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PMC TB2s, first unIMPRESSIONS...?
Old 14th November 2009
  #1
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PMC TB2s, first unIMPRESSIONS...?

Hello gents,

Well, don't know how to start...I got them for 2 days now. Bought them after reading several great reviews here and there.
My room is very well treated, I have Dynaudio bm5 passive plugged into power tube amp, handmade here in UK by some 'tube maverick' from Sweden - Erik Andersson. It's 12W per channel, it's loud. Another speakers setup Hafler m5 passive speakers into PRIMARE A10 audiophile integrated amp.(2x50W).

Now first impressions, as they say - most important!
I did research, I know they very 'amp hungry' speakers, very touchy regarding setup and cables.
My impressions are strictly regarding listening impression (I am going through my quite big CD's collection). I mean I didn't mix or master on them, for many reasons, obviously I need to get use to their sound first. So my impressions are based simply on listening CDs.

I plugged them into A10 first and spent few hours moving'em backwards/forwards left and right. I tried vertical and horizontal position. I remember somebody's here saying, to move them away from back wall.

After few hours I plugged bm5 Dynaudio and set similar audio levels for comparison. ( obviously it's not very fair comparison, because different amp, but the're swapped later on)
Anyway PMCs are more open, more detailed in high freq, the're smooth there and more 3 dimensional.
And that's actually all good I can tell about them now....( My Very First Impressions)
Comparing to bm5 (I even swapped amps later on, and generally my impressions hasn't change), they don't go so low. I have a quite good hifi sub - MJ Acoustics Pro (UK's company) and I don't used it since I bought that Tube Power Amp (HFA12).
Dyna's with that amp go really low, I can feel shaking sometimes( hiphop, jazz, reggae sounds just perfect).
PMC are bit shy with real low bass.

My impressions are :
with face2face comparison with BM5 -
Dyna's - got better bas, more punchy and going deeper
PMC got some sort of nasal sound in low mids, were Dyna's are clear
Dyna's got better stereophony ! ( yes i couldn't believe it either)
music stage is wider, better balanced on BM5
anyway I can hear on bm5, there's some sort of 'cut' in low mids, which creates more definition in lower bass and general sound is more detailed (maybe it's
dyna's flaw, but I think I like it more..)
where PMC wins is, they have 'character' after longing listening( shorten list below)

electronic/hiphop - massive attack/mezzanine
hiphop - missy elliot/this is not a test
jazz - blue notes records - several albums(remastered)(Miles, Ike Quebec, Montgomery)
rock - QUOTSA - a bit of all albums, Nirvana/Nevermind, Morphine (all), Jane's addiction/Strays
dub - Rythm&sound
audiophile - chesky records; Buena Vista Social Club, several jazz, acoustics jazz and folk recordings


What I like about those speakers is, that 'culture', more laid back sound.
I really like that you can play music really quiet on them and still be able to hear all details.
I am not a fan at the moment of their bit forwarded highs presentation (maybe I need a time like with good wine...who knows?). I can't get used to their bit 'nasal' character in low mids (vocals sound more warm and 'analog' though)
Maybe it's they have more details here, but I don't think so that all my CDs have too much information in that range. It exactly sounds like that (too many information in that frequency; but there's one more suspicion - my amplifier doesn't have enough power (?))
I miss a bit of that real fat low bass like Dyna's have.....
I thought it's my room doing sth wrong with PMCs firs, but hang on...if BM5 are ok, what's wrong with PMCs then ?
could be amp or speaker cables..
swapped both, and exactly same remarks....
I know for sure that my PRIMARE A10 (2x50w) it's not enough for them, so my first step is to find well treated sec hand NADc270 power amp and bi-wire PMC with it, hope it helps)

Summing it up:
It's my very First Impression ( so I could be wrong, God help me.. I hope I'll change my opinion after while and add my notes here asap.
I think I am orthodox Dynaudiofan (bad;()
I need at least 2 weeks to 'accommodate' to their different sound
I do sth wrong ( but what)
I am deaf ( maybe it's time to change profession heh)
There's something else, and you dear gearslut explain it to me

getting back to listening music....


have a nice one
Old 14th November 2009
  #2
Gear Maniac
 
tomasrangel's Avatar
 

i would first compare the frequencie response of each one on their manuals.
Old 14th November 2009
  #3
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Llitsor's Avatar
 

Are they brand new? I assure you, they take quite some running in! They will sound quite horrid for the first few days of use. When new they sound markedly boxy & bass light.
Their size might also imply they are ok in a small room. But in my experience, they work better in a larger space, and they definitely sound better with a bit more distance between them & yourself. Think more mid field than near field. If you are too close, you really won't hear the low end properly.

Remember they are rear vented transmission line speakers. So yes, keep them away from the back wall as best you can. And also, you won't get that hyped bass sound that you'd get from many traditional ported monitors. The absence of that hump takes some getting used to. But you are hearing a more accurate sound as a result.
Also, keep them upright, but don't angle them in directly towards you. Depending on the layout, you will likely find they sound better when aimed straight down the room.

Im not sure I agree about them needing a meaty amplifier, even if they are not especially efficient monitors. But an amp with plenty of headroom certainly doesn't hurt of course thumbsup
Old 15th November 2009
  #4
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NoisyNarrowBand's Avatar
 

had been offered a pair of tb2s+ active for a decent price (€1800.-). after reading all the raves about pmc I was very curios and really wanted to like them. spend two days listening to all kinds of music in different setups first in the shop then my studio.

found the sound top heavy and almost glassy. no lower mids to speak of, bass shy. good for getting voices and other presence instruments right but overally not impressed. passed on them.

and yes build quality sucks imho. speaker look and feel cheap.
Old 15th November 2009
  #5
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Red Mastering's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Llitsor View Post
Are they brand new? I assure you, they take quite some running in! They will sound quite horrid for the first few days of use. When new they sound markedly boxy & bass light.
Their size might also imply they are ok in a small room. But in my experience, they work better in a larger space, and they definitely sound better with a bit more distance between them & yourself. Think more mid field than near field. If you are too close, you really won't hear the low end properly.

Remember they are rear vented transmission line speakers. So yes, keep them away from the back wall as best you can. And also, you won't get that hyped bass sound that you'd get from many traditional ported monitors. The absence of that hump takes some getting used to. But you are hearing a more accurate sound as a result.
Also, keep them upright, but don't angle them in directly towards you. Depending on the layout, you will likely find they sound better when aimed straight down the room.

Im not sure I agree about them needing a meaty amplifier, even if they are not especially efficient monitors. But an amp with plenty of headroom certainly doesn't hurt of course thumbsup
Hi,

Thank you for a reply. They are not new. Room is average/small, 5,5x4,6 m. Distance between myself and PMCs is about 150 cm (triangle). I agree what you said about bass response, you need to be much further to 'feel' that bass.
The problem is my setup (desk ver speakers stand ver room) it's the best I could have in this room, and there's no chance to move it in any direction:(
hence speakers are quite close to back wall (about 35 cm). back wall is heavy bass trapped though.
I moved them away from the wall (about 80 cm) and noticed a bigger 'order' in low freq response. And yes, upright position suits them somehow better.

Still the biggest issue is that nasal, not clear low mid presentation......


thanks
Old 15th November 2009
  #6
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Verified Member
a night later....

Second Impressions:

PMC - is the winner !!!

After over 3 hours of re-setting up my desk/speakers stand and bass traps, I moved PMCs about 55 cm off the back wall. I put them upside down, so tweeter is on my ears level, and woofer bit higher.
Those speakers should be treated as a middle filed speakers as someone mentioned before. proper setup of those babies is crucial, it changes everything, so much I couldn't believe my ears ....
They like to have about 100 cm free space around by wall (I reckon it's best, but I 'gave' them 55 cm from back wall only and about 80 by sides), they like to to stand wide away from themselves and face the wall behind you, not yourself (thanx gearslutz users for this tip)

Sum it up, I plugged them and put Kind of Blue, and bang I was hearing what I haven't heard in the first place.... The stage, the lows, details, everything was there, magic....
I just didn't expect that setup of those speakers is so crucial....
I compared them to Dyna's now - well ,dyna's sound 'cheap' and they don't have that 'rich' and full sound PMCs have.


to all future users of PMC - give them time and patience with setup.

full recommendation now absolutely fantastic monitors.



thanks everyone for input.

Old 15th November 2009
  #7
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Yes, those are way too close. That would be fine for most monitors of that size, but not TB2's. Still, you know this now
I don't know what it is about these that makes them so very fussy about positioning and placement. I've never known any other speakers like it.
In my room, they they don't seem to sound their best until im a good 8 or more feet away from them. Any closer and the low end falls away quite dramatically. Hence my comment about them being more like mid fields.

However, once you get it right, they are very rewarding

While im here.. I don't find them badly built. 4 or 8 screws/bolts. Does it matter? So long as its enough to do the job, which evidently it is. Theres no leaks. The drivers don't fall out. Its enough. Plus the cabinet itself is heavy and solidly constructed. No complaints here, bar the rather fussy positioning issue.
Old 15th November 2009
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SafeandSound View Post
Ok you have the metal tweeter version, shame.
Not really such a shame, as they are still fine monitors. Besides, PMC still support them and made an upgrade kit available which includes new tweeters and crossovers.

Just to add. They have a 6.5" woofer. Not 10"
Old 15th November 2009
  #9
Mastering Moderator
 
Riccardo's Avatar
 

Verified Member
2 Reviews written
Both the earlier metal tweeters and the current version sound fine. There are differencies but you can get very good results with any of them.
Old 16th November 2009
  #10
I bet they'd sound better still with the Dynaudios removed and toed radically in so the axes cross in front of your nose. Under those circumstances, they might sound better the right way up. The frequency response is bound to be seriously skewed when you are as far off their axes as you appear to be.
Old 16th November 2009
  #11
Deleted User
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tresperros View Post
to all future users of PMC - give them time and patience with setup.

full recommendation now absolutely fantastic monitors.
They give a truthful presentation of how the music actually might appear on most systems.

Also providing a good balance between "total" and "detail", where many other speakers that size are giving too much of the "total" to make them useful from a mastering perspective. This is, IMO, their strong point but it might take some time to realize.


Best Regards
Patrik
Old 16th November 2009
  #12
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Llitsor's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SafeandSound View Post
Who mentioned 10" ?
Urrm, you did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SafeandSound View Post
4 crosshead screw in
a 10inch driver seems a bit cheap to me compared with 8 x hex threaded bolts for a Dynaudio 6.5'.
Old 16th November 2009
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SafeandSound View Post
So I did, my apologies.

The IB1's still only have 4 visible screws in their 10" driver
and the TB2S+ 6.5", same deal, seems cheapoid to me.

Seems like a small screw count for drivers in a top level monitor. (I speak of the IB1S not the TB2S+)
Have you actually had a good look at any PMC monitors? Not counting .jpgs. Better yet, listen to some.. The drivers are held in with hex bolts, not crosshead screws. TB2's get pretty regular looking hex bolts. IB1's have nicer looking domed versions.
PMC have been producing TB2's (and IB1's for that matter) for many years. I think they know what they are doing. If 4 bolts was inadequate, you'd know about it by now, and PMC would have addressed the matter long ago. However, there is no issue to address, so 4 bolts it is. PMC engineer their kit to have everything it needs, and nothing it doesn't. Hence the often utilitarian appearances, but more importantly they get a quality job done.
Screw/bolt count is hardly an ideal way to judge the quality of high end monitors.
Old 17th November 2009
  #14
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tresperros View Post
Second Impressions:

PMC - is the winner !!!

After over 3 hours of re-setting up my desk/speakers stand and bass traps, I moved PMCs about 55 cm off the back wall. I put them upside down, so tweeter is on my ears level, and woofer bit higher.
Those speakers should be treated as a middle filed speakers as someone mentioned before. proper setup of those babies is crucial, it changes everything, so much I couldn't believe my ears ....
They like to have about 100 cm free space around by wall (I reckon it's best, but I 'gave' them 55 cm from back wall only and about 80 by sides), they like to to stand wide away from themselves and face the wall behind you, not yourself (thanx gearslutz users for this tip)

Sum it up, I plugged them and put Kind of Blue, and bang I was hearing what I haven't heard in the first place.... The stage, the lows, details, everything was there, magic....
I just didn't expect that setup of those speakers is so crucial....
I compared them to Dyna's now - well ,dyna's sound 'cheap' and they don't have that 'rich' and full sound PMCs have.


to all future users of PMC - give them time and patience with setup.

full recommendation now absolutely fantastic monitors.



thanks everyone for input.


you dont put them upside down. Thats where you have gone wrong. Put them the right way up.
Old 17th November 2009
  #15
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Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Llitsor View Post
Have you actually had a good look at any PMC monitors? Not counting .jpgs. Better yet, listen to some.. The drivers are held in with hex bolts, not crosshead screws. TB2's get pretty regular looking hex bolts. IB1's have nicer looking domed versions.
PMC have been producing TB2's (and IB1's for that matter) for many years. I think they know what they are doing. If 4 bolts was inadequate, you'd know about it by now, and PMC would have addressed the matter long ago. However, there is no issue to address, so 4 bolts it is. PMC engineer their kit to have everything it needs, and nothing it doesn't. Hence the often utilitarian appearances, but more importantly they get a quality job done.
Screw/bolt count is hardly an ideal way to judge the quality of high end monitors.
quite! thumbsup
Old 17th November 2009
  #16
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I can't see any screws whatsoever on the front of my K+H, so I'm going to throw them out.
Old 17th November 2009
  #17
kjg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macc View Post
I can't see any screws whatsoever on the front of my K+H, so I'm going to throw them out.
what a junk. surely the drivers are rattling! i'd much rather have dynaudio bm5 with 6 bolts!
Old 17th November 2009
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Llitsor View Post
PMC engineer their kit to have everything it needs, and nothing it doesn't.
PMC trivia corner: a small exception is the front of the AML1s - what at first sight seems to be six bolts spread around the baffle are actually powerful magnets which were originally intended to hold a grille that never materialised. I'm told the only way you can remove them (not that you'd especially want to) is with an equally powerful magnet.

PMC AML1 Compact Active Studio Monitor, Grey | DV247
Old 17th November 2009
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SafeandSound View Post
Not rattling as much as my ribs after those really funny jokes.
No way have you got a sense of humour. I demand proof.

Quote:
Sure I take on board they are respected speaker but it still gives an impression
that build quality compared with every other high cost speakers seems insubstantial.
If you judge build quality by the number of screws you can see on it, yes.

Quote:
And if you do a search online there are stories of bits rattling inside PMC monitors
so not as far from the truth as one might imagine.
I can find links to rattling dynaudios as well. BFD!

You're defending what you've got - it's only natural - but trying to criticise PMC as a company/brand based on the number of screws they use is just
Old 17th November 2009
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SafeandSound View Post
I frankly could not care what you think about my sense of humour or lack thereof
and nor should you be concerned with it either.
QED

Lighten up Barry.
Old 17th November 2009
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SafeandSound View Post
I am not wasting further time on this thread.
Probably a good idea.....that hole was getting deep.
Old 17th November 2009
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SafeandSound View Post
There is no hole, only the void in your day.. to be able to continue with inane, pointless posts with zero value.
I thought you were done with this thread?

If inane and pointless is the theme we're on, then I reckon you excelled with judging an entire line of speakers based on pictures showing you the number of 'screws' securing the drivers to the cabinet. Way to go!

Old 17th November 2009
  #23
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SafeandSound:

Not only have you not so much as seen any real life PMC monitors. You have not heard any either. Have you? It certainly appears that way.
10" drivers.. 4 Crosshead screws.. "Shame" the OP has the metal tweeter version when theres nothing at all wrong with them (And theres always that upgrade kit)
If 2 wrongs don't make a right, then 3 wrongs sure don't make a right either. Yet even after that little lot, you boldly carry on wedging your foot into your mouth regardless.

And if you search online, you'll find bad press about pretty much anything you want. Elvis, Nuns, Milk, Hamsters, Belgian people, your cousins puss ridden ingrown toenail.
Still, im intrigued what dark & obscure corner of the net you had to go to find some "Stories" about rattling PMC's. Ironically enough, when I just did a Google search about that very subject, the first hit was this bloody thread. The other hits had content of even less relevance.

Saying they "Seem" to have quality issues based on how they look in pictures you have seen on the internet is akin to me saying your studio is bad quality because your website is riddled with typographical errors. The pictures look like they were taken on a mobile phone and half your gear is scattered about the floor of what looks like an Arabs tent.

Going on your logic, that would be a perfectly fair assumption, No?

You said yourself it's a respected brand. There is a good reason for that.

PS, nice use of crosshead screws.
Old 12th May 2010
  #24
Gear Maniac
 
Msilver84's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tresperros View Post
Second Impressions:

PMC - is the winner !!!

After over 3 hours of re-setting up my desk/speakers stand and bass traps, I moved PMCs about 55 cm off the back wall. I put them upside down, so tweeter is on my ears level, and woofer bit higher.
Those speakers should be treated as a middle filed speakers as someone mentioned before. proper setup of those babies is crucial, it changes everything, so much I couldn't believe my ears ....
They like to have about 100 cm free space around by wall (I reckon it's best, but I 'gave' them 55 cm from back wall only and about 80 by sides), they like to to stand wide away from themselves and face the wall behind you, not yourself (thanx gearslutz users for this tip)

Sum it up, I plugged them and put Kind of Blue, and bang I was hearing what I haven't heard in the first place.... The stage, the lows, details, everything was there, magic....
I just didn't expect that setup of those speakers is so crucial....
I compared them to Dyna's now - well ,dyna's sound 'cheap' and they don't have that 'rich' and full sound PMCs have.


to all future users of PMC - give them time and patience with setup.

full recommendation now absolutely fantastic monitors.



thanks everyone for input.

Hi,

I just got a pair of TB2S+'s and I wanted know how you position yours?
Old 12th May 2010
  #25
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Verified Member
just read a thread and you'll find answer
pmc are quite unusual,
but sound is really great,
with roper amp, you don't have to switch on sub
I actually don't remember last time I used mine...

enjoy your pmc!

PS it's worthy to spend few days for setup, pmc are temperamental in this area, time involved will pay you back soon, Room Wizzard and SPL meter help a lot.
Old 16th May 2010
  #26
Gear Nut
 

I would like to know the dimensions of your PMC set up as i am considering these myself but are put off with the mid-field comments. Regards Ronnie
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