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EQ in mastering? Dynamics Plugins
Old 24th November 2009
  #301
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Piedpiper's Avatar
Edward,

although I have respect for a lot of what you're saying, I do not agree that "what is irrational is the notion that the use of RTAs is a major distraction..." (deleted). I think it is clear that many very rational and experienced MEs here find that it is a "major distraction". IMHO, there is nothing irrational about their experience and articulated opinions. What seems to rub folks the wrong way about your contributions is that you insist on your point of view, just as it rubs you the wrong way that those arguing against the use of RTAs are often insisting that their point of view is preeminent. Personally, I get rub the wrong way by insistence in either direction. I am finding lots of food for thought on all fronts, particularly the "listen only" camp, mostly because I've never excluded analytical approaches even though I've always started and ended with listening.
Old 24th November 2009
  #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piedpiper View Post
Edward,

although I have respect for a lot of what you're saying, I do not agree that "what is irrational is the notion that the use of RTAs is a major distraction..." (deleted). I think it is clear that many very rational and experienced MEs here find that it is a "major distraction". IMHO, there is nothing irrational about their experience and articulated opinions. What seems to rub folks the wrong way about your contributions is that you insist on your point of view, just as it rubs you the wrong way that those arguing against the use of RTAs are often insisting that their point of view is preeminent. Personally, I get rub the wrong way by insistence in either direction. I am finding lots of food for thought on all fronts, particularly the "listen only" camp, mostly because I've never excluded analytical approaches even though I've always started and ended with listening.
You are entitled to say that. But think about this, what arguments have the "opposite camp" offered other than "IME" or "IMO". That's not an acceptable answer. Have you really read and understood my posts? Even BK appears not to be willing to challenge my post #180. What I said there was a very simple technique you can take to the bank. Even Undertow who is unforgiving and sticks to a strict code of logic, understood and even corrected BK when he alleged that RTA windows had a resolution too wide or not narrow enough to be helpful in spotting the so called "bad" bass note in his video tutorial. And, this is Bob Katz we are talking about.

I am also tired to explain that listening is paramount and RTA's can't replace that function, but it falls on deaf ears. Does that seem consistent with the so called people "who listen"? As Jay pointed it out very elegantly in another thread, there are several people on this board that usually make good contributions but engage in occasional trolling, thus making it very difficult to ban, suspend or even give them a single infraction. But as a result, threads suffer with lack of clarity and direction which creates confusion and it doesn't help the newbie or the open minded to form an opinion of his own. There are lots of things on these boards that I don't agree with but you don't see me participating in every one of those discussions.

Finally, what research study have concluded that using analysis tools in fact interrupt the listening process? Not one. Why? Without being a neurologist or a brain specialist, these functions take place on different sections of the cerebral cortex. And, unless for an aberration of nature you are doing your hearing in the occipital lobe and not your temporal one, there is no reason why you can't process both visual and audio content at the same time.

Does this help?

Regards,
Old 24th November 2009
  #303
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Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea View Post
You are entitled to say that. But think about this, what arguments have the "opposite camp" offered other than "IME" or "IMO".
That's not an acceptable answer.
Sure it is. That's all anyone does here is present their opinions. So if the chart works for Bob, and the FFT works for you, IMO, IME, I suggest you use them.

As with many things, if they were really better or more efficient you would see them everywhere, but you don't.

Quote:
I am also tired to explain that listening is paramount and RTA's can't replace that function, but it falls on deaf ears.
I love a good metaphor.

Quote:
Does that seem consistent with the so called people "who listen"? As Jay pointed it out very elegantly in another thread, there are several people on this board that usually make good contributions but engage in occasional trolling, thus making it very difficult to ban, suspend or even give them a single infraction. But as a result, threads suffer with lack of clarity and direction which creates confusion and it doesn't help the newbie or the open minded to form an opinion of his own.
You can say that again.


Quote:
Finally, what research study have concluded that using analysis tools in fact interrupt the listening process? Not one.
Studies that say mastering engineers are confused and do worse work with FFT's? Chances are there are none. However, things like the blind having better hearing, or talking on a cellphone makes you a worse driver, I think they are trivial to find.


DC
Old 24th November 2009
  #304
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Piedpiper's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
Sure it is. That's all anyone does here is present their opinions. So if the chart works for Bob, and the FFT works for you, IMO, IME, I suggest you use them.

As with many things, if they were really better or more efficient you would see them everywhere, but you don't.



I love a good metaphor.



You can say that again.




Studies that say mastering engineers are confused and do worse work with FFT's? Chances are there are none. However, things like the blind having better hearing, or talking on a cellphone makes you a worse driver, I think they are trivial to find.


DC
thumbsup

...except that I don't necessarily agree that "if they were really better or more efficient you would see them everywhere,...". There are plenty of examples of "better" not necessarily catching on. And in this case, if it doesn't work for some folks, in that they don't like it, it ain't necessarily "better" for them.

And to Edward: I can't help walking away thinking, lighten up, dude. I think folks take your evangelizing no matter how intelligently, as pushing. And most folks don't like to be pushed, no matter what you're pushing. Even when your pushing not pushing, like I am. heh

Cheers.
Old 24th November 2009
  #305
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Verified Member
Quote:
Finally, what research study have concluded that using analysis tools in fact interrupt the listening process?
There's thousands of years of research in the art of mental focusing. Analysis tools, primarily your own internal dialogue, ranks as the number one distraction from realtime awareness.

If you ever get to ride a street motorbike on track, chances are high that the teachers will insist that there is duct tape on the speedo. The clue is that the mind is in a state where processing intellectual stuff like numbers is detrimental to the meditative/wordless flow needed. Leave those thoughts (and speedo checks, on the road,) for the straights. Have total ninja focus in the bends! Insert similar snowboard, accordion or sex analogy as pleases.

That's probably the main reason to actively discourage the use of "intellectual tools" while doing actual audio processing. For testing, learning, checking out things - sure! For doing it for real, like scraping pegs in 100mph on a track or mastering efficiently? .. Duct tape!

Am an avid user of black-screen hotkey on the computer monitor in front. The metering stuff is off to the side, behind lateral vision. Most visitors does comment that the music sounds so much better when the visuals are off!


That said, this is of course not how it works for everybody. We're all different and should respect that!

Old 24th November 2009
  #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupo View Post
If you ever get to ride a street motorbike on track, chances are high that the teachers will insist that there is duct tape on the speedo.
When you ride a motorbike on a track, you wear a duct taped speedo? Isn't that dangerous? And cold?

Mychal
Old 24th November 2009
  #307
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24-96 Mastering's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peakly View Post
When you ride a motorbike on a track, you wear a duct taped speedo? Isn't that dangerous? And cold?

Mychal
Lol
Old 24th November 2009
  #308
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Verified Member
Hehe... You know, safety first!

+ 100 centimeters
Old 24th November 2009
  #309
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b0ssa's Avatar
 

I wonder how the Duck feels about all this?
Old 24th November 2009
  #310
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I guess a Duck taped to Speedos could be seen as an outboard motor by some and a sex toy by others. Either way, it's a dumb idea.


(I realize it was Duct tape on a Speedo for anyone wanting to correct me for being an idiot)
Old 24th November 2009
  #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b0ssa View Post
I guess a Duck taped to Speedos could be seen as an outboard motor by some and a sex toy by others.
heh
Old 24th November 2009
  #312
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And whats the best vocal Mic under 500$ ? heh
Old 24th November 2009
  #313
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Edward_Vinatea's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
That's all anyone does here is present their opinions.
Agreed. But, when "IME" just means that one hasn't seen them in other studios or are used to entertain clients with the flashing lights, that's not a whole lot of experience on the subject, is it?
Quote:
As with many things, if they were really better or more efficient you would see them everywhere, but you don't.
I beg to differ.
Quote:
I love a good metaphor.
Assuming that you are one of those who never work with RTA's, what do you think of those engineers who say they turn them on only to impress their clients? More specifically, what does it say about their character?
Quote:
Studies that say mastering engineers are confused and do worse work with FFT's? Chances are there are none.
Right. There are no studies on this subject. And, don't expect me to start one either. Thank you.
Old 24th November 2009
  #314
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Verified Member
Well, this thread has just about run its course, thanks everyone.

Thread closed.






.... aaahhhh ****, I'm not a moderator :(
Old 24th November 2009
  #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macc View Post
Thread closed.
Bloody ...ell.



Quote:
You know, safety first!
Oh, so the duct tape is there as some kind of protection.

Mychal
Old 24th November 2009
  #316
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pinwale's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea View Post
Assuming that you are one of those who never work with RTA's, what do you think of those engineers who say they turn them on only to impress their clients? More specifically, what does it say about their character?
Let us not forget, beyond the RTA, there are other forms of sound visualization that could be of equal benefit. For example, I enjoy Keepons

Old 24th November 2009
  #317
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Edward_Vinatea's Avatar
 

Love the idea of having a monitor dedicated to displaying that video, only, I would feed it with the client's audio mix {tempo dependent}. This has the potential of generating repeat business significantly. Thanks so much for your contribution to this thread.
Old 24th November 2009
  #318
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I was wanting to keep it a secret, but that is the main reason I get repeat customers. That and free candy!
Old 24th November 2009
  #319
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dcollins's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea View Post
Agreed. But, when "IME" just means that one hasn't seen them in other studios or are used to entertain clients with the flashing lights, that's not a whole lot of experience on the subject, is it?
In the 20+ years I've been doing audio, I've seen a lot of studios and techniques. I think it's safe to say that the engineers that are consistently doing great work (IME, IMO, PhD, BTU) are not relying on anything but their ears.

Quote:
Assuming that you are one of those who never work with RTA's, what do you think of those engineers who say they turn them on only to impress their clients? More specifically, what does it say about their character?
About character? No idea. Nothing wrong with giving clients something entertaining.
Mastering always has a canine-equine aspect. Me, I like a nice couch, copy of "Recording the Beatles" and treats to eat.

Quote:
Right. There are no studies on this subject. And, don't expect me to start one either. Thank you.
I think, technically, we are in the middle of a such a study right now. So straighten up and give me that gum.


DC
Old 24th November 2009
  #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon502 View Post
I want to learn more about EQ in the mastering stage. I'm practicing mastering but I find it difficult to determine where to boost and cut. Are there any 'sweeping' techniques I can use?

What I usually end up doing with my practice masters is:

1. Waves SSL Buss compressor (2:1 ratio and about 3dB gain reduction, slow attack and AUTO release)
2. Sonnox EQ (see picture)
3. Sonnox Limiter

But I never know what to do in the midrange with the EQ, I always only boost the highs to get clarity, and boost the bass if necessary. I have never cut frequencies before because I'm always afraid I'm cutting something important.



Any help/techniques about the EQ midrange would be highly appreciated!
Thanks!





just avoid overs, use output attenuation!
Old 24th November 2009
  #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
About character? No idea. Nothing wrong with giving clients something entertaining.
Mastering always has a canine-equine aspect. Me, I like a nice couch, copy of "Recording the Beatles" and treats to eat.
Good coffee, a couple of killer early 70's guitars and my view of uptown NYC.

I'd like to get a dog and a pony in here but this ain't California.

We got rules here.
Old 24th November 2009
  #322
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Edward_Vinatea's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterer View Post
Good coffee, a couple of killer early 70's guitars and my view of uptown NYC.

I'd like to get a dog and a pony in here but this ain't California.

We got rules here.
For me, there is nothing like being my own boss. My view is a bit interesting too. These days I am seeing the Skyline of New York {you have to be across the river to do so} I met the guy who used to be your head of DVD audio production and is next to me. I think he is very happy here in Brooklyn too.
Old 24th November 2009
  #323
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Edward_Vinatea's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
In the 20+ years I've been doing audio, I've seen a lot of studios and techniques. I think it's safe to say that the engineers that are consistently doing great work (IME, IMO, PhD, BTU) are not relying on anything but their ears.
The issue was whether they could cause distractions and/or be an audio hindrance. I am telling you, they are not. BTW and if you may want to know, I have 26+ years doing all things audio. I know my stuff.
Quote:
About character? No idea. Nothing wrong with giving clients something entertaining.
Mastering always has a canine-equine aspect. Me, I like a nice couch, copy of "Recording the Beatles" and treats to eat.
So, you didn't take my question seriously. I understand, DC.
Quote:
I think, technically, we are in the middle of a such a study right now. So straighten up and give me that gum.
We are nowhere near.
Old 24th November 2009
  #324
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Verified Member
This thread has reached "classic" status.
Old 24th November 2009
  #325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterer View Post
This thread has reached "classic" status.
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man. "



DC
Old 25th November 2009
  #326
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Cellotron's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterer View Post
This thread has reached "classic" status.
ummmm... "classic" in the same way an AMC Pacer is a "classic" car?



Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 25th November 2009
  #327
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Quote:
We are nowhere near.
QED
Old 25th November 2009
  #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man. "



DC
I love that scene.

Jesus Quintana: You ready to be ****ed, man? I see you rolled your way into the semis. Dios mio, man. Liam and me, we're gonna **** you up.

The Dude: Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Old 25th November 2009
  #329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pinwale View Post
Let us not forget, beyond the RTA, there are other forms of sound visualization that could be of equal benefit. For example, I enjoy Keepons
I want one!

That thing looks like one of those marshmallow peeps:



and don't dis my peeps!
Old 25th November 2009
  #330
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Actually if you follow the latest research you will find the opposite is true as far as aptitude is concerned. Of course no test at birth can tell someone if their child will be a cellist or an architect. That as never my point.

Alistair
Actually I do follow some of the `latest research' as its my previous career and my wife's present one. But as she says, the pubic and the media can pick what you ignore and read what suits your pre-judgement. I know your point now and you know mine.

SB
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