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EQ in mastering? Dynamics Plugins
Old 27th November 2009
  #361
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Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea View Post
I am going to do my best to give you a thumbnail definition on what you clearly show a big confusion. If you don't get it, at least I made it clear in this thread to help those who might have gotten confused by your posts.

It doesn't matter how the FFT analysis is performed, real time or not, they are doing the same thing: they are digitizing discrete sample values over time intervals in the time domain which can be stored and recalled from to generate spectrum. The Fourier transform process renders time domain waveforms to frequency domain. The more discrete sample values the more resolution you get and therefore, less spaces between FFT bins. So, an analog signal at a pre-determined frequency can be transformed to the frequency domain using a FFT algorithm. To achieve this function there are several ways to do so. I suspect Har-Bal does its FFT analysis directly from the audio file by measuring mathematically the frequency response {the Fourier transform of the output divided by the Fourier transform of the input} the information is transferred to a memory buffer and then rendered as a graph spectrum analysis. So, no AD conversion or filtering is needed prior to this process. As long as the analyzer is capable of resolving twice the frequency range of interest, the frequency domain information can be stored as discrete sample values. If the Fourier process is calculated before the next time-record is put in the buffer, then the analyzer is considered to be running in "real time".

That all being said, I wouldn't trust HB's algorithm to measure response and would never use it as a teaching tool of anything. I wouldn't use it even as a linear phase equalizer. But that's just me. If you really want to teach your students how frequency distribution across the spectrum works and to understand about harmonic balance, then use a good quality spectrum analyzer. Mind you that those hardware units commonly known as swept spectrum analyzers, which are best suited for ultra-high frequencies, are expensive tools and don't have phase information or sufficient speed to do good transient analysis. Thus, any quality software FFT analyzer would be good to measure a basic resolution bandwidth of 20kHz.

I hope you understand now why your ban-RTA pic made absolutely no sense.
Edward.

If you think that looking at an RTA makes you a better mastering engineer then use it. I have been saying that since the beginning of this thread. Do what ever pleases you. You don't have to keep proving to any and all what a great tool an RTA is. I think by now we all get that you use an RTA and think that it is important in your work. If it makes your work easier. more accurate or more fun then use it.

As to teaching. I use many tools to help my students learn about audio and mastering. Since you seem to nit pick on everything I say I am not inclined to list them here but suffice it to say that I use the best tools I can to help my students in their quest for knowledge.

I had a GREAT Thanksgiving with plenty to eat and some time off.

I hope you had a GREAT turkey (or the vegetarian equivalent) day as well!
Old 27th November 2009
  #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
If you think that looking at an RTA makes you a better mastering engineer then use it. I have been saying that since the beginning of this thread. Do what ever pleases you. You don't have to keep proving to any and all what a great tool an RTA is. I think by now we all get that you use an RTA and think that it is important in your work. If it makes your work easier. more accurate or more fun then use it.
As to teaching. I use many tools to help my students learn about audio and mastering. Since you seem to nit pick on everything I say I am not inclined to list them here but suffice it to say that I use the best tools I can to help my students in their quest for knowledge.
It's not nit picking, Thomas, let me explain. When somebody goes through the trouble of using a free copy of TrueRTA to make a screen shot then spend more time photoshoping it with a ban symbol and with text "JUST SAY NO", I don't expect them to be using another analyzer product like Har-Bal! Let alone to teach with it. It's certainly not funny in the context of this thread as Lupo suggested above. It actually would have been hilarious if he had done it. My point is that asking people to listen without an analyzer is one thing, and I have absolutely no problem with that. But, what I have a problem with is your alleged "teaching" students with analyzers and then turn around creating a pic that suggests that analyzers should be banned. On the other hand, if you have never said that you use them in a serious manner then, your pic would have achieved the comedic effect some people may see in it. And just like you, I've also been saying all along to rely on your hearing first, but it falls on deaf ears.

So, you or anyone can create a pic like that for laughter and if you believe analyzers are nothing but a big joke. I can care less. But, don't insult my intelligence by saying that you use analyzers to teach people at the same time.

I hope I made my position clear and it's time to go back to topic.
Old 27th November 2009
  #363
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Hey Tom, Hope you had a great Toikey Day!

You describe an excellent training regimen, much like the ear training courses for engineers used here:

Sound Recording Technology : Texas State University

They kick it up a notch as well adding other elements to the ear training. These guys are very thorough with a scientific approach. Our Studio B engineer Nick graduated "top of his class" from this program a few years ago. Analyzing audio & mix problems by ear is mere child's play for Nick. He doesn't waste a lot of time staring at RTAs, or reading/posting in the forums.

Having the neutral third party administer testing and check the results is valuable part. Testing oneself is good, but it's so easy to skew/deny the results.

The whole problems with Analyzers is in relying on them to make EQ decisions, and the never "Cutting the Cord" and flying solo without them. At some point a professional ME needs to eschew the training wheels, and only go to an RTA when it's actually needed.

A better use of time than relying on RTAs would be to do a little ear some ear training exercises "off the clock & unattended" to help one tone up their skills, better yet with the buddy sysytem. Much like an athletes work do training and physical therapist, with a trainer, when not actually playing the game. Many of the best singers still use a vocal coach to help them stay on top of their game.

Many professional engineers get so busy with real session work, back to back sessions for years on end, that we forget to check and tune up our skills outside of actual work.

Best Regards - JT

Quote:
Originally Posted by masteringhouse View Post
Here's another "challenge" similar to Jerry's but a little more serious (I think).

Run a track of music through an EQ that is broken up into 3 bands, a shelf at 250Hz, parametric covering 250 to 2.5K, and a shelf from 2.5k up (or bands of your choosing). Call the first band "bass", second "mids" and third "treble". At the same time run an RTA.

Start by having someone quiz you by using large cuts/boosts maybe 12 db and name the change (e.g. bass boost, mid cut, etc.) using no RTA, using an RTA, and an RTA with sound off (while the other person does not allow you to see the changes on the EQ of course).

Next gradually decrease the amount of boost or cut and continue the process, see which becomes more accurate as you decrease the amount to 1 or .5 db.

Then continue the process by using more bands starting with an octave and contunue decreasing the bandwidth in specific frequency ranges, e.g. 100Hz and below, an octave at 250Hz ...

Not only will you start to rely less on an RTA (and possibly see why it becomes useless for some types of work) but you will be training yourself to hear named frequency ranges more accurately.
Old 28th November 2009
  #364
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Hey Jerry. Had a great Thanksgiving, or is it called Thanksmas?

At any rate hope yours was great too.

I would be curious to hear other techniques that schools are using. This is the first set of ear training that I do with my students at Lebanon Valley College PA along with identifying types of compression using burst tones (easier to hear attack and release times than in music when starting).

In addition to the buddy system I recommend creating a CD with several tracks of boosts/cuts. Then play the CD in random shuffle mode and compare your result with a track listing.

Best,
Tom
Old 28th November 2009
  #365
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Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 

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I usually start my students off with this CD series Moulton Laboratories :: Golden Ears and have them read this Mastering Audio Book and this Amazon.com: Understanding Audio: Getting the Most Out of Your Project or Professional Recording Studio (0073999919806): Daniel M. Thompson: Books. If they can get through all of this we can start the real hands on training.
Old 28th November 2009
  #366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
I usually start my students off with this CD series Moulton Laboratories :: Golden Ears and have them read this Mastering Audio Book and this Amazon.com: Understanding Audio: Getting the Most Out of Your Project or Professional Recording Studio (0073999919806): Daniel M. Thompson: Books. If they can get through all of this we can start the real hands on training.
Thanks Tom.

I also use Bob's book along with other articles. I have Moulton's CDs but prefer the more incremental approach that I use. I can tailor the exercises better toward the general weaknesses that the class might be experiencing. Also I can use music from projects that they will be working on later and the other music I choose is a bit more interesting to listen to
Old 28th November 2009
  #367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea View Post
It's not nit picking, Thomas, let me explain. When somebody goes through the trouble of using a free copy of TrueRTA to make a screen shot then spend more time photoshoping it with a ban symbol and with text "JUST SAY NO", I don't expect them to be using another analyzer product like Har-Bal! Let alone to teach with it. It's certainly not funny in the context of this thread as Lupo suggested above. It actually would have been hilarious if he had done it. My point is that asking people to listen without an analyzer is one thing, and I have absolutely no problem with that. But, what I have a problem with is your alleged "teaching" students with analyzers and then turn around creating a pic that suggests that analyzers should be banned. On the other hand, if you have never said that you use them in a serious manner then, your pic would have achieved the comedic effect some people may see in it. And just like you, I've also been saying all along to rely on your hearing first, but it falls on deaf ears.

So, you or anyone can create a pic like that for laughter and if you believe analyzers are nothing but a big joke. I can care less. But, don't insult my intelligence by saying that you use analyzers to teach people at the same time.

I hope I made my position clear and it's time to go back to topic.
Edward V,

Yes you do tend to nit pick!

You are very secretive about your setup and what equipment you use for mastering so I know nothing about your setup. You have no pictures on your website and have revealed little on this forum about your equipment or methods except that you use RTAs. If you are not using full range speakers in an acoustically designed space then maybe you have to reply on an RTA to tell you if you have frequency problems in the bass or extreme high treble areas. That is your decision and your way of working and if it works for you and your clients then GREAT!

What ever the reason use the RTA tools you have as you see fit. It is your studio and you are the mastering engineer so what ever tools you chose are the correct ones for you.

As to the picture I posted I did it for fun as this topic was going nowhere fast.

As to teaching. In my 40 plus years in professional audio I have mentored or taught in a classroom over 500 + students about audio. Many of them have gone on to become professional audio engineers or are working in allied fields. It has always been my philosophy to help young engineers and musicians achieve their full potential either by mentoring them or helping them by doing their mastering and at the same time helping them understand the whole process of recording, mixing and mastering. I have always had great mentors helping me learn and I want to help others in the same way. If you see a problem in that philosophy I don't know what to say.

You seem to be obsessed that I use HARBAL but it is only one tool in a whole arsenal of teaching tools. I am sorry now I even mentioned it.

Hope I answered all of your questions and we can get BACK ON TOPIC!

Thanks!
Old 28th November 2009
  #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
You are very secretive about your setup and what equipment you use for mastering so I know nothing about your setup. You have no pictures on your website
Thanks!
No. When Darwin James asked for pictures of setup EV was one of the first to send his in.

SB
Old 28th November 2009
  #369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
Edward V,
Yes you do tend to nit pick!
{noise snipped}
As to teaching. In my 40 plus years in professional audio I have mentored or taught in a classroom over 500 + students about audio. Many of them have gone on to become professional audio engineers or are working in allied fields. It has always been my philosophy to help young engineers and musicians achieve their full potential either by mentoring them or helping them by doing their mastering and at the same time helping them understand the whole process of recording, mixing and mastering. I have always had great mentors helping me learn and I want to help others in the same way. If you see a problem in that philosophy I don't know what to say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
I think you are getting spectrum analysis and REAL time Analyzer mixed up. They are different. A REAL time analyzer works in REAL time. Spectrum analysis can work in real time but in HARBAL does not. It is all a matter of semantics but the devil is in the details as any good mastering engineer knows.
All spectrum analyzers are the same application. You are teaching your students to understand basic concepts wrong. So, I hope you tell them in your next class that you learned something new at Gearslutz.com. And, my equipment is not the topic of the thread.
Old 28th November 2009
  #370
kjg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea View Post
You are teaching your students to understand basic concepts wrong.
which basic concepts would that be?
Old 28th November 2009
  #371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjg View Post
which basic concepts would that be?
The concept of spectrum analysis, Klaas-Jan
Old 28th November 2009
  #372
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Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea View Post
All spectrum analyzers are the same. You are teaching your students to understand basic concepts wrong. So, I hope you tell them in your next class that you learned something new at Gearslutz.com. And, my equipment is not the topic of the thread.
Wrong!

All Spectrum analyzers are not the same. That is a pretty sweeping statement and simply not true.

Some have 31 bands-some have more- some have less. Some are very precise. Some are at best guesses like the ones that are included with WMP. They are as different as the people who post here on Gearslutz. Some are used in real time (RTAs) some like HARBAL have to analyze the entire selection or piece before they draw a plot.

I can provide web links if you need them.

If you are going to correct someone at least get your facts strait. Thanks
Old 28th November 2009
  #373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
Wrong!

All Spectrum analyzers are not the same. That is a pretty sweeping statement and simply not true.

Some have 31 bands-some have more- some have less. Some are very precise. Some are at best guesses like the ones that are included with WMP. They are as different as the people who post here on Gearslutz. Some are used in real time (RTAs) some like HARBAL have to analyze the entire selection or piece before they draw a plot.

I can provide web links if you need them.

If you are going to correct someone at least get your facts strait. Thanks
Show me the links that state that real time analyzers and spectrum analyzers are different then.
Old 28th November 2009
  #374
kjg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea View Post
The concept of spectrum analysis, Klaas-Jan
really? that is quite curious. what about the "concept" of spectrum analysis is he teaching his students wrong then?

I am pretty sure you couldn't explain how different methods of frequency analysis work to save your life.
so what exactly were you correcting him on?

was it that you were saying that harbal DOES have a freq/mag/time display while he was saying he wouldn't consider it an RTA?

that really doesn't have anything to do with the "concept" of spectrum analysis. so what was it you were teaching him?
Old 28th November 2009
  #375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjg View Post
really? that is quite curious. what about the "concept" of spectrum analysis is he teaching his students wrong then?
Ask that question to him.
Quote:
I am pretty sure you couldn't explain how different methods of frequency analysis work to save your life.
so what exactly were you correcting him on?
Please read his posts, he claims that real time analyzers are different from spectrum analyzers while in reality they all are spectrum analyzers. they all convert time domain to frequency domain and are only limited by their processing capacity and configuration. Binwidth, center frequencies, time windows, , maximum bandwidth resolution, etc, etc are just their common denominators. However, there is more room for discussion with analog units and some of the newer analog/digital models. Bottom line, there are 2 types of spectrum analyzers: The FFT kind and the swept frequency kind.
Quote:
was it that you were saying that harbal DOES have a freq/mag/time display while he was saying hey wouldn't consider it an RTA?
It's a matter of function, how you get it done is irrelevant. If you believe he only uses the analyzer part and skips the equalizer, fine but I wouldn't use that to show frequency response plots. I also don't want to turn this thread into a Harbal related thread.
Quote:
that really doesn't have anything to do with the "concept" of spectrum analysis. so what was it you were teaching him?
It has to to do with the object, fine, talk about being nit-picking. Let him come up with his own questions.
Old 28th November 2009
  #376
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Edward V,

Start with this Spectrum analyzer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Then read this Real Time Analyzer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Read http://www.har-bal.com/files/Har-Bal%20Manual.pdf especially this part

"HarBal will proceed to analyze the spectrum content. This may take some time depending upon the length of the track and the speed of your computer but once done the result is saved to disk for re-use." PLEASE NOTE THIS IS NOT DONE IN REAL TIME BUT STILL A SPECTRUM ANALYZER. HARBAL IS NOT AN RTA.

This is a hardware spectrum analyzer Avcom SNG-2500C Rack Mount Spectrum Analyzer « Satcom Resources Blog Note precision with what it displays the frequencies.

This is a hardware 31 band digital frequency analyzer Samson D-1500 31 Band Real Time Analyzer B-Stock NOTE that this is nowhere near as detailed as the one above ^.

This is a 10 band frequency analyzer for WMP DFX Audio Enhancer for Windows Media Player - Free software downloads and software reviews - CNET Download.com which is used more for looking at than measurements.

I can go on for quite a while with lots of different websites BUT I think you see that there is a BIG difference between an RTA and a spectrum analyzer and there are many different flavors of each so they are NOT the same!

Let me sum it up. An RTA is a special kind of spectrum analyzer that does its analysis in REAL TIME. There are spectrum analyzers that are NOT real time. There are also RTAs that really don't give you a true idea of the total spectrum since they break sound into 31 set frequencies or less and display it on a series of LED lights or as moving dots on a computer screen. There are software and hardware equivalents of both types of analyzers. There are many different types of spectrum analyzers made for different reasons and purposes. If you say all frequency analyzers are the same you are not relaying the correct information.

Do some reading on the net and you will see what I am talking about. Thanks for your time an attention in this matter!
Old 28th November 2009
  #377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
Edward V,

Start with this Spectrum analyzer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Then read this Real Time Analyzer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Read http://www.har-bal.com/files/Har-Bal%20Manual.pdf especially this part

"HarBal will proceed to analyze the spectrum content. This may take some time depending upon the length of the track and the speed of your computer but once done the result is saved to disk for re-use." PL:EASE NOTE THIS IS NOT DONE IN REAL TIME BUT STILL A SPECTRUM ANALYZER. HARBAL IS NOT AN RTA.

This is a hardware spectrum analyzer Avcom SNG-2500C Rack Mount Spectrum Analyzer « Satcom Resources Blog Note precision with what it displays the frequencies.

This is a hardware 31 band digital frequency analyzer Samson D-1500 31 Band Real Time Analyzer B-Stock NOTE that this isno where near as detailed as the one above ^.

This is a 10 band frequency analyzer for WMP DFX Audio Enhancer for Windows Media Player - Free software downloads and software reviews - CNET Download.com which is used more for looking at than measurements.

I can go on for quite a while with lots of different websites BUT I think you see that there is a BIG difference between an RTA and a spectrum analyzer and there are many different flavors of each so they are NOT the same!

Let me sum it up. An RTA is a special kind of spectrum analyzer that does its analysis in REAL TIME. There are spectrum analyzers that are NOT real time. There are also RTAs that really don't give you a true idea of the total spectrum since they break sound into 31 set frequencies or less and display it on a series of LED lights or as moving dots on a computer screen. There are software and hardware equivalents of both types of analyzers. There are many different types of spectrum analyzers made for different reasons and purposes. If you say all frequency analyzers are the same you are not relaying the correct information.

Do some reading on the net and you will see what I am talking about. Thanks for your time an attention in this matter!
Thomas, you twist words to confuse and deviate from the subject. The subject is about the spectrum analyzer's application. In layman's terms, you believe a real time analyzer is not a spectrum analyzer because it displays the analysis in "real time". How can you believe that a RTA is not a spectrum analyzer? Where did you read that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
I think you are getting spectrum analysis and REAL time Analyzer mixed up. They are different. A REAL time analyzer works in REAL time.
How could you also believe that I didn't know what RTA stood for, or assume that I don't understand the difference in their FFT computing time? Are you serious?

If after all the time I have spent to explain to you above you still don't understand that they have the same function only different time records, display resolutions and bandwidths, then there is nothing I can say that will change your position, I guess. For the last time: whether an FFT analyzer is considered real time or not is determined by the computing time of the FFT. And, please, don't post more little "notes" for me to read papers or articles on the subject. You believe whatever you want to believe, "teach" whatever you want to those people. I am not interested.

You have single handedly created a new "type" of analyzer to the family to make yourself look right. I am done with you.
Old 28th November 2009
  #378
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I'm waiting for the faster than real-time analyzer.

That would speed up my work tremendously.


DC
Old 29th November 2009
  #379
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
I'm waiting for the faster than real-time analyzer.

That would speed up my work tremendously.


DC
Dave do you mean a PSA (predictive spectrum analyzer)? Basically it's an RTA with a look-ahead buffer.
Old 29th November 2009
  #380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by masteringhouse View Post
Dave do you mean a PSA (predictive spectrum analyzer)? Basically it's an RTA with a look-ahead buffer.
That is so ten light-years ago.

What I'm proposing is the Superluminal Peak Limiter and Transmogrifier. Or SPLAT, for short. It can actually look-ahead to before the song is even written, remove the offending notes, and replace the very thoughts of the songwriter before the damage is done.

The color display is patent pending so I can't discuss it here.

Hope this helps!
Attached Thumbnails
EQ in mastering?-ae.jpg  
Old 29th November 2009
  #381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post

It can actually look-ahead to before the song is even written, remove the offending notes, and replace the very thoughts of the songwriter before the damage is done.
That's already been tried. It was called the PMRC and it didn't work out too well.
Old 29th November 2009
  #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glassmaster View Post
That's already been tried. It was called the PMRC and it didn't work out too well.
I've always thought that Tipper should have won the Nobel Peace Prize.
Old 29th November 2009
  #383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edward_vinatea View Post
And, please, don't post more little "notes" for me to read papers or articles on the subject. You believe whatever you want to believe, "teach" whatever you want to those people. I am not interested.
I am done with you.


GREAT then you can get back on topic. Thanks!



And you were the one that asked for web links which is what I provided. If you don't want the truth then don't ask for it. Here is what you said "Show me the links that state that real time analyzers and spectrum analyzers are different then."
Old 29th November 2009
  #384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
The color display is patent pending so I can't discuss it here.
Much like Picard's Holodeck I assume,

with the ME gleefully skipping through a Holographic Spectrogram,

erasing and rearranging color keyed orbs (by frequency & amplitude) to suit his/her fancy.

JT
Old 29th November 2009
  #385
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
It can actually look-ahead to before the song is even written, remove the offending notes, and replace the very thoughts of the songwriter before the damage is done.
I need one of those. I've got damaged manuscripts all over the studio.

Mychal
Old 29th November 2009
  #386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glassmaster View Post
That's already been tried. It was called the PMRC and it didn't work out too well.
hilarious
Old 29th November 2009
  #387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
GREAT then you can get back on topic. Thanks!
I thought I detected a disturbance in the force:

************************* - Stay Away from Recording.Org

DC
Old 29th November 2009
  #388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
I thought I detected a disturbance in the force:

************************* - Stay Away from Recording.Org

DC
I cannot access his site. I have been banned.

This is what I get when I try and access his site.

our PHP settings have been disabled by an H-Sphere administrator.

* Your current PHP configuration:
* --> This configuration was changed:

Please bring your PHP configuration in compliance with admin settings or request your administrator to re-enable support of your settings.

You don't have permissions to access this page. This usually means one of the following:

* this file and directory permissions make them unavailable from the Internet.
* .htaccess contains instructions that prevent public access to this file or directory.

Please check file and directory permissions and .htaccess configuration if you are able to do this. Otherwise, request your webmaster to grant you access.

FWIW which isn't much!
Old 29th November 2009
  #389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
I cannot access his site. I have been banned.
I have had a look and I think you will be happier not looking.

SB
Old 29th November 2009
  #390
Elk
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
I cannot access his site. I have been banned.
It is a re-posting of the content of (************************* - Stay Away from Recording.Org), a claim that quoting the Music Mastering on Line site is "illegal" (and a copyright violation) and encourages its members to avoid Recording.org, describers its moderator as "contentious and lazy" and its content "LAME."

Best ignored.

(I summarize it here so those that cannot see it know what is being referenced.)
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