The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
EQ in mastering? Dynamics Plugins
Old 21st November 2009
  #241
Lives for gear
 
b0ssa's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waltz Mastering View Post
I think this is all a bit subjective.

Would Neil Young or Dylan sound better singing sharp or just under the note, where they do? Will a blues player sound better playing a head of the beat or behind it?
Great electric blues players bend almost every note a tad sharp. It's the coolest thing and that which creates the anticipation and a bit of 'cry' in the performance. People who sing 'too well' and who aren't very emotional in their performances, generally sound more personal if they sing at the edge of their range. It's a method that can help create an emotional effect through the actual pain or stress of the act of singing in itself. I'm not saying that it's an emotional interpretation by any means, just that the difficulty of singing too high tends to create stress that can be seen as emotion. Joe Cocker sounds like he's in agony when singing.. people see that as 'soul' and I cringe and grab for my throat everytime as I can feel his pain. (sarcasm maybe?)

Probably worthless remarks in an manstering thread...

And cheers for the Voxengo SPAN tip off as that is useful to me at least. I don't have enough time (at my age) to get the years of experience you guys obviously have, so I appreciate any means to expedite my education and assist my efforts.
Old 21st November 2009
  #242
Lives for gear
 
Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by harmony View Post
that's actually not quite how it works.
Actually it is ...once you've advanced beyond the student phase.

A real pro is not thinking Amin7-D9-Gmaj7-E7#9 in his head while soloing.

He's drawing from the sounds he's hearing from the other musicians and playing the sounds he's hearing from inside his head and heart, not a thinking process, but an intuitive one, a direct connection to creativity, drawn from talent, ear, and years of experience. They say the best improvisors are "singing" their solo lines inside their head as they're playing. Ever hear an Oscar Peterson recording where you can actually hear him vocalizing the lines while soloing?

There again a detour from the real topic which is EQ'ing during mastering.

But there's a direct correlation. In both instances the person that's either playing a tenor saxophone or turning an EQ knob is relying on his ear, not some visual guide.

A real pro is not staring at an analyzer while listening to the music, trying to figure out what to do. He's listening deeply, hearing the adjustments to be made in his minds' ear, and makes really good moves as a result, without a lot of difficulty.

If it's a terrible mix it might take a little effort, but that's a different kettle of wax.

JT
Old 21st November 2009
  #243
Lives for gear
 
Piedpiper's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
Actually it is ...once you've advanced beyond the student phase.

A real pro is not thinking Amin7-D9-Gmaj7-E7#9 in his head while soloing.

He's drawing from the sounds he's hearing from the other musicians and playing the sounds he's hearing from inside his head and heart, not a thinking process, but an intuitive one, a direct connection to creativity, drawn from talent, ear, and years of experience. They say the best improvisors are "singing" their solo lines inside their head as they're playing. Ever hear an Oscar Peterson recording where you can actually hear him vocalizing the lines while soloing?

There again a detour from the real topic which is EQ'ing during mastering.

But there's a direct correlation. In both instances the person that's either playing a tenor saxophone or turning an EQ knob is relying on his ear, not some visual guide.

A real pro is not staring at an analyzer while listening to the music, trying to figure out what to do. He's listening deeply, hearing the adjustments to be made in his minds' ear, and makes really good moves as a result, without a lot of difficulty.

If it's a terrible mix it might take a little effort, but that's a different kettle of wax.

JT
Semantics. IMO, intuition is especially useful when the intellect has met it half way. Otherwise, you don't know what the $%^& you're doing. The only way you can let go is if you've already done your homework. Then the thinking is still there, it's just integrated to the point of fluency, like with a language. Hopefully, we don't stop "thinking" just because we're fluent in our language of choice. It's just that we don't have to work at it so hard.

Anyway, I suspect I've said enough about this...
Old 21st November 2009
  #244
Lives for gear
 
Edward_Vinatea's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
{snip}

There again a detour from the real topic which is EQ'ing during mastering.

But there's a direct correlation. In both instances the person that's either playing a tenor saxophone or turning an EQ knob is relying on his ear, not some visual guide.

A real pro is not staring at an analyzer while listening to the music, trying to figure out what to do. He's listening deeply, hearing the adjustments to be made in his minds' ear, and makes really good moves as a result, without a lot of difficulty.
It seems that some of you just want to require of people an absolute inborn skill for engineering or else one is not worthy of being called an "engineer". Do you know why there is in existence a whole industry dedicated to the making of analyzers? Again, using the BK analogy, a student would have had a hard time finding the exact frequency to correct that 'bad' bass note. With his chart and mini-keyboard, he could spot it. With the RTA he could see it and fix it even faster. The point is that these are training tools and useful techniques. You don't have to be a student to try these methods either. You would assume that the student would know that there is a problem with the bass, but you'd be making assumptions there too. Even to arrive to that conclusion takes a music engineering training. To some, it will take years. Guys like you argue that there is nothing to be learned from RTA's for a simple reason, it has no value to you. You've gone through a lengthy learning process by ear and can't even imagine going back and start over with the aid of a crutch. What you guys don't understand is that over time, they become walking poles. Your statement above in bold only tells me that you are one of those who consider RTA's just as flashing lights :-)

FWIW, no one "stares" or is glued looking at a RTA, unless of course, one is designing sound.
Old 21st November 2009
  #245
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piedpiper View Post
Except it sounds like you're denying the importance of the first part. Or maybe you aren't, and you're just saying you have to get through the first part and then get to the last part.
The first part is not the 'first' part, that's the point. Any argument that starts with something other than listening and identifying frequencies by ear is not an equal argument. If you simply look at the history of the craft and the common practices for decades and now, it's not in doubt that acute listening skills, and musicality are the keys to success.

No, I'm not attacking the guy who is teaching others to replace him. It's a matter of common sense that his work must not be that special if he can be replaced so easily.

Meaning ... if a mixer can do what I do in his room after a few lessons from me then I'm not offering very much of a service in the first place. OTOH, if I teach a single apprentice everything I know and no matter how much I teach them my work still stands out with a unique and musical voice, then I'm offering something of value. The latter is the result of many apprenticeships by the top names in the field, the former is the result of mediocre methods and results passing on the same.

And anyone who is denying the importance of a separate room, specific tools and mostly an individual talent that evolves from sheer will and daily focus on the craft, is doing no one any kind of service. Dumbing down the craft for hire to an RTA in the mix room and a couple of lessons, is not something to be proud of, it's just a convenient way to make a buck and satisfy the lazy mixer.

Any mixer who is true to their craft knows that their mastering is not equal to a great job by a talented specialist. If they want the best for themselves and their clients music, they push their clients to do more than have them finish it off.

Giving in to this mindset is saying "good enough is all this music needs". And where your record and it's first impression is competing with the recorded history of all and everything, much of the greatest work done without much of an eye to budget, and engineered by trained specialists at each step from tracking to mastering, I'm sorry but that's just dumb.

If you are not giving your all to music, please stop and do something else. You're wasting space in the universe for something special to be more easily noticed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scraggs View Post
why are you always so angry and why is everyone else always the bad guy?

always. i've been reading your posts for the better part of a decade and it's always the same thing, regardless of topic.
You've been "reading", but not understanding, so go easy on the projections. If you had passion, you'd read passion. If you have anger, you'll read anger.
Old 21st November 2009
  #246
Lives for gear
 
dcollins's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Walking poles?

DC
Old 21st November 2009
  #247
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piedpiper View Post
Hopefully, we don't stop "thinking" just because we're fluent in our language of choice. It's just that we don't have to work at it so hard.
You don't think about the words and even less about the grammatical rules. You think about the content.

Alistair
Old 21st November 2009
  #248
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea View Post
It seems that some of you just want to require of people an absolute inborn skill for engineering or else one is not worthy of being called an "engineer".
Yes. If you don't have that inborn skill, you will never be any good. Is that so strange?

During the first period of learning, you are not an engineer yet regardless of inborn skill. You are an apprentice or in learning. At some point you become an engineer. That doesn't mean you ever stop learning of course.

Alistair
Old 21st November 2009
  #249
Gear Maniac
 
Dale Turner's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piedpiper View Post
Hopefully, we don't stop "thinking" just because we're fluent in our language of choice. It's just that we don't have to work at it so hard.
Amen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
You don't think about the words and even less about the grammatical rules. You think about the content.
There are also times in a conversation, when you're really trying to convey a specific idea--chosing your words very carefully, "pre-hearing" your words a microsecond before they come out of your mouth. Sometimes (musical) improvisation is like that as well: In the heat of the moment, but very under control and precise.

Dale
Old 21st November 2009
  #250
Gear Addict
 
mastertone's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Hey, how you doin? so i´m back from the swineflu.

So what you guys talking about?
Eq in mastering? who knew?
Old 22nd November 2009
  #251
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by harmony View Post
i am an accomplished improviser. it was my undergraduate degree
Eek.


Mychal
Old 22nd November 2009
  #252
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Turner View Post
Amen!

There are also times in a conversation, when you're really trying to convey a specific idea--chosing your words very carefully, "pre-hearing" your words a microsecond before they come out of your mouth.
I don't believe one is thinking of the words but rather of the concepts attached to those words. Very often people are not actually aware of the words they use even though they shape the way they think. I notice this very much in the way people seem to think in different languages.

There is of course a cultural influence but in a sense language and the meaning of particular words have an even stronger impact on people's thinking. I see this in languages that are quite close to each other. I think this effect is even more pronounced with languages that are less similar. I can't test this as I don't speak any languages that differ enough from the ones I know.

Anyway, I digress...

Alistair
Old 22nd November 2009
  #253
Lives for gear
 
Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by harmony View Post
i am an accomplished improviser. it was my undergraduate degree, and i've had the good fortune to work with top shelf players for many years. played that coltrane stuff you like to mention, at tempo, and much more harmonically challenging stuff as well.
Excellent. I'll bet you're a fine player.

In mastering much like improvisation, the ear reigns supreme.

I was also a fluent improviser, with ahem... academic and street level experience.
When I started mastering for a living, it simply took over, and I put the guitar on the back burner.
I think the last time I played The Hokey Pokey was New Year's Eve 1991 : - )

Quote:
with very, very basic stuff, such as your II-V-I-VI example, some people may just play blues licks over it, and get away with it. that has its place. in fact you do seem to be coming more from a "blues licks" kind of place.
Not strictly what I'm referring to, although I do really dig blues in it's many forms.
At advanced levels of improvisation you do retain a a sense of harmonic function,
that flow of tension and release, although it's probably intuitive at that point.

Quote:
and all of that is informed by a connection with God / higher ground / intuition.
Very nicely put, being connected with pure creativity, much like Coltrane's later period, where there were no changes, just freedom of expression.

--------

To relate this discussion once again to mastering. I mastered a full length record today, after initially setting up the levels at the beginning of the session, felt no need to consult any analyzers for the remainder of the day. Once you get in the Zone the ears take over. I did check my L/R balance again after the dinner break : - )

So I would like to issue you guys a challenge.

On your your next mastering project, check your levels at the beginning of the session with a simple meter. Then do the rest of the session without using any analyzers.

Just try it.

I think you'll find that relying on your ears (and monitors) alone to guide you, will build a level of confidence, and a sense connection with the music (and your gear), that you just don't get to by relying all the visual "helpers".

Best Regards - JT
Old 22nd November 2009
  #254
Lives for gear
 
Piedpiper's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by harmony View Post
i have noticed that many are having a real problem understanding that things do not have to be mutually exclusive.
My main issue here.

I have to say that some interesting things are being articulated in the process, though. And although much of it may seem like digression from the OP, it actually is addressing perhaps the central issue of the OP. What I like is that, at least for me, the articulations seem to be deepening and refining.

Thanks to all for your thoughtfulness.
Old 22nd November 2009
  #255
Lives for gear
 
dcollins's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
I think you'll find that relying on your ears (and monitors) alone to guide you, will build a level of confidence, and a sense connection with the music (and your gear), that you just don't get to by relying all the visual "helpers".
Ban him!

Will you eschew the tuning fork, as well?


DC
Old 22nd November 2009
  #256
Lives for gear
 
Adam Dempsey's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
I think the last time I played The Hokey Pokey was New Year's Eve 1991 : - )

I think you'll find that relying on your ears (and monitors) alone to guide you, will build a level of confidence, and a sense connection with the music (and your gear), that you just don't get to by relying all the visual "helpers".
And "that's what it's all about".
Old 22nd November 2009
  #257
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
Ban him!

Will you eschew the tuning fork, as well?


DC
Awesome!


What you're describing is how music is played on the highest level too. That is really cool.

Mychal
Old 22nd November 2009
  #258
Lives for gear
 
macc's Avatar
 

Verified Member
I have to say that this last page of this thread had been very interesting, some lovely stuff here.

This arc of learning and development is common to all pursuits, really. Combat is another. You learn the steps, the defence, the attack, you train endless drills to make them flow together, endless hours free-fighting or sparring or whatever. Eventually you reach the level where it comes out when it needs to, perfectly expressed and at the perfect time.

Personally I don't see any difference between activities other than the physical particulars of the one concerned. The path travelled is practically identical. Knows nothing > first 'fun' steps > educated but stilted by knowledge > educated and developing (relaxed) > just expressing onesself naturally through the learned framework.

I have to agree that I've found mastering to be just like any other pursuit in this regard. As I develop I am aware of the good days, where I just push and pull things into place, without worrying about what number/knob/freq it is. They're the good days.

To put it another way;

Quote:
Originally Posted by piedpiper
IMO, intuition is especially useful when the intellect has met it half way. Otherwise, you don't what the $%^& you're doing. The only way you can let go is if you've already done your homework. Then the thinking is still there, it's just integrated to the point of fluency, like with a language. Hopefully, we don't stop "thinking" just because we're fluent in our language of choice. It's just that we don't have to work at it so hard.
thumbsup
Old 22nd November 2009
  #259
Lives for gear
 
Edward_Vinatea's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
Walking poles?
Alright Ambassador. Then, how about stilts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Yes. If you don't have that inborn skill, you will never be any good. Is that so strange?
Yes, it is because I was never meant to be a good engineer! That's why.
Quote:
During the first period of learning, you are not an engineer yet regardless of inborn skill. You are an apprentice or in learning. At some point you become an engineer. That doesn't mean you ever stop learning of course.
Is anyone 'anything' until one practices a skill or earns a degree? I can understand a special talent for music or maybe cinematography, but audio engineer? Come on now. It's a skill, maybe more subjective than others, nothing more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
Excellent. I'll bet you're a fine player.
In mastering much like improvisation, the ear reigns supreme.
The use of hearing, of course, is needed for the task, unless you are to mastering what Beethoven was to music {he played and composed while being deaf}.You may 'improvise' one way I may the other, the point is both should arrive at that good mix translation and other sonic benefits.
Quote:
{snip}
So I would like to issue you guys a challenge.
On your your next mastering project, check your levels at the beginning of the session with a simple meter. Then do the rest of the session without using any analyzers.
Just try it.
I think you'll find that relying on your ears (and monitors) alone to guide you, will build a level of confidence, and a sense connection with the music (and your gear), that you just don't get to by relying all the visual "helpers".
The only thing you are going to prove is that mastering without analyzers is simply put, very possible. Your error is to assume that looking to a guidance tool from time to time is a major distraction. More specifically, the visual and analytical tasks are on the left side while musical focus, on the right. Some people argue that there is an interplay between the two {because some people with brain damage can still sing and play} but there is no evidence to support that one uses the left side of the cerebral cortex to control all the musical and subjective modes of thinking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
I get it Edward. Still, it is a bad analogy.
In order to give you the proper respect you deserve, Undertow, I am going to reply with yet another 'fitting' analogy {I hope you understand this one now}. Have you seen the movie "The Good, The Bad and The Ugly"? Which by the way, I have the explicit permission from Ennio to remix, but no label interest yet :(
Anyway Undertow, you are Tuco, I am Blondie. You are at your hanging with a horse underneath you. Blondie is supposed to free you by shooting the execution rope from long distance, only this time, I am not doing that. Goodbye Tuco, I mean Undertow. heh

---------------------------------

Keep the amusement going, Guys
Old 22nd November 2009
  #260
Lives for gear
 
masteringhouse's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
Will you eschew the tuning fork, as well?
Gazunteit!
Old 22nd November 2009
  #261
Lives for gear
 
masteringhouse's Avatar
 

Verified Member
I once asked Billy Cobham what he thought about while improvising drum solos. He said "doing my taxes".

Thinking about music theory while improvising is usually going to slow you down more than being able to relate a scale to a progression naturally. It will also likely make your solos more of an exercise in intellect rather than "soulful". Some of the best Jazz players have little musical education. Ear training in music is far more important for the improviser than theory though an analysis after the fact can be helpful.

Likewise an ME should be able to recognize both frequency AND pitch without any tools other than their ears. Of the two frequency recognition is the more critical part, but pitch recognition is very handy skill to have as well.
Old 22nd November 2009
  #262
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea View Post
Yes, it is because I was never meant to be a good engineer! That's why.
I have no idea what you mean by that. To me it means that you are either wrong or you are indeed not a very good engineer.

Quote:
I can understand a special talent for music or maybe cinematography, but audio engineer? Come on now. It's a skill, maybe more subjective than others, nothing more.
You really think that everyone has the same abilities as far as listening is concerned, knowing what to do with what one hears, figuring out a way to correct things, remaining objective after hours of work etc? I don't.

I think you need both inborn skill and a lot of practise to ever become any good. (Our criteria for very good might vary).


Quote:
In order to give you the proper respect you deserve, Undertow, I am going to reply with yet another 'fitting' analogy {I hope you understand this one now}.
I understood the previous one just fine. It was bad. This one demonstrates that you feel hurt I don't agree with you.

Alistair
Old 22nd November 2009
  #263
Lives for gear
 
masteringhouse's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Actually I have a great deal of knowledge about music theory and have studied under several of Dennis Sandole's students. John Coltrane I've been told was a student of Dennis Sandole and got a lot of his theory regarding tritone substitutons from him. I believe that Pat Martino did as well, part of the "Philly family". I am not however a great Jazz guitarist for the exact reason that I mentioned. My style and and ear do not lend themselves to applying this theory and approach without thinking about it.

In one of your earlier posts you had mentioned that you learn these things make them part of your approach and then forget them. I agree. This is the point where improv becomes an art not an intellectual pursuit. Some can hear these things naturally without prerequisite knowledge of the theory. They are still at the same skill level as those who know the theory behind it as far as players. Nobody cares what the black dots on paper are when listening.

Likewise nobody cares what an RTA looks like when listening to a CD.
Old 22nd November 2009
  #264
Lives for gear
 
Edward_Vinatea's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
I have no idea what you mean by that. To me it means that you are either wrong or you are indeed not a very good engineer.{snip}I understood the previous one just fine. It was bad. This one demonstrates that you feel hurt I don't agree with you.
You know what we are talking about, so please stop acting out your usual passive-aggressive antics with me. I will agree with you to the extent that the word "talent" can be a very 'unspecific' and vague word to describe the possession of a special/rare commodity, or how one is internally and intuitively hard wired. I have even used the same word "talent" to make a similar point in a different thread almost a year ago. If you wonder why you find yourself all alone saying that mastering requires "talent" or an inborn ability click here. The only thing I really wonder is why 'they' are ignoring all this Maybe in some level they have become afraid of you.

Having said all that, I agree that "skill" is a more fitting term and since mastering doesn't require "talent" "or an inborn skill", it can be obtained through experience, education and/or knowledge. One point I could argue a bit is that mixing is a combination of both. Or even mastering, why not?

Anyway, please find more useful things to do with your time than to argue with me every time.
Old 22nd November 2009
  #265
Lives for gear
 
Cellotron's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by masteringhouse View Post
nobody cares what an RTA looks like when listening to a CD.
Except for a few posters on this forum!

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 22nd November 2009
  #266
Lives for gear
 
Edward_Vinatea's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by masteringhouse View Post

Likewise nobody cares what an RTA looks like when listening to a CD.
+1 Very true And, there is also a whole lot of other gear I am not thinking about when listening to music.

Let's continue the amusement. heh
Old 22nd November 2009
  #267
Lives for gear
 
Edward_Vinatea's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by harmony View Post
btw, don't some crappy consumer players have those little real time analyzers tacked on to add insult to injury?

i'm not hating on real time analysers or anything. i'll use whatever is in the room, if i think its providing good and useful information. mostly listening.
The ones on those CD players - that I think you are referring to - are utterly useless for a couple of reasons; they only show a few bands and they have no frequency markings {usually} so you can't tell the width on each band they are supposed to be representing. BTW, your views above are very interesting. Very good post.

Regards,
Old 22nd November 2009
  #268
Lives for gear
 
masteringhouse's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by harmony View Post
tritone substitution is simply replacing a dominant seventh chord with another one [usually altered] whose root is a tritone away from the one that is replaced. its supported by the fact that the third and seventh degree of each of those chords form the same tritone [diminished fifth] interval. the third of one chord is the seventh of the other, and vice-versa. thus, they are largely interchangeable, functionally.
This is part of it but Sandole's method extended this beyond chord substitutions to scale/modal substitutions, chord progressions, etc. something I'm certain that you're aware of but may have learned with a different set of rules or nomenclature.

At any rate I don't think that we are that far from agreement. Basically whatever knowledge or feel that you have you need to "own it" not constantly look for the answers in a fake book or cheat sheet.
Old 22nd November 2009
  #269
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by masteringhouse View Post
. Some of the best Jazz players have little musical education. Ear training in music is far more important for the improviser than theory though an analysis after the fact can be helpful.
I agree, almost, but this is often overstated. Coltrane and Coleman spent many hours together for years discussing theory - Coleman is a superb example (and I have said this before) of a theorist (harmomelodics) who said developing it helped him to express himself. No contest or contrariety between them.

SB
Old 22nd November 2009
  #270
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
I think you need both inborn skill and a lot of practise to ever become any good.
Alistair
Neonates have very few 'skills'. We even have to learn how to see. At best innate propensities that with encouragement (and yes lots of practice) can develop. DNA is not destiny.

May be I am taking you too literally, but belief in education of whatever cultural kind, formal or emotional, begins with belief in wonderful human plasticity and educability and so notions of inborn anything are actually very reactionary and have a long theological/political heritage.

SB
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
gainstages / Mastering forum
9
mittebewohner / So much gear, so little time
8

Forum Jump
Forum Jump