
Old 23rd May 2010
  #162
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I have an approximate idea of what the BASE is doing especially now knowing that it won't convert a mono signal to stereo. It's hard to really test it without running some test signals through a real unit and I'm dumb when it comes to these kinds of things. I don't even know what would be the best kind of test signal to ask Tone to run through his unit.
Old 23rd May 2010
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSPaudio View Post
I waited 15 minutes for your files hoping to learn something. I did not. This made me grumpy.

Without a direct Bedini_on & Bedini_off example we can't *actually* know what the box does or sounds like. The files you've provided allow little useful information to be gathered as one is a mix and the other has multiple elements of your mastering chain engaged (no ?). Extracting the difference a Bedini makes from this test is IMPOSSIBLE.

Table of Tone,
I respect your judgement and find your posts to be informative and even have developed an awareness of your online personality, but as far as a scientific test goes this example you've provided tells me nothing about the Bedini.
Well, I'm sorry about that, but it's the best I can do right now!

Even if I ran the mix with just the Bedini in (as Alistair pointed out I should do) you would still have to take the DA/AD into account, and although it's Lavry, it's still gonna change things a little (everthing does), so I just posted the mix as it came in along with the mastered version that was cut last year.

If it helps, the signal path at the time was sB playing back the mix (44.1/24) on a G5, Lynx AES16 PCIe, Lavry DA11, Analogue Attenuator (Elma's put together myself), Bedini Base, just a little EQing using a Mastering Mass Pass (moded with better caps, etc, and also made transformerless), more clean gain than comp, using a Maselec MLA-2, Lavry AD122 (MX version), AES to Lynx L22, Capture Puter running AudioCube WaveLab at 44.1/32 float, no plugs, assemble N dither to 16 and that's it.

If I get some time the next time I tear my rig apart to service certain parts of it, I'll try to run some tones through to give you guys a more scientific AB test.
Old 23rd May 2010
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Table Of Tone View Post
Well, I'm sorry about that, but it's the best I can do right now!

Even if I ran the mix with just the Bedini in (as Alistair pointed out I should do) you would still have to take the DA/AD into account, and although it's Lavry, it's still gonna change things a little (everthing does), so I just posted the mix as it came in along with the mastered version that was cut last year.

If it helps, the signal path at the time was sB playing back the mix (44.1/24) on a G5, Lynx AES16 PCIe, Lavry DA11, Analogue Attenuator (Elma's put together myself), Bedini Base, just a little EQing using a Mastering Mass Pass (moded with better caps, etc, and also made transformerless), more clean gain than comp, using a Maselec MLA-2, Lavry AD122 (MX version), AES to Lynx L22, Capture Puter running AudioCube WaveLab at 44.1/32 float, no plugs, assemble N dither to 16 and that's it.

If I get some time the next time I tear my rig apart to service certain parts of it, I'll try to run some tones through to give you guys a more scientific AB test.
I think we are all mystified by your responses to test sample requests.

I would think that any experienced mastering engineer (and I know you are) should be able to mute/bypass all their gear except for 1 unit.

So why can't you just take that mix and run it through your chain with everything out/off/bypassed and caputure it and then do the same with the Bedini also muted/bypassed. That way they both have the sound of your converters and any unit that doesn't have a true bypass (very minimal sound anyway, if any).

That should be a 15 minute endeavor!

I'm interested in hearing only the Bedini as I am a big fan of adding width/depth, etc, when appropriate and would love to hear if this box is better or maybe just different than my current combo of the K-unit and TC 6000 M/S.

I wouldn't normally ask but you did offer to do this when you had a chance.

Thanks,
Old 23rd May 2010
  #165
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^^^^^

I think T of T mentioned that he has several rigs and the Bedini is always on in the particular un-balanced rig that it is hardwired into (maybe a switch was taken out to make space for a mod - I'm just guessing..)...so to do an true a/b would require him to go in and rewire that system.

Pink noise or another source of audio might work but there could be other particularities about the Bedini rig that we're not aware of... *This is all just conjecture, but that's how I'm seeing it.
Old 23rd May 2010
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waltz Mastering View Post
^^^^^

I think T of T mentioned that he has several rigs and the Bedini is always on in the particular un-balanced rig that it is hardwired into (maybe a switch was taken out to make space for a mod - I'm just guessing..)...so to do an true a/b would require him to go in and rewire that system.

Pink noise or another source of audio might work but there could be other particularities about the Bedini rig that we're not aware of... *This is all just conjecture, but that's how I'm seeing it.
He must be able to easily add or take out the unit in order to see if it's working for a track and if so, should be able to give us a Bedini in and out example. If not, it must be a very cumbersome system!
Old 23rd May 2010
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Krehm View Post
He must be able to easily add or take out the unit in order to see if it's working for a track and if so, should be able to give us a Bedini in and out example. If not, it must be a very cumbersome system!
That's one way to do it, but you can also have a monitor source/process a/b split set up. There's so many ways to configure things,.. I would trust though that T of T knows what he's doing.. he's the designer behind the Orange tube amps if I remember correctly, and those are pretty sweet sounding in my book ; )
Old 23rd May 2010
  #168
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I know all you guys are baying for a "scientific" with/without magic doo-dah box test, but, just thought I'd contribute a totally unscientific, subjective impression:

I have no idea how the Bedini works, and I've never even seen one, but I've had a few of my mixes mastered by T of T lately, by different artists and ranging from noisy rock to delicate acoustic stuff. As well as being just generally, extremely happy with how they sounded, I did particularly notice the stereo treatment he did, as widening is normally something I dislike, since it always seems to mess with my centre, and reduce any sense of 3D depth that I've worked hard to create.

I can't fault it - and believe me, I'd like to. As a mixer, whenever I get a track back from mastering the first listen is always with the frame of mind "what have you done to my beautiful mix, you bastard?".

Whatever he's doing to the imaging, it seems to be all give and no take (even though logic tells me this is impossible!) - just adding a slight wraparound to the sound - like hearing it in an auditorium, with a little more space around the sound, and not screwing anything up. I don't know how to describe this stuff... anyway, my purpose in chipping in here was not to be remotely scientific, so perhaps I'm off-topic here, and I can't comment on how it compares to what Brian Gardner might do to my mixes, since I haven't had the pleasure.

I also realise that it's hard to isolate one element in the mastering process, since he's doing a load of other stuff to it as well, and all I have to compare is what I sent over with what I got back. AND that it's really more about the guy turning the knobs, than what the knobs are attached to - ie. someone else might use this same box to destroy my mix.

Anyway - just thought I'd weigh in from another angle, and I hope someone regards that as a constructive addition to the debate.
Old 24th May 2010
  #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Krehm View Post
it must be a very cumbersome system!
It is a very cumbersome system and, although I'm a tech by trade, I'm a pretty useless one when it comes to anything but tube guitar amps!

I don't approach mastering in a technical, scientific or even practical way, when it comes down to how my rig is set up because I don't want too many options!

I just want whatever goes through it to sound as good as possible, with as little loss as possible.

I know that may not sit so good with the guys that take a more scientific approach but that's just me!
Old 24th May 2010
  #170
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Interesting. Of course it is hard to tell where the Bedini starts and all the other stuff in the chain ends but this is still interesting to hear.

I am not sure it is exactly to my taste as it fuzzes the placement of things to my ear. It also makes things sound a bit more distant. Or maybe it is just the amount used in this mix (or the way it interacted with the other processing).

Anyway, I think i would like to have one of these for mixing!

Alistair
Old 24th May 2010
  #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Table Of Tone View Post
I don't approach mastering in a technical, scientific or even practical way, when it comes down to how my rig is set up because I don't want too many options!

I just want whatever goes through it to sound as good as possible, with as little loss as possible.

I know that may not sit so good with the guys that take a more scientific approach but that's just me!
You've found your way to good sound through trial and error which is technically scientific even if on a subliminal level, or in your case a higher level thought process.

We need both approaches. It's neat to weigh in at the extremes of the scale, for the sake of the discussion, but greatness happens (or fails to happen) in between... and how we get there.
Old 25th May 2010
  #172
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Holding a carrot out in front of the forum and then not delivering is pretty funny. This thread reads like someone found a 'secret weapon', (through this forum), and then decided they don't want to reciprocate, (share information with the same forum), to keep the competition, (who read this forum), from hearing the new found Wunderbox.

I like carrots. Please, just one bite?
Old 25th May 2010
  #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSPaudio View Post
Holding a carrot out in front of the forum and then not delivering is pretty funny. This thread reads like someone found a 'secret weapon', (through this forum), and then decided they don't want to reciprocate, (share information with the same forum), to keep the competition, (who read this forum), from hearing the new found Wunderbox.

I like carrots. Please, just one bite?
That's not entirely fair!
You'll often find out more about what a piece of gear does from hearing an actual mastered track than you will from running and posting test tones because that's the way it will be used in the real world.

That's the real test really!
We finish records off.
That's actually what we do!

At the end of the day, I still don't know for sure if it's exactly the same kind of stereo spread that Brian Gardner gets because I don't know exactly what mods have been done to his Bedini, or the rest of his rig?
Probably never will?

All I can say is, It's pretty close!

Oh no!
25 posts N I'll have hit the 1000!
WTF....!I need to get out more!
Old 25th May 2010
  #174
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No worries mate, didn't mean to push you over 1k.

Understanding/or/replicating a Bedini B.A.S.E will be about as difficult as a building a Bedini oscillator until we get some concrete data.

If the interferometry aspect of his circuits is actually real and not just marketing speak I would love to understand it better.
Old 25th May 2010
  #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSPaudio View Post
Understanding/or/replicating a Bedini B.A.S.E will be about as difficult as a building a Bedini oscillator until we get some concrete data.

If the interferometry aspect of his circuits is actually real and not just marketing speak I would love to understand it better.
Except for they are both patented. Not much more concrete than having the schematics. Understand a schematic, and you will understand B.A.S.E..

Also don't get hung up on the word "interferometry", it's just marketing bs made to over-complicate what's actually happening.
Old 25th May 2010
  #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Table Of Tone View Post
That's not entirely fair!
Ok so what EQ plugins do you use?

Quote:
You'll often find out more about what a piece of gear does from hearing an actual mastered track than you will from running and posting test tones because that's the way it will be used in the real world.
That is a false dichotomy. I asked you to run music through the box. Not test tones.

Alistair
Old 25th May 2010
  #177
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I'd be curious to know if the Bedini box does anything beyond the normal tricks (such as adding distortion to the S or doing some narrowing band boosts in the S) which any of us can do with an M/S matrix and without spending 6k.

The Bedini page looks REALLY old, like pre 2000. Is this box still available? Does it still cost 6K$?

Some of the other stuff on their site looks decidedly dodgey, like this:
BEDINI ELECTRONICS, INC..

DC, they list Marcussen as a user, did you ever use it over there?
Old 26th May 2010
  #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Ok so what EQ plugins do you use?


That is a false dichotomy. I asked you to run music through the box. Not test tones.

Alistair
I don't normally use any EQ plugins.

I never said it was you that was asking for test tones.

I think that you guys should try N find a Bedini of your own if you really wanna know exactly what it does.

You chaps are not gonna be happy with anything I post so I'm done with this thread now!

Cheers
Old 26th May 2010
  #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Table Of Tone View Post
I don't normally use any EQ plugins.

I never said it was you that was asking for test tones.

You chaps are not gonna be happy with anything I post so I'm done with this thread now!

Cheers
You are just side stepping. Why don't you be honest and admit you don't want to share your toys?

Quote:
I think that you guys should try N find a Bedini of your own if you really wanna know exactly what it does.
Ah there you go. Honesty is best.

Alistair
Old 26th August 2011
  #180
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I have a B.A.S.E. first for sale. I hardly use it as a rec/mixing engineer ..
Is anybody still looking for it ?
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