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Brian Gardner and widening? Equalisers (HW)
Old 17th November 2009
  #31
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A tom roll at the end or at the beginning of a song file could also be selected as a region and spread wider without doing anything to the rest of the audio file. Since the stereo image of a master is also amplified when you boost levels {not made wider} the illusion of a wider track is complete. However, I find that selecting and adding a reverb effect only to the region of interest {such as a single voice, a percussion hit or a solo instrument} could be just as effective, more dramatic and if I understood Table of Tone correctly, it could have been what Gardner did since the song ended with a bit of a dry tom hit. But, this is speculation on my part, of course. The only clue I have is that Table said:
Quote:
Brians cut got a perfect halo in the phase meter
This tells me that there was an effect added to the side channels that wasn't there before. Perhaps if we could hear all 3 clips so that everybody can make a better determination. How about it Table of Tone?

Regards,
Old 17th November 2009
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
And then there is this;

The ADT W731

No modifications needed...
Can the ADT W731 be made to do exactly the same thing, sonically, as the Bedini?
Old 17th November 2009
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea View Post
A tom roll at the end or at the beginning of a song file could also be selected as a region and spread wider without doing anything to the rest of the audio file. Since the stereo image of a master is also amplified when you boost levels {not made wider} the illusion of a wider track is complete. However, I find that selecting and adding a reverb effect only to the region of interest {such as a single voice, a percussion hit or a solo instrument} could be just as effective, more dramatic and if I understood Table of Tone correctly, it could have been what Gardner did since the song ended with a bit of a dry tom hit. But, this is speculation on my part, of course. The only clue I have is that Table said: This tells me that there was an effect added that wasn't there before. Perhaps if we could hear all 3 clips so that everybody can make a better determination. How about it Table of Tone?

Regards,
I wouldn't post the cuts without the clients permission!

I could ask him but as the rest of the album has yet to be cut, I don't think he'd say yes.

I know what you are saying, with regards to something being added at the tail but I don't think that's the case here.

It was a very good mix and also the opening track on the record.
Andy obviously felt that widening was not needed.
I felt that only a little was needed.
Brian used a little more than I did and whatever he did use, simply sounded better than what I used!

I was happy with my master when I handed it in!
I still stand by it and wouldn't have done it differently.

Having now heard all three cuts, I think that Brian's master sounds better than either Andy's or mine!

I was able to pick out which cut was Brian's, with no problems.
I emailed the client who got straight back to me to say "You are absolutely correct! well done! Nice ears!"

Hence, the quest for the holy grail of widening tools!
Old 17th November 2009
  #34
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My tools for widening (apart from pure M/S level changes which i almost never do) are adding distortion to the S, or picking out different frequency ranges in the M & S to accentuate/differentiate what's there and hence (hopefully) widen it.

Never had much luck with separate M/S compression for widening, apart from with plugins like Ammunition. One day i might have time to play with that a bit more.

My masters normally sound "wider" without me consciously trying to widen, it's just a by-product of the approach / chain
Old 17th November 2009
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Table Of Tone View Post
I wouldn't post the cuts without the clients permission!
I could ask him but as the rest of the album has yet to be cut, I don't think he'd say yes.
I know what you are saying, with regards to something being added at the tail but I don't think that's the case here.
It was a very good mix and also the opening track on the record.
When you said :
Quote:
There is a hang on the floor tom, right at the end of the track and Brians cut got a perfect halo in the phase meter.
I didn't think you were talking about the whole track but just the last note at the end. That's what prompted me to say what I did.

Nevertheless, if the whole thing sounds wider without losing too much center, then it sounds to me like too good to be true. I need to hear a little snippet to make a better determination of what we are talking about. There is no free lunch, you know. If the separation of instruments across the stereo field in any mix is poor to begin with, no M/S mastering will make it sound wide + great. Again, if there is a magic wand for stereo enhancement, then I want to try it.

Regards,
Old 17th November 2009
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea View Post
When you said : I didn't think you were talking about the whole track but just the last note at the end. That's what prompted me to say what I did.

Nevertheless, if the whole thing sounds wider without losing too much center, then it sounds to me like too good to be true. I need to hear a little snippet to make a better determination of what we are talking about. There is no free lunch, you know. If the separation of instruments across the stereo field in any mix is poor to begin with, no M/S mastering will make it sound wide + great. Again, if there is a magic wand for stereo enhancement, then I want to try it.

Regards,
Just checkout some of Brian Gardner's mastering.

He makes em sound wide and good, in a way that no one else, I've heard can!
Old 17th November 2009
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Table Of Tone View Post
Just checkout some of Brian Gardner's mastering.

He makes em sound wide and good, in a way that no one else, I've heard can!
Well, I respect every engineer's work famous or not. What you suggest IMO, is that for some reason whatever he touches becomes magically wider. Could it be attributed to the high caliber quality of the mixing he gets? I don't know the answer. But, I do know this, when you are a good ME, just by boosting and tweaking the right frequencies you can increase the perception of width without changing the center channel information. But, nothing that changes the stereo balance to the extent that it's so much greater it's like another mix. Again, it will remain speculation until we hear clips. The proof is in the pudding, Table of Tone.
Old 17th November 2009
  #38
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Originally Posted by turtlerock View Post
fyi steve - and really not trying make this a bendini thread , because there is no actual evidence here that brian even used one on the track in question

but the bedini is extremely clean ( after we modded the input and output gain stages ) and it is tonally super straight as well
My comments were solely based on the schematic DC linked to, I've never heard one in person.

I was joking about the 5532's - there's so many boxes that use them that sound fine that use plenty of them - but some folks have a real bugaboo about them (and even IC's in general) - and admittedly there are opamp IC's available now that are cleaner than this venerable design. The TDA3810 was a curiosity to me though - but again I don't know anything about it - and if it's true there isn't one in there - or rather a discrete equivalent to it - then it's a red herring.

I've only seen a Bedini BASE in person one time - and this was at the second auction of the Sony Music Studio's excess gear. The unit was in horrible shape though with the knobs almost falling off - I think it went for something like $125 at the auction.

fwiw - If you do a search of GS on the BASE you don't find much - but you'll see Michael Wagener used to have one as well but didn't really like it all that much and took a big loss when he eventually sold it.

Anyway - I'm definitely interested in hearing one to hear what the fuss is about - but in the majority of cases my clients are wanting the stereo image as set in the mix to be retained rather than chnaged in mastering - and for the cases where they are looking for something different usually simply eq'ing M/S differently, or changing relative gains of M/S, or in more extreme cases putting it through the ol' SPL SX2, can make them happy with the results - so the idea of even putting $1500 towards one seems like it could be spent better elsewhere. Obviously OMMV!!

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 17th November 2009
  #39
Edward... I've been in Brian's sessions, there's really no tricky region editing, etc. unless there was a "problem". You have to remember... he's an old school engineer.
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Old 17th November 2009
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeloocproducer View Post
Edward... I've been in Brian's sessions, there's really no tricky region editing, etc. unless there was a "problem". You have to remember... he's an old school engineer.
I don't think that I ever questioned BG's engineering skills. The thing I have learned on this forum is that it's best to try to get anyone who makes a judgment call or forms an opinion on someone else's work, to post a clip to support what it's been discussed. I feel that if BK was called on it at the Shinola thread, Table of Tone should be called on it as well in order to dissipate all doubts and further speculation. There was also the engineer at Metropolis mentioned in this thread and it would be appropriate if everyone heard what he did. Therefore, it's only fair to provide the before and the after sample clips to objectively listen and to arrive to a consensus of what creates the 'wider side channels without much loss of center' effect. I suspect there is a bit of m/s manipulation, good equalization and level boost. Nothing too "old school" about it.
Old 17th November 2009
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea View Post
I don't think that I ever questioned BG's engineering skills. The thing I have learned on this forum is that it's best to try to get anyone who makes a judgment call or forms an opinion on someone else's work, to post a clip to support what it's been discussed. I feel that if BK was called on it at the Shinola thread, Table of Tone should be called on it as well in order to dissipate all doubts and further speculation. There was also the engineer at Metropolis mentioned in this thread and it would be appropriate if everyone heard what he did. Therefore, it's only fair to provide the before and the after sample clips to objectively listen and to arrive to a consensus of what creates the 'wider side channels without much loss of center' effect. I suspect there is a bit of m/s manipulation, good equalization and level boost. Nothing too "old school" about it.
I have already told you why I'm not gonna post any clips.
I don't have permission to do so, either from the client, the producer or the other two mastering engineers!

BK almost definitely must have had permission to post the track on that thread!

I'm just sharing my saga from the back end of last week and trying to find out how to get widening to sound as good as Brian does.

If you wanna checkout Andy's work, look at his discog.

If you wanna checkout Brian's work, look at his discog.
(There's a very good rock album just been released in the USA, today I believe)

If you wanna checkout my work, go to myspace>Mastered by Ade, Table Of Tone
(Obviously MP3's up there)
Old 17th November 2009
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeloocproducer View Post
Edward... I've been in Brian's sessions, there's really no tricky region editing, etc. unless there was a "problem". You have to remember... he's an old school engineer.
The Audiocube had a couple stereo shufflers, as well.


DC
Old 17th November 2009
  #43
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The BEDINI BASE, could be up for a UAD cloning revival..
And.. fwiw, this thread distinctly metions Big Bass using it.. here



KAyo
Old 17th November 2009
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Table Of Tone View Post
Can the ADT W731 be made to do exactly the same thing, sonically, as the Bedini?
I have never used the Bedini so I can't make a direct comparison, but I do own the ADT unit and have been using it for many years.

It's clean, with a lot of headroom, it's fully balanced from input to output. You can get silly with this box and still maintain focus, it helps that both the base frequency, and the amount of crosstalk are adjustable and the parametric EQ is very efficient.
Old 17th November 2009
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
I have never used the Bedini so I can't make a direct comparison, but I do own the ADT unit and have been using it for many years.

It's clean, with a lot of headroom, it's fully balanced from input to output. You can get silly with this box and still maintain focus, it helps that both the base frequency, and the amount of crosstalk are adjustable and the parametric EQ is very efficient.
Thanks for the info mate!
Old 18th November 2009
  #46
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and in regard to the adt , i have never seen one ,but it looks to have a miles more features then the bedini ! but i have no comparison so i have no idea about the adt

we have another set of devices that is more in line with the adt features , and frankly i used them way more then i use the bedini of course as with all stereo shuffling ..less is more
but when its bedini time - nothing does its trick to the soundstage
Old 18th November 2009
  #47
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Glad to see my old BASE unit is getting some use there Rick! I'm sure it's not the same unit I parted with though

I did notice on Joe Malone's mastering console a separate 'stereo wide' matrix - which IIRC was something along the lines of 2R-L and 2L-R as well as a standard MS matrix.

Here it is, looks like he's got 3 spreaders!

JLM Mastering Console

The King
Old 18th November 2009
  #48
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hah ! your one is still on holidays in europe will

i havent got around to getting that one modified ( our 3rd one) , the thing about them is unless you sort the center image input /output interface out , you cannot really use that part of the box which is huge downer to the system any kind of load on the center channel changed the tone and freq response for the worse ....and i dont know what bedini thought the things would be used for but he also had the in out levels way off the mark for pro use
but that is stuff we sorted out years ago ..

i was really glad you had given up on yours though , i never figured out why you didnt use it anymore i thought you must have been swayed by the lure of tg spreader
Old 18th November 2009
  #49
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Funnily enough I don't use the TG spreader that much, more for another in the line of 'TG flavours' really.

I have an MS matrix as well as the matrix in the backbone (which I quite like - slightly different tone and sometimes all I do is engage it as an effect). Then there's the TC 6000 MS stuff which I use a bit too.

Funnily I always used the BASE in parallel at Festival on the Neumann. I remember thinking it was always too thin and bright over the main signal and I thought, 'well let's try the sidechain then'. So I plugged it in and guess what - nothing, the SP-79 reverb return was wired round the other way for unbalanced. So I got Ian or Rick to rewire it and then used to blend a bit in. Back then it seemed exciting to think none of the other engineers before me had even tried it - maybe I had a secret weapon of my own!

Now it looks like you have the secret weapon my friend.

May it serve you well!

The King
Old 18th November 2009
  #50
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you dont use the tg spread much ..?
thats ironic , that why i got the bedini in the first place to compete against the 301 emi spread ....

but the reverb return on the neumann console with the bedini.?
i did that alot i am afraid i used to patch that damn sontec comp in there to sort the bedini load issue out as well to trying get the elusive sidechain compression with "width " that people talked about in hushed tones... .. it never worked i just could not figure that sontec limiter out

the first time i saw that neumann console and i saw you had an extra patch bay wired in it really made me jealous .. ! i a cannot imagine how much fun you had being able to patch extra stuff in at will ... wow and not having to worry about the 4 channels needed for the cut in real time


i think that really limited desk is why we both ended up with everything

i think the bedinis i have are the worse kept secret i own
well other then the weiss/maya converter
Old 18th November 2009
  #51
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Yeah it was crazy, I used to have a Sontec early on in the chain, a whole load of stuff and then the second sontec from cutting B as well later on in the chain! I guess I created a 436 out of two 430B's. Sometimes I used parts of the a and b path too as I liked those OE DUO's quite a bit (especially after the mod on the step size).

As for the Sontec compressor I used it a lot actually, I used to do a lot of dance stuff and the pumping thing was all the rage, I worked it like a demon in the sidechain with the Bedini spreader and had a Urei 545 over the centre to boost hats, kicks, vox etc. Even though the urei was no good in a main signal (and I was already seriously ****ing with the phase) it had a narrow q that picked out areas like nothing else. Part of me is still surprised these eqs aren't more appreciated for sidechain stuff (then again I don't use them anymore!).

As for the wiring, err I don't get it as the BASE was wired the other way to cutting A standard, all the Sontec stuff was wired the same as the SP-79, it was that pesky new pin 2 hot standard that we'd never encountered before...

Don't get me wrong, the TG spreader is a great effect, but 301 had their own MS matrix as well, separate from the TG circuit which was left as stock. I think using the TG eqs in MS mode was a big part of 'that' sound, and the shelving system on the 12412's is still unique sounding and brilliant.

Gee it makes me nostalgic thinking back to those days when we were always trying to beat 301 or figure out what they were doing! Competition is always a good thing.

The King
Old 18th November 2009
  #52
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the Benedi pretends to be balanced but it isn't really and it folds up into a load of anything with a transformer attached which is why you thought it was thin
thus the mods, I have tried many things on the first one I had to sort this
and finally got it right
Back in the day I had flying leads for the thing because Thomas use to steal it all the time and run it into the neve maybe those leads were sorted .. Dunno who cares.,?

the real question is there still one at bernie grundman as does Brian use it
err... somebody should just ask him

the thing that really makes me laugh is what you did with the Neumann console And now you have a tg!

Mastering certainly is not a two horse race anymore that is for sure





and you have a tg console
I still have the bendini
Old 18th November 2009
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Table Of Tone View Post
Thanks for the info mate!
ADT also make a 5.1 version of this box that defies words. Give them a call, they're usually willing to send out test units.
Old 18th November 2009
  #54
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Mastering certainly is not a two horse race anymore that is for sure

I'm not sure who the two horses were, I'm more of a greyhound myself.

Yeah it's funny my old mastering suite was like a lab - trying anything and everything, one client said it was my 'giant synthesiser' and in many respects it was like some modular synth I kept on growing in the basement.

Now of course that I'm older I do more with less or even less with less, but I still like to have plenty of options for those days when a zen approach is not required. For eg I almost never use my c2 these days, but on one job (probably the only time this will ever work in my lifetime) I set it to crush and paralleled it into the buss and it turned the dullest most lifeless thing I've ever heard into an in yer face rock band.

So sometimes a greyhound can teach itself a new trick.

Back to work now

The King
Old 18th November 2009
  #55
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It's kinda like an egg and spoon race for me.
Old 18th November 2009
  #56
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I dislike very much those who try to stick the egg to the spoon to win.
Old 18th November 2009
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben F View Post
It's kinda like an egg and spoon race for me.
You mean of course 'egg and spoon face' Ben, guess there's an anagram of Feggans in there somewhere.

Working late too huh, how's this month eh, nuts! I've only got 3 days left un-booked in the rest of year! We can sleep when we're dead...

Think I might turn in now though, 16 tracks is enough surely, what do they want, blood AND egg?

The King
Old 18th November 2009
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turtlerock View Post
the Benedi pretends to be balanced but it isn't really and it folds up into a load of anything with a transformer attached which is why you thought it was thin
thus the mods, I have tried many things on the first one I had to sort this
and finally got it right
Back in the day I had flying leads for the thing because Thomas use to steal it all the time and run it into the neve maybe those leads were sorted .. Dunno who cares.,?

the real question is there still one at bernie grundman as does Brian use it
err... somebody should just ask him

the thing that really makes me laugh is what you did with the Neumann console And now you have a tg!

Mastering certainly is not a two horse race anymore that is for sure





and you have a tg console
I still have the bendini
I have asked Brian but have not heard back as yet.

Even if Bernie and Brian don't use the Bedini anymore, I liked what they were doing 10 or more years ago.
I liked the spread they were getting!

I don't have any transformers in my chain so I'll give the Bedini a go as it is and see what needs to be done in the way of mods.
The Mass Pass had transformers but I've bypassed em and it sounds way better!
I'm a tech so I could probably mod the Bedini myself.

What exactly was it you had done to your Bedini and where do you normally run it in the chain?

I was thinking of trying it straight after the D to A as I won't have made up any gain at that stage.

Thanks for the info
Old 18th November 2009
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
ADT also make a 5.1 version of this box that defies words. Give them a call, they're usually willing to send out test units.
I only do stereo work but thanks anyway!
Old 19th November 2009
  #60
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where in the chain ..?
we have two , one is wired up in a rather convoluted ridulous way with more gear attached to it then i care to talk about and parralled into a pultec mixer , i nearly never turn that one on
the other is just straight , sometimes i patch a pultec meq5 or a heavily modified for mastering japanese dbx 120x on its center channel
usually after the first eq and comp set but before any real limiting applies .
and before our m/s matrix eq & ellipitical system
for some reason
if you apply an m/s shuffle before the bedini - it sounds wierd and doesnt spread very well

the mods ..? i have been working on these things for a very long time trying to get them just right but in the end we re did the input stages so they are truly balanced and can accept +24db in and the other end the same or maybe a bit more on the output . ( even though we only run it at 0vu )
the center insert was reworked so it is also balanced and with the same kind or grunt
imo - this is where the real improvements were made - i like these boxes so the mods were just an evolution of trying to make it perfect

the bypass switch is reworked to use gas filled gold elma relays so it really bypasses and we added buffered vu meters to the thing .
oh yeah we had to trick up the power supply a bit to run the higher rails

i tried just using jenson step down step up transformers for a few years as bedini suggested at one time , but it was never really on the money tone wise .

so in the wash up it is just a level interfacing mod , so his circuit can do what it wants to do with out suffering from loads .

if you ever get one call me and we can talk through it in detail

but all that said and rereading what i have posted - i only use it once or twice a month
- it can really mess up you world if your not using it like a slice of truffle
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