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EQ in mastering? Dynamics Plugins
Old 25th November 2009
  #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caput View Post
Actually I do follow some of the `latest research' as its my previous career and my wife's present one.
What are those careers? What do you know that reinforces your point? If I read you right, you're saying genes play a very small role in determining one's gifts, propensities, talents and so on.



Quote:
But not the part of destiny we are talking about here - engineering skill and so on. We are born much more half-wired than hard-wired and opportunities and choices and experience make the difference.

Mychal
Old 25th November 2009
  #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peakly View Post
What are those careers? What do you know that reinforces your point? If I read you right, you're saying genes play a very small role in determining one's gifts, propensities, talents and so on.






Mychal
I hope this is a serious question. My wife is a clinical neurophysiologist, and up to 10 years ago I used to do clinical research on neonatal spatial orientation (how a baby learns to know for example where her hands are and what happens to other abilities when this fails). All I am saying is that there is sure evidence that what we previously thought was hardwired (as I was taught) actually needs environmental input starting with inter-uterine and then serious early days stimulation. We do not know either when this need starts in the foetus, or when it stops in the child. We cannot quantify how much genes fully determine, but we can say less than we thought, nothing as specific as certain talents, and not enough to stop old dogs from trying to learn new tricks. My research colleague used to say - my father is a cartographer, if talent is inherited how come I'm always getting lost? It is a joke, but probably loses something in the tranlsation.

SB

I think this is all interesting of course but very off-topic and so as previous poster said maybe it should close now.
Old 25th November 2009
  #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caput View Post
IWe cannot quantify how much genes fully determine, but we can say less than we thought, nothing as specific as certain talents, and not enough to stop old dogs from trying to learn new tricks.
"Nothing as specific as certain talents." So you are denyiing the possibility of giftedness, or talent? That seems extreme.

A quick thought from my own family - one of my sons is seventeen. From a very early age he has demonstrated a great ear for music. He would easily sing complex jazz guitar passages, hours or days after he heard them. I have another son who is 16 - he doesn't have the same musical ear, but he is very strong in sports. The older brother also has hands that are perfect for guitar or piano, which would be a beautiful match for his musical ear. The younger brother does not.

Why is one brother so gifted in certain related areas, and his brother is not? They have been almost inseparable since birth. Their best friends throughout their lives have been each other. They were both exposed to the same things right from birth.

By the way, much to the disappointment of his grandmother, the older son has not learned to play an instrument and is definitely not planning a career in music. But his ear is still great, and getting better all the time. I can tell just by the things he says, and how well he hears things.



Quote:
I find it difficult to determine where to boost and cut.
That quote was in the original post of this thread. I think this subject is relevant to the poster's statement that he is having difficulty hearing how to eq.

Mychal
Old 25th November 2009
  #334
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peakly View Post
"Nothing as specific as certain talents." So you are denyiing the possibility of giftedness, or talent? That seems extreme.
Mychal
No: I was very careful in my reporting of the research - there is no specific gene for specific talents, and many specific differences - ok, of gift and talent - may be due to environments (e.g. interuterine - nutrition and stimulation - the first hours after birth) whose effects we are only just discovering.

If you want to continue this maybe you should PM me with an e-mail so we can take this off the public forum?

SB

p.s. Damien Hirst on talent last week. `I don't believe in genius. I believe in freedom. I think anyone can do it. Anyone can be like Rembrandt. Its about freedom and guts. It's about looking. It can be learned. Anyone can do it if you just believe.'

Even I find this extreme (but still anecdotally interesting)

Last edited by Caput; 25th November 2009 at 12:37 PM.. Reason: added ps
Old 25th November 2009
  #335
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Please don't take it to PM's! This is interesting.
Old 25th November 2009
  #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupo View Post
Please don't take it to PM's! This is interesting.
Ok that suits me. We are straying off topic though --- and now my wife is reading GS!

SB
Old 25th November 2009
  #337
Old 25th November 2009
  #338
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Riccardo's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caput View Post
Ok that suits me. We are straying off topic though --- and now my wife is reading GS!

SB
Please start a new thread if you wish.
Cheers
Old 25th November 2009
  #339
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UnderTow's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caput View Post
Ok that suits me. We are straying off topic though --- and now my wife is reading GS!

SB
Frankly I don't think we are. If anything, these types of discussion are more interesting and useful than going back and forth about RTAs.

(Longer more in depth response to your previous post later today).

PS: In response to Riccardo, I intend to relate my response to EQing and mastering.

Alistair
Old 25th November 2009
  #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupo View Post
Please don't take it to PM's! This is interesting.
I'm with you. It seems relevant to the topic.



Quote:
In response to Riccardo, I intend to relate my response to EQing and mastering.

Alistair
I'm looking forward to reading that, whether it's in this thread or another one.

Mychal
Old 25th November 2009
  #341
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Edward_Vinatea's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
I thought you were the only on this forum who uses Har-Bal as a RTA, why are you now asking people to say "no" to its use? heh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
As to HARBAL...I have a copy in my studio, I use it as a teaching tool to show clients/interns the before and after of frequency response plot of their mastering. It is a very good tool for showing the differences.
Old 25th November 2009
  #342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peakly View Post
What are those careers? What do you know that reinforces your point? If I read you right, you're saying genes play a very small role in determining one's gifts, propensities, talents and so on.
I think it's a combination of DNA and Environment.

Some folks are born with a musical ear, some aren't.

Both can be improved by environment and training.

But the person born with it, will always come by it naturally.

(then the danger is taking it for granted)

Over the years I've met many thousands of musicians in attended sessions.

I've often seen it in singers.

Some are just born with great pipes, some aren't.

The lucky ones have great pipes and grow up in a musical environment.

Same goes for guitarristas and other musicians.

One of my friends is a musician (bassist) that grew up in a musical family where he was Expected to be great.

Talent just oozed out of this guy, he could trip and fall on his bass, and make more music than someone with meager gifts that had taken lessons for 20 years.

But ironically he didn't have the discipline to work it out properly, always felt like an underdog because he wasn't quite as good as other members of his family.

One relative (by marriage) loves music as much as anyone.

But he can't carry a tune in a bucket as they say, couldn't match pitch, even if you held a billion dollars in front of him.

So yes environment does play a big part in musical development, but genetic talent is the majority of it.

The same may go for mastering engineers, a mixture of talent, environment, training, skills, and approaches.

Hence the many debates on what is the right way : - )

mtcw - JT
Old 25th November 2009
  #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
I think it's a combination of DNA and Environment.

- JT
Your anecdotal evidence is well confirmed. But DNA has no direct role. I have started another thread on this. So, see you there.

SB
Old 25th November 2009
  #344
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Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caput View Post
Your anecdotal evidence is well confirmed. But DNA has no direct role. I have started another thread on this. So, see you there.

SB
I'll pass.

Thousands of years of human history and "anecdotal evidence" trumps an exciting new theory!

Do you have a book or software to sell?

JT
Old 25th November 2009
  #345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
I think it's a combination of DNA and Environment.

Some folks are born with a musical ear, some aren't.
And some people know what sounds good, and others don't.
Old 25th November 2009
  #346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
I'll pass.

Thousands of years of human history and "anecdotal evidence" trumps an exciting new theory!

Do you have a book or software to sell?

JT
We are just understanding those years of history and how to interpret that evidence. There is no exciting new theory, just standard slow advance of science. My wife and her colleagues use this science to help birth-damaged children achieve their best (educating parents so they do not give up too soon). Her results (some good, some bad) feeds back to the research institutes and so there is a cycle of advance.

So. No, fool, I don't have a book or software to sell; I am no longer in the field (you didn't read the earlier post); I play and produce jazz and and have started reading GS on the advice of an ME I have worked with as I woudl like to learn more about the field. I have learned from EV and Bob Katz and Lucey and others and smiled along with DC. But he said there would also be an arse like you at times and to ignore them but for no reason you have irritated and insulted a dedicated healer and this I can not ignore or forgive.

SB
Old 25th November 2009
  #347
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Edward_Vinatea's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tupac View Post
ha, ha. pay no attention to this guy, Edwrad, he is theone who "engages in ocasional trolling activities" and no mod can ban him because he is an old guy.
Thank God you know how to use commas Yes, you can certainly design sounds with visual guidance. I suspect the logic started from the early days when file size was an issue, but the most practical use is to see how equalization changes distribution of frequencies across the spectrum and making sure that you have no unnecessary or surprising overshoots that are detrimental to the sound being designed.

Regards,
Old 25th November 2009
  #348
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macc's Avatar
 

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tupac and Caput, are you related?
Old 25th November 2009
  #349
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Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea View Post
I thought you were the only on this forum who uses Har-Bal as a RTA, why are you now asking people to say "no" to its use? heh

I am sure you know as well as I that HARBAL is short for Harmonic Balancer and has NOTHING to do with RTAs* so your statement is some what superfluous.

I would have thought that with all your technical prowess you would not have made that mistake.

Have a GOOD turkey day!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*RTA stands for REAL time analyzer and HARBAL is not designed to do RTA. It does do nice graphs but that is all I use it for. FYI
Old 25th November 2009
  #350
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by macc View Post
tupac and Caput, are you related?
No.

"The name "Caputo", common in the Campania region of Italy, comes from the title used by some Roman military generals, and a variant form has surfaced more recently in the title Capo ( or Caporegime), the head of La Cosa Nostra."

I am Italian. My English wife calls me this when she wants me to do something. I think it is meant to be ironic.

SB
Old 25th November 2009
  #351
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Edward_Vinatea's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
I am sure you know as well as I that HARBAL is short for Harmonic Balancer and has NOTHING to do with RTAs so your statement is some what superfluous.

I would have thought that with all your technical prowess you would not have made that mistake.
So, you use Har-Bal to "teach", but what else are you teaching if not frequency bands distribution across the spectrum? Did you know what you purchased in the first place? from the Har-Bal website:
Quote:
This superior method of EQ'ing and harmonic balancing gives Har-Bal it's distinction as the premiere spectrum analyzer for the most important step in the CD mastering process.
Have a nice "turkey" yourself, Thomas
Old 25th November 2009
  #352
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Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caput View Post
We are just understanding those years of history and how to interpret that evidence. There is no exciting new theory, just standard slow advance of science. My wife and her colleagues use this science to help birth-damaged children achieve their best (educating parents so they do not give up too soon). Her results (some good, some bad) feeds back to the research institutes and so there is a cycle of advance.

So. No, fool, I don't have a book or software to sell; I am no longer in the field (you didn't read the earlier post); I play and produce jazz and and have started reading GS on the advice of an ME I have worked with as I woudl like to learn more about the field. I have learned from EV and Bob Katz and Lucey and others and smiled along with DC. But he said there would also be an arse like you at times and to ignore them but for no reason you have irritated and insulted a dedicated healer and this I can not ignore or forgive.

SB
Well I wouldn't want to be against anything that promotes the healthy birthing of babies.

I know that what happens in the first two years of a child's life is very important.

So I wish you good luck on your endeavors.

Ciao - JT
Old 25th November 2009
  #353
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Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea View Post
So, you use Har-Bal to "teach", but what else are you teaching if not frequency bands distribution across the spectrum? Did you know what you purchased in the first place? from the Har-Bal website:Have a nice "turkey" yourself, Thomas
I think you are getting spectrum analysis and REAL time Analyzer mixed up. They are different. A REAL time analyzer works in REAL time. Spectrum analysis can work in real time but in HARBAL does not. It is all a matter of semantics but the devil is in the details as any good mastering engineer knows.
Old 25th November 2009
  #354
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Edward_Vinatea's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
I think you are getting spectrum analysis and REAL time Analyzer mixed up. They are different. A REAL time analyzer works in REAL time. Spectrum analysis can work in real time but in HARBAL it does not.
Yep, makes perfect sense . So, are you only against "Real Time" analyzers? heh

And you say my technical prowess is flawed and I am all mixed up? Are you finally done?
Old 26th November 2009
  #355
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Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea View Post
Yep, makes perfect sense . So, are you only against "Real Time" analyzers? heh

And you say my technical prowess is flawed and I am all mixed up? Are you finally done?
Never said I was against RTAs.

They have their place and are useful in sound contracting, sound reinforcement and acoustical measurements. They could also be useful in other areas.

I still maintain that your EARS are more IMPORTANT when it comes to mastering than your EYES but as I have said a number of times before what every works for you use it.

Now I am done!
Old 26th November 2009
  #356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
I've often seen it in singers.

Some are just born with great pipes, some aren't.
Ain't that the truth? I wish I could order a set of those pipes for myself.



Quote:
So yes environment does play a big part in musical development, but genetic talent is the majority of it.
That's been my experience, too. But like you said, it depends what the gifted person does with those gifts. The ones that really excel recognize what their talents are, and then work like mad to make the most of them.

Mychal
Old 26th November 2009
  #357
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Adam Dempsey's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
One of my friends is a musician (bassist) that grew up in a musical family where he was Expected to be great.

Talent just oozed out of this guy, he could trip and fall on his bass, and make more music than someone with meager gifts that had taken lessons for 20 years.
"this band is so soulful, you could've put a reel of 1" tape in the middle of the room, and the magnetic particles on the tape would've jumped into place". - Joe Gastwirt (2001) on the Persuasions album, 'Might as Well'.

A bit like clients of mine who sold out the venue at their CD launch last night..
Old 27th November 2009
  #358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
Never said I was against RTAs.
I am going to do my best to give you a thumbnail definition on what you clearly show a big confusion. If you don't get it, at least I made it clear in this thread to help those who might have gotten confused by your posts.

It doesn't matter how the FFT analysis is performed, real time or not, they are doing the same thing: they are digitizing discrete sample values over time intervals in the time domain which can be stored and recalled from to generate spectrum. The Fourier transform process renders time domain waveforms to frequency domain. The more discrete sample values the more resolution you get and therefore, less spaces between FFT bins. So, an analog signal at a pre-determined frequency can be transformed to the frequency domain using a FFT algorithm. To achieve this function there are several ways to do so. I suspect Har-Bal does its FFT analysis directly from the audio file by measuring mathematically the frequency response {the Fourier transform of the output divided by the Fourier transform of the input} the information is transferred to a memory buffer and then rendered as a graph spectrum analysis. So, no AD conversion or filtering is needed prior to this process. As long as the analyzer is capable of resolving twice the frequency range of interest, the frequency domain information can be stored as discrete sample values. If the Fourier process is calculated before the next time-record is put in the buffer, then the analyzer is considered to be running in "real time".

That all being said, I wouldn't trust HB's algorithm to measure response and would never use it as a teaching tool of anything. I wouldn't use it even as a linear phase equalizer. But that's just me. If you really want to teach your students how frequency distribution across the spectrum works and to understand about harmonic balance, then use a good quality spectrum analyzer. Mind you that those hardware units commonly known as swept spectrum analyzers, which are best suited for ultra-high frequencies and above, are expensive tools and don't have phase information or sufficient speed to do good transient analysis. Thus, any quality software FFT analyzer would be good to measure a basic resolution bandwidth of 20kHz.

I hope you understand now why your ban-RTA pic made absolutely no sense.
Old 27th November 2009
  #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david1103 View Post

there is a bit of software called harbal that does this for you on the fly (great for learning). it will always adjust the overall volume back to the same after the eq so you can make a proper judgement. .
I would suggest purchasing Wavelab 6 which includes dozens of very valuable features including what Harbal does. Smart Bypass in Wavelab isn't limited to just EQ. Throw in compression, limiting or whatever and this feature eliminates any volume bias so you can make good A/B comparisons.

The price is greater than Harbal, but considering all the excellent tools in Wavelab for the express purpose of mastering...it is a no brainer.
Old 27th November 2009
  #360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea View Post
I hope you understand now why your ban-RTA pic made absolutely no sense.
The picture could be a bar graph from excell and it would still make sense!

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