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EQ in mastering? Dynamics Plugins
Old 18th November 2009
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey View Post
"I like to see" - preference
"never bad" - speculation
"especially true" - preference and speculation
Or experience from someome who has trained a lot of students.
Quote:
"as long as they learn to trust their ears above everything else ...." - wildly optimistic

What do you think about listening first, most and always? Close your eyes even.
listening first: fine
listening most: of course
listening always: of course
Close my eyes: no reason
Quote:

It would take a little longer to work blind, but I work in the dark for a reason ... to see less and hear more. There is only so much brain power to go around and the more we look the less we hear. If the room needs a RTA then something is wrong. Those are for live music, in a new venue per night, not your mastering room.
I'm sorry that you feel that you can't look at something (meters, spectrum analyzers, etc.) and fully listen at the same time. I admit that it is an acquired skill. Obviously you achieve your goals just listening - which is fine. More power to you. Regarding brain power - speak for yourself.

If I taught my students to only listen and ignore visual aides, charts, etc as useless, I wouldn't get the results I get with them. What is being displayed by aides is subject to interpretation. If your interpretation is flawed they become distractions rather than aides.
Old 18th November 2009
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superdisc View Post
What is being displayed by aides is subject to interpretation. If your interpretation is flawed they become distractions rather than aides.
+10
Old 18th November 2009
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antstudio View Post
Enjoyed reading this thread tonight and learned a lot, even with all the distractions of the disagreement over which approach is best. Not sure there is one, they're all just different tools. As my dad would say "different ways to skin the pig". (gotta love forums )
Thanks for stating the "real deal"
Old 18th November 2009
  #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superdisc View Post
... What is being displayed by aides is subject to interpretation. If your interpretation is flawed they become distractions rather than aides.
What is a flawed interpretation? Is that like a flawed opinion?

Charts, note recognition, RTA's.
If you use 'em and it helps you that's great. For me [and every ME I've ever worked with] they are unnecessary.

Just one man's opinion... or interpretation or whatever.
Old 18th November 2009
  #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea View Post
Agreed. However, BK's concepts and/or my position on RTA's are not for guys like you and there is a lot of unnecessary noise being made by some of those who profess the trade. You are at the top of the food chain, this is more for bottom dwellers a-k-a amateurs and beginners, maybe even some intermediate level engineers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterer View Post
What is a flawed interpretation? Is that like a flawed opinion?
Charts, note recognition, RTA's.
If you use 'em and it helps you that's great. For me [and every ME I've ever worked with] they are unnecessary.
Just one man's opinion... or interpretation or whatever.
Hi again, you were expected. Not that Bob D. needs a little help here, but I figured I make one more final push to get through to some of you heavy hitters with many years doing the craft. Got it?
Old 18th November 2009
  #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
In addition to not thinking of frequency numbers,

I should also add, not thinking of deciBels, voltage or electronic circuitry either.

Just you, the sound, your gear, monitoring, and room... and a touch of musical sensitivity.

That's it, as pure of a connection as is possible.

JT
Are you also suggesting that this be taught to aspirants this way? IOW, no intellectual direction whatsoever?

I do a lot of teaching of music. I typically use a lot of intellectual direction, often making liberal use of analogies. However, it has occurred to me on occasion that talking less and forcing the student to listen and emulate ONLY would have some advantage, at least some of the time and with some people. It's an interesting thing for me to ponder.

...and perhaps even act on. heh
Old 19th November 2009
  #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piedpiper View Post
Are you also suggesting that this be taught to aspirants this way? IOW, no intellectual direction whatsoever?
Not really.

Student need lots of technical and musical training.

But Listening comes first.

If they don't have the Ear, they might learn lots of information,

but not be very good at EQ'ing or mastering in general. It's not for everyone.

The point is not to over-think either the musical or the scientific side of EQ'ing.

Just listen, and let your experience & intuition tell you what to do.

Consider the legendary Tom Dowd story, where he paints the meters black to force his people to listen instead of look.

Once you get your room "dialed in" and you know your monitoring and gear well, all that other stuff is just a distraction.

Listen, turn a few knobs, listen again, fine tune if needed, print...

JT

Last edited by Jerry Tubb; 19th November 2009 at 05:30 PM.. Reason: emphasizing Listening as top priority!
Old 19th November 2009
  #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
Not really.
Student need lots of technical and musical training.
But Listening comes first.
If they don't have the Ear, they might learn lots of information,
but not be very good at EQ'ing or mastering in general. It's not for everyone.
The point is not to over-think either the musical or the scientific side of EQ'ing.
Just listen, and let your experience & intuition tell you what to do.
Consider the legendary Tom Dowd story, where he paints the meters black to force his people to listen instead of look
Once you get your room "dialed in" and you know your monitoring and gear well, all that other stuff is just a distraction.
Listen, turn a few knobs, listen again, fine tune if needed, print...
JT
There are two realities here at play and you are neither wrong nor right. Since you like to tell analogies; when you drive your car, do you look at your side-mirrors or, do you turn your head back to check on who is behind?

Regards,
Old 19th November 2009
  #219
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea View Post
There are two realities here at play and you are neither wrong nor right. Since you like to tell analogies; when you drive your car, do you look at your side-mirrors or, do you turn your head back to check on who is behind?

Regards,
Nice analogy. You should write a book!
SB

Last edited by Caput; 19th November 2009 at 10:33 PM.. Reason: wrong emoticon!
Old 19th November 2009
  #220
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UnderTow's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea View Post
when you drive your car, do you look at your side-mirrors or, do you turn your head back to check on who is behind?
Not a good analogy Edward. In both cases the person is looking. That is not comparable to listening or looking. Not that I have a problem with metering. I just don't like bad analogies.

Alistair
Old 19th November 2009
  #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Not a good analogy Edward. In both cases the person is looking. That is not comparable to listening or looking. Not that I have a problem with metering. I just don't like bad analogies.

Alistair
Beg to differ - of course. Same sense modality but different direction doesn't make same sensory information (the brain work very differently - we don't learn to look forward, we do learn to look backward - well, some of us!)

This is not a big point of difference. I like EV style, so.

SB
Old 20th November 2009
  #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Not a good analogy Edward. In both cases the person is looking. That is not comparable to listening or looking. Not that I have a problem with metering. I just don't like bad analogies.

Alistair
Sorry Undertow, it's you who didn't get it. The side-mirrors are metaphors for the use of visual guidance instruments. What you see in those 2 little mirrors and what you interpret have a direct correlation to the real world behind you, in this case the road. The real point is the establishment of trust with them, so that your ability to interpret what you see is correct and it doesn't become just a "distraction".
Old 20th November 2009
  #223
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It's a bad analogy.

We cannot listen as well while processing what we're looking at. This is why most classical musicians can't jam at all, and often lack the fluid intonation of a natural player. This is why an ensemble that has the piece memorized is always better than they were at the last couple of reading rehearsals when they knew it anyway but were busy looking.

Music is about emotions and the feeling of music is as important as anything. Listening with an awareness of the technicals and also feeling it, is plenty to do for anyone. Add in thinking about a graph that's moving? Why bother.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superdisc View Post
If I taught my students to only listen and ignore visual aides, charts, etc as useless, I wouldn't get the results I get with them. What is being displayed by aides is subject to interpretation. If your interpretation is flawed they become distractions rather than aides.

So you're arguing not as an engineer firstly, but a teacher of engineering ... I see. Of course I understand that students need visuals, and schools need formal codification of things to justify their existence. RTAs and such make for a whole week of exciting study, blah, blah, blah. I'm sure it all looks very appealing in the prospectus. People love visuals. I get it.

Are you not simply enabling the profession to become about RTAs and lesser studio rooms, while making a living off of the wants of your customers and misrepresenting the overwhelming majority of professionals? Wondering who taught you this methodology that gives you the authority to teach others these uncertain methods (by your own description) as preferential? Are you endorsed by apprenticeship, unit sales, or satisfied customers? If so, where do you find time to teach?

Excepting the dream of a student for a career in music through your school, and their naivete to hand someone with pretty meters their money ...what makes you so sure of your methods? What percentage of your students are professional MEs, for example?

Why not teach them to get into a great room, and start listening without the crutch of visuals? Oh right ... shorter course. Less money. Less exciting for your customers. My customers are listening, so I'm listening. Makes sense to me.



This conflict of approaches illustrates why I so hated school when it came to music ... the analysis and breakdown of wholes into parts past the point of common sense, and the additional bull**** that lines pockets and makes experts out of people who simply PREFER CODIFICATION over real world experience and in the moment action based on initiative and musical ear. The basics that are taught in engineering schools are not going to make anyone a great engineer. But it will make them average, and keep the teachers employed, so I guess that's something.
Old 20th November 2009
  #224
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If you're looking at the mirrors you're not looking at the road

FWIW Ed - I ain't having a dig here. Been watching all that's going on, and have agreed with a lot of what you've said
Old 20th November 2009
  #225
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Edward_Vinatea's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey View Post
It's a bad analogy. We cannot listen as well while processing what we're looking at. This is why most classical musicians can't jam at all, and often lack the fluid intonation of a natural player. This is why an ensemble that has the piece memorized is always better than they were at the last couple of reading rehearsals when they knew it anyway but were busy looking.

Music is about emotions and the feeling of music is as important as anything. Listening with an awareness of the technicals and also feeling it, is plenty to do for anyone. Add in thinking about a graph that's moving? Why bother.
Lucey, Brian. I am not going to make assumptions as to how good you do mastering or how you do it. But, before you try to insert - yet - more new analogies for my understanding, while in reality it's you who appears to be the one with a misunderstanding on these tools' utility, let me ask you the following:

When you master a song, do you do it all in one pass?

How many times do you actually hear the song or a critical section of one to make your processing decisions?

Can you find a moment to just glance at the RTA while you hear?

Can your brain accept that information for those few seconds without being a "distraction" ?

For example, when I master I hear a song at least 4 times, if not more, and in one of those listening/processing moments, I occasionally look at the RTA to check on things correlating to the sound I hear. What's wrong with that idea?

It has helped me catch things that my ears missed and confirm problems my ears caught. For mixing, forget about! I can't do it as good without it.

So, if you can find a minute of your time to see things, maybe you don't see things but claim to see and understand RTA's. You just proved me you don't. I remind you, you and I are very similar, but this is what sets us apart.

And, your analogy is IMHO, flawed; mastering music is nowhere near the level of concentration required for music performance. And I believe the brain is working at the opposite side.
Old 20th November 2009
  #226
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lucey's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea View Post
And, your analogy is IMHO, flawed; mastering music is nowhere near the level of concentration required for music performance. And I believe the brain is working at the opposite side.
If your system works, but all means go for it. Yet we disagree 100% on both counts. Mastering as I do it is very much like a performance, and takes both sides of the brain.
Old 20th November 2009
  #227
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey View Post
It's a bad analogy.


[/b]
So you're arguing not as an engineer firstly, but a teacher of engineering ... I see. Of course I understand that students need visuals, and schools need formal codification of things to justify their existence. RTAs and such make for a whole week of exciting study, blah, blah, blah. I'm sure it all looks very appealing in the prospectus. People love visuals. I get it.

Are you not simply enabling the profession to become about RTAs and lesser studio rooms, while making a living off of the wants of your customers and misrepresenting the overwhelming majority of professionals? Wondering who taught you this methodology that gives you the authority to teach others these uncertain methods (by your own description) as preferential? Are you endorsed by apprenticeship, unit sales, or satisfied customers? If so, where do you find time to teach?
Unlike BK, I educate first. I have mastered many big hits in my day and have a short list of current clients, some quite successful. You can get more information of my history from my bio, linked on my site.

Most of my mastering is for students who have become clients. I don't accept new clients that aren't students. Most of my students are budding producers and artists and not trying to go in the mastering business or engineering as a profession, although some have done this very successfully..

Actually I do more to get my clients to master things themselves. A usual job for me would be to
1. Master one tune, giving the client a complete description on what I have done, any why.
2. Give suggestions on approaches for other tunes in the same project.
3. Let them finish the project mastering and come back to me if they need more help.

Student clients can use my mastering, copy my settings or modify them or do their own thing.

I don't know where you got the "uncertain methods" from. I teach students the nuts & bolts about DSP and analysis tools, to always listen and how to train their ears and how not to overuse tools.

My goal is to train the project engineer/producer to do a decent job of mastering their own projects.

Quote:

Excepting the dream of a student for a career in music through your school, and their naivete to hand someone with pretty meters their money ...what makes you so sure of your methods? What percentage of your students are professional MEs, for example?

Why not teach them to get into a great room, and start listening without the crutch of visuals? Oh right ... shorter course. Less money. Less exciting for your customers. My customers are listening, so I'm listening. Makes sense to me.
They need to get better results in their rooms - which are virtually never "great" They acheive this goal.

Quote:

This conflict of approaches illustrates why I so hated school when it came to music ... the analysis and breakdown of wholes into parts past the point of common sense, and the additional bull**** that lines pockets and makes experts out of people who simply PREFER CODIFICATION over real world experience and in the moment action based on initiative and musical ear. The basics that are taught in engineering schools are not going to make anyone a great engineer. But it will make them average, and keep the teachers employed, so I guess that's something.
Experience after codification is much more valuable experience. This is both my opinion and my experience.

Any school does not make great engineers. That is not their purpose. Schools train people to get started. That's what their mission is. Experience makes great engineers. Education in the basics makes the experience more valuable.

Employers like to hire trainined people to start - not because they know the techniques that they will use on the job. Virtually every employer wants to train their staff to do it their may. What they like about new employees that have training has to do with how much easier they learn how to do things that the employer wants.
Old 20th November 2009
  #228
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Edward_Vinatea's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey View Post
Yet we disagree 100% on both counts. Mastering as I do it is very much like a performance, and takes both sides of the brain.
Perfect! We agree to disagree

So, do you think you could play Gaspard de la nuit for solo piano while you are talking to someone? And, if you are having a talking client in a session, does he render you useless and throws your concentration off to the point that you are unable to perform any mastering? You know where I am going with these questions, correct?

Take care, Lucey.
Old 20th November 2009
  #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superdisc View Post
Unlike BK, I educate first. I have mastered many big hits in my day and have a short list of current clients, some quite successful. You can get more information of my history from my bio, linked on my site.

Most of my mastering is for students who have become clients. I don't accept new clients that aren't students. Most of my students are budding producers and artists and not trying to go in the mastering business or engineering as a profession, although some have done this very successfully..

Actually I do more to get my clients to master things themselves. A usual job for me would be to
1. Master one tune, giving the client a complete description on what I have done, any why.
2. Give suggestions on approaches for other tunes in the same project.
3. Let them finish the project mastering and come back to me if they need more help.

Student clients can use my mastering, copy my settings or modify them or do their own thing.

I don't know where you got the "uncertain methods" from. I teach students the nuts & bolts about DSP and analysis tools, to always listen and how to train their ears and how not to overuse tools.

My goal is to train the project engineer/producer to do a decent job of mastering their own projects.



They need to get better results in their rooms - which are virtually never "great" They acheive this goal.



Experience after codification is much more valuable experience. This is both my opinion and my experience.

Any school does not make great engineers. That is not their purpose. Schools train people to get started. That's what their mission is. Experience makes great engineers. Education in the basics makes the experience more valuable.

Employers like to hire trainined people to start - not because they know the techniques that they will use on the job. Virtually every employer wants to train their staff to do it their may. What they like about new employees that have training has to do with how much easier they learn how to do things that the employer wants.
Beautiful and intriguing. Nice to see the priority of passing it on, seemingly at your expense. You're providing a very needed service to a growing niche, perhaps the most appropriate response as a ME to the current situation in the industry.
Old 20th November 2009
  #230
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Three words

Psychoacoustics.

Inglewood SoundBarn
Old 20th November 2009
  #231
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piedpiper View Post
Beautiful and intriguing. Nice to see the priority of passing it on, seemingly at your expense. You're providing a very needed service to a growing niche, perhaps the most appropriate response as a ME to the current situation in the industry.
Thanks
Old 20th November 2009
  #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea View Post
Sorry Undertow, it's you who didn't get it. The side-mirrors are metaphors for the use of visual guidance instruments. What you see in those 2 little mirrors and what you interpret have a direct correlation to the real world behind you, in this case the road. The real point is the establishment of trust with them, so that your ability to interpret what you see is correct and it doesn't become just a "distraction".
I get it Edward. Still, it is a bad analogy.

Alistair
Old 21st November 2009
  #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piedpiper View Post
Beautiful and intriguing. Nice to see the priority of passing it on, seemingly at your expense. You're providing a very needed service to a growing niche, perhaps the most appropriate response as a ME to the current situation in the industry.
Or an average engineer teaching others to be average at the expense of the fundamentals of the craft, and music, all to make a buck and validate laziness on the part of mixers.
Old 21st November 2009
  #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea View Post
when you drive your car, do you look at your side-mirrors or, do you turn your head back to check on who is behind?
I've always been a head turner, seeing is believing. That direct connection bespoken.

But in heavy freeway traffic, turning your head can be dangerous, as someone in front of you might brake or change lanes unexpectedly.

A few years ago I bought a truck that's so big that I had to learn to trust the mirrors, esp in crowded traffic & parking conditions.

Austin's stretch of IH-35 is notorious for being uber crowded & hazardous.... so mirrors it is.

But that really has nothing to do with mastering.

Flying by instruments, etc...

Believe me I have been a sinner. Used all of the crutches during mastering; looked at scopes, analyzers, meters (peak, rms, & K), spectrograms, FFTs, pinged a turning fork, checked my guitar, freq charts, and virtual keyboards, and even the legendary VU meter... gasp.

But there is nothing better than turning all of that OFF... and just listening to the track, close your eyes if needed, let your intuition (mind's ear) tell you what adjustments to make, then you quickly reach over and turn a few knobs to make it so. Not even a big thought process, analysis, or second guessing needed.

It's still the best method, period.

To use yet another analogy; using analyzers, meters, and pitch references, is kinda like the aspiring jazz musician who has to keep an eye on the "fake" book while he's playing, in order to remember the melody and chord changes. Although he may play pretty well, and the improvisation might be OK, he never really learns the tunes inside and out, and never really gets to the soul of the music, and becomes a true professional. In fact a great improviser shouldn't even think about chord changes, just play from the heart.

So turn off the analyzers, meters, and pitch references, try took look at the screens as little as needed, and master by ear, deep listening required.

Cheers - JT
Old 21st November 2009
  #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
But there is nothing better than turning all of that OFF... and just listening to the track, close your eyes if needed, let your intuition (mind's ear) tell you what adjustments to make, then you quickly reach over and turn a few knobs to make it so. Not even a big thought process, analysis, or second guessing needed.

It's still the best method, period.
QFT.
Old 21st November 2009
  #236
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Piedpiper's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey View Post
Or an average engineer teaching others to be average at the expense of the fundamentals of the craft, and music, all to make a buck and validate laziness on the part of mixers.
talk about aggressive...

Are you assuming that or are are you directly attacking someone that you have personal experience with?
Old 21st November 2009
  #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
A few years ago I bought a truck that's so big that I had to learn to trust the mirrors
You Texans!


Quote:
Believe me I have been a sinner.
Yes - that giant truck! : - )

Mychal
Old 21st November 2009
  #238
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Piedpiper's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
I've always been a head turner, seeing is believing. That direct connection bespoken.

But in heavy freeway traffic, turning your head can be dangerous, as someone in front of you might brake or change lanes unexpectedly.

A few years ago I bought a truck that's so big that I had to learn to trust the mirrors, esp in crowded traffic & parking conditions.

Austin's stretch of IH-35 is notorious for being uber crowded & hazardous.... so mirrors it is.

But that really has nothing to do with mastering.

Flying by instruments, etc...

Believe me I have been a sinner. Used all of the crutches during mastering; looked at scopes, analyzers, meters (peak, rms, & K), spectrograms, FFTs, pinged a turning fork, checked my guitar, freq charts, and virtual keyboards, and even the legendary VU meter... gasp.

But there is nothing better than turning all of that OFF... and just listening to the track, close your eyes if needed, let your intuition (mind's ear) tell you what adjustments to make, then you quickly reach over and turn a few knobs to make it so. Not even a big thought process, analysis, or second guessing needed.

It's still the best method, period.

To use yet another analogy; using analyzers, meters, and pitch references, is kinda like the aspiring jazz musician who has to keep an eye on the "fake" book while he's playing, in order to remember the melody and chord changes. Although he may play pretty well, and the improvisation might be OK, he never really learns the tunes inside and out, and never really gets to the soul of the music, and becomes a true professional. In fact a great improviser shouldn't even think about chord changes, just play from the heart.

So turn off the analyzers, meters, and pitch references, try took look at the screens as little as needed, and master by ear, deep listening required.

Cheers - JT
This reminds me of a quote from I can't remember which famous jazz player, maybe Coltrane, that went something like: Study, study, study, scales, scales, scales, then forget it all and just blow. Except it sounds like you're denying the importance of the first part. Or maybe you aren't, and you're just saying you have to get through the first part and then get to the last part.
Old 21st November 2009
  #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey View Post
Or an average engineer teaching others to be average at the expense of the fundamentals of the craft, and music, all to make a buck and validate laziness on the part of mixers.
??????

why are you always so angry and why is everyone else always the bad guy?

always. i've been reading your posts for the better part of a decade and it's always the same thing, regardless of topic.
Old 21st November 2009
  #240
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Edward_Vinatea's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
I've always been a head turner, seeing is believing.{snip}
But there is nothing better than turning all of that OFF... and just listening to the track, close your eyes if needed, let your intuition (mind's ear) tell you what adjustments to make, then you quickly reach over and turn a few knobs to make it so. Not even a big thought process, analysis, or second guessing needed.
It's still the best method, period.
{snip}
So turn off the analyzers, meters, and pitch references, try took look at the screens as little as needed, and master by ear, deep listening required.
That's right Jerry, a "head turner" will probably not trust a RTA :-)

I also think you have forgotten the first time someone asked you "Make my mix sound better". Do you think you could have closed your eyes then and did it as you do it now? I doubt that. You have developed a experience through the years and have trained your ears to critically listen for what is necessary to adjust. You have earned the right to be called an engineer. But, when you tell a newbie:
Quote:
there is nothing better than turning all of that OFF... and just listening to the track, close your eyes if needed, let your intuition (mind's ear) tell you what adjustments to make, then you quickly reach over and turn a few knobs to make it so.
I am sure they will feel and hear something completely different than you and it won't help them very much. In fact, it will be just as meaningful as looking at a RTA.

A RTA is not going to teach beginners how to master anything at the moment they install one up, either. It requires lots of observation at first but, it doesn't replace the need to listen. And, it's just a tool which can help you understand how you distribute frequency bands across the spectrum. Most effective if you mix not master. It will work for you only if you are willing to invest some time to understand it completely. Otherwise, it's just a window with meaningless flashing lights. I truly don't care what people think of RTA's on this or any board and I certainly wouldn't spend a minute of my time trying to show those who refuse to listen the things I've learned from them. But again, it doesn't replace listening. It's also clear that RTA's are really not for you. Not for Brad, DC, Chris, Bob K and so many other people who post here, either.

Anyway, I am sure some audio engineers who teach for a living, actually find a use to teach students. They can observe what happens when they use a filter or use a multi-band compressor or how much the harmonic balance changes each time you boost and compress with a limiter, etc. You still need your ears and good monitoring to tell you how good your adjustments are, that will never change.

Take care,
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