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EQ in mastering? Dynamics Plugins
Old 22nd November 2009
  #271
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Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 

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GREAT topic but...

I still say WHAT EVER WORKS FOR YOU - USE IT!



If you like to master using an RTA or don't it really doesn't matter. It is the result for the clients that count and not how you do it.

Your brain is a wonderful organ. It can do many things at the same time. It can translate what you see or hear or taste or feel or smell into sensations that you can interpret and it can do them all at the same time.

HOWEVER there are somethings that determine which sense predominates and that is something which is built into our brains for self preservation. A cave man looking out at a large field before crossing it hears some twigs cracking behind time and turns around to see a large animal ready to pounce and is able to run away before being eaten.

My point is that anything that impinges on your other senses can take your focus away from the primary activity you are trying to focus on. If your are listening your ears are what are most important and your eyes are really not needed but by looking at something like an RTA they may take your focus away from what you are hearing.

Different strokes for different folks is the way I have always heard it.

Note to Edward V

Most uses for RTAs are in setting up sound systems and checking speaker responses you can read about it here Real Time Analyzer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia FYI!
Old 22nd November 2009
  #272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harmony View Post
i'm not the one who said i learn things to forget them. that's probably a loose quote from coltrane, taken out of context.
Agree with much you say so please forgive the correction. It was Charlie Parker. `Learn the changes (bascially `I got rhythm') and then forget them'. He forgot so well he never played the same solo twice - have a listen (I am sure you may have already) to his Dial Sessions.

SB
Old 22nd November 2009
  #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by masteringhouse View Post
Likewise nobody cares what an RTA looks like when listening to a CD.
"I can't believe how good that mix looks!™"

"RTA: Like stilts for your ears!™"


DC
Old 22nd November 2009
  #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea View Post
You know what we are talking about, so please stop acting out your usual passive-aggressive antics with me.
Funny that you should focus on that part of the sentence. That says more a bout you than me.

Quote:
I will agree with you to the extent that the word "talent" can be a very 'unspecific' and vague word to describe the possession of a special/rare commodity, or how one is internally and intuitively hard wired. I have even used the same word "talent" to make a similar point in a different thread almost a year ago.
So why on earth are you arguing? Very strange.

Quote:
If you wonder why you find yourself all alone
I'm not. I was agreeing with someone else in this very thread.

Quote:
Having said all that, I agree that "skill" is a more fitting term and since mastering doesn't require "talent" "or an inborn skill", it can be obtained through experience, education and/or knowledge. One point I could argue a bit is that mixing is a combination of both. Or even mastering, why not?
That is what I have been saying all along. You seem to be interested in disagreeing. Not me.

Quote:
Anyway, please find more useful things to do with your time than to argue with me every time.
Due to reasons explained in another post in another thread I have plenty of time. More time than I know what to do with. Hence my many posts here at the moment.

The more interesting thing from a psychological point of view is why you think I am arguing with you every time. If I disagree with something, whomever posted it, I will give my own point of view. The second interesting point is that you are the one disagreeing. Interesting.

Alistair
Old 22nd November 2009
  #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caput View Post
I agree, almost, but this is often overstated. Coltrane and Coleman spent many hours together for years discussing theory - Coleman is a superb example (and I have said this before) of a theorist (harmomelodics) who said developing it helped him to express himself. No contest or contrariety between them.

SB
Please don't get the impression that I'm anti-education or anti-theory as I most definitely am not. However I wouldn't downplay the contributions of musicians like Django Reinhardt or Charlie Christian who from my knowledge had little theoretical background and mostly learned from imitating others "by ear".
Old 22nd November 2009
  #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
"I can't believe how good that mix looks!™"

"RTA: Like stilts for your ears!™"


DC
LOL, your brand of comedy is Groucho Marx to my version of the three stooges.
Old 22nd November 2009
  #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caput View Post
May be I am taking you too literally
Indeed.

Alistair
Old 22nd November 2009
  #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caput View Post
...notions of inborn anything are actually very reactionary and have a long theological/political heritage.
...
Old 22nd November 2009
  #279
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Edward_Vinatea's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
"RTA: Like stilts for your ears!™"
I like that heh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
Note to Edward V
Most uses for RTAs are in setting up sound systems and checking speaker responses you can read about it here Real Time Analyzer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Good point. It says : "In professional audio many systems incorporate an RTA along with a device that also performs equalization." That sounds a lot like that Har-Bal program you and someone else are constantly making fun of on forums, doesn't it? Anyway Thomas, don't assume that every Wikipedia article is written by smart and experienced people. If you want to read about analyzers, FFT's etc, start with this and this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Funny that you should focus on that part of the sentence. That says more a bout you than me.

Quote:
That is what I have been saying all along. You seem to be interested in disagreeing. Not me.
Right Undertow: skill=inborn skill= inborn ability, thus, talent=experience=expertise. Why were we arguing in the first place? heh
Quote:
Due to reasons explained in another post in another thread I have plenty of time. More time than I know what to do with. Hence my many posts here at the moment.
Quote:
The more interesting thing from a psychological point of view is why you think I am arguing with you every time. If I disagree with something, whomever posted it, I will give my own point of view. The second interesting point is that you are the one disagreeing. Interesting.
Not really interesting, Yawn
-----------------------------------------------------------
More please, more amusement. How about it DC? Isn't this thread terrific?heh
Old 22nd November 2009
  #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea View Post
More please, more amusement. How about it DC? Isn't this thread terrific?heh
I got more for my entertainment dollar from Bob's normalization thread, but that's just me.

What kind of monitors do you master on?


DC
Old 22nd November 2009
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
I got more for my entertainment dollar from Bob's normalization thread, but that's just me.

What kind of monitors do you master on?


DC
I use cheap monitors, but I really dig what I hear with them.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #282
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Piedpiper's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by masteringhouse View Post
Ear training in music is far more important for the improviser than theory though an analysis after the fact can be helpful.
...and inform new avenues for ear training.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #283
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Part Two of the Challenge:

Turn Off your power amps, and thereby any loudspeakers.
Turn On all your meters, analyzers, & other visual aids.
Master a song using only visuals.
Turn the power amps back on and listen to the result.

Maybe you'll get lucky!

Cheers - JT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
So I would like to issue you guys a challenge.

On your your next mastering project, check your levels at the beginning of the session with a simple meter. Then do the rest of the session without using any analyzers.

Just try it.

I think you'll find that relying on your ears (and monitors) alone to guide you, will build a level of confidence, and a sense connection with the music (and your gear), that you just don't get to by relying all the visual "helpers".

Best Regards - JT
Old 23rd November 2009
  #284
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minister's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
GREAT topic...
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
"I can't believe how good that mix looks!™"

DC
Whatchu talkin' 'bout Willis?
Old 23rd November 2009
  #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minister View Post
Whatchu talkin' 'bout Willis?
The power of an idea.


DC
Old 23rd November 2009
  #286
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I thought this thread was about EQ in Mastering.... WTF has improvosation got to do with that?

I will say this though... THINK at a speed of 32 notes per bar.. NAME each one as you go.. good luck thumbsup

ALL great musicians (including myself ) think about whatever they need to think about whilst constructing an 'improvisation', expressing a number of things (physical, mental) in the process whilst piecing together a performance based on how they feel at the time, how coordinated they are and how mentally tuned-in they might be as well. It's a LIVING thing if it is based on the person performing and not some BS by wrote "I have a degree" crap... Oh, I think I'll play a diminished Wholetone scale followed by a superlocrian mode over that last passage whilst eating a Gormet Pizza...dfegad and finish up with a double twisted pike whilst my gtr is doing a somersault 20 feet above me between chords.

This thread was interesting when it was about mastering.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
Part Two of the Challenge:

Turn Off your power amps, and thereby any loudspeakers.
Turn On all your meters, analyzers, & other visual aids.
Master a song using only visuals.
Turn the power amps back on and listen to the result.

Maybe you'll get lucky!

Cheers - JT
I like your challenges, nice way to stick it to'em.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #288
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b0ssa's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
Part Two of the Challenge:

Turn Off your power amps, and thereby any loudspeakers.
Turn On all your meters, analyzers, & other visual aids.
Master a song using only visuals.
Turn the power amps back on and listen to the result.

Maybe you'll get lucky!

Cheers - JT
At last! Someone with a real sense of humour...

thumbsup
Old 23rd November 2009
  #289
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b0ssa's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by harmony View Post
"diminished Wholetone scale"? care to describe that?

you need to get some education, young man.

you don't have to go to college, but you do need an education. no need to be so defensive. you'll have a hard time learning that way.

also, its gourmet, not "Gormet".
Yes a simple typo thanks for pointing it out.

Seeing as both scales are pretty much the same thing and I've been playing 'both' for at least 30 years I guess I know more than you "old man" ;P

try this simple description for starters: Diminished Whole Tone Series

-------- EDIT ----------------
Here's a link to another description:

Sax on the Web Forum - View Single Post - Half-Diminished Scales and Dim. Whole Tone Scales?

"First of all: there are two half diminished scales in common use. If you like a more consonant (diatonic) type of sound like Charlie Parker used then Bm7b5 looks like this B-C-D-E-F-G-A. Its the same scale as G7, think of it like an extension of G7.

If you like a more moderns sound for Bm7b5, like Coltrane then sharp the C: B-C#-D-E-F-G-A. It's the same scale as D minor Major 7th (melodic minor).

The diminished whole tone (E7alt) is a more modern type of sound also. It starts out half-whole diminished until you get to the major third, from there it's whole tones up to the root; E-F-G-G#-Bb-C-D-E. This is the same scale as F melodic minor.

The older style that Parker played was hw diminished. It's a more versatile scale, in my opinion and is more accessible."
Old 23rd November 2009
  #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harmony View Post
ha, ha. way off. diminished scale and whole tone scale are two distinct, different things. they are not "pretty much the same thing". you said you wanted to play a "diminshed whole tone scale" [sic] followed by a "superlocrian mode". but your cite says they are the same thing. what exactly are you trying to convey, other than your confusion.

you should find a better source if you've been doing it wrong for 30 years [according to you]. really. "jazz minor scale"? is that a minor scale that only exists in jazz? i know the term you are trying to find, but i'll let you try to figure it out. that can be your assignment. just kidding, i know you don't want anything like that.

also, your cite does not describe the scale at all as regards where it is actually derived from. it just spews a bunch of incorrect terminology. i was asking to see if you could describe it, all by yourself. apparently not. see if you can figure out what scale you are trying to talk about, and where it exists in the major / minor tonal system.

and i don't know whether you know more than me about something or other. possibly. but definitely not about music.

anyhow, why are you so mad? do you hate school, or your teacher, or something?

oh, and its "improvisation", not improvosation.

i know.
Oh, another typo.. thanks I obviously missed that one too...

BTW, I'm not angry but rather bemoosed (oops another typo) by you're aggreshun (oops) and deeefensive (basketball term) attack on me frankly. (Hmm.. defensive attack? )

I am off to bed so you'll need to hold your breath (please do so) for a few hours for my enlightening lecture on the joys of Diminished Wholetone scale.

fuuck
Old 23rd November 2009
  #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harmony View Post
just to be nice, i'll tell you that all that is a bunch of nonsense. that guy doesn't even know how to spell a scale.

i would respectfully suggest that you find a real [probably accredited] teacher, or a competent text if you want to really understand more advanced harmonic concepts. there is a lot of misinformation in what you have posted. but the real info. is available if you are open to it.

take care.
I doubt you'd know the meaning of the word 'respect' but I'd like to teach it to you. 8)

Thanks for your advice and good luck in your search for human friends.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
Part Two of the Challenge:
Turn Off your power amps, and thereby any loudspeakers.
Turn On all your meters, analyzers, & other visual aids.
Master a song using only visuals.
Turn the power amps back on and listen to the result.
Maybe you'll get lucky!
I am still trying to figure out if this idea is amusing or silly, but I know is one of the two. Maybe it's the equivalent of asking a blind man to drive a car and listen for traffic, or asking an airline pilot to land his Jumbo without visual guidance and at night. Hmm.....I can't make up my mind.

Last edited by Edward_Vinatea; 23rd November 2009 at 01:26 PM.. Reason: It's getting sillier
Old 23rd November 2009
  #293
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Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward_Vinatea View Post
I am still trying to figure out if this idea is amusing or silly, but I know is one of the two. Maybe it's the equivalent of asking a blind man to drive a car and listen for traffic, or asking an airline pilot to land his Jumbo without visual guidance and at night. Hmm.....I can't make up my mind.

ALL OF YOUR SENSES ARE IMPORTANT!

The big picture is DO WHAT YOU THINK IS RIGHT but don't try and proselytize to everyone else who may not agree with you. If you do your mastering standing on your head in the nude makes you do better mastering just do it. Not everyone is created the same and NOT everyone has to do things the same way. What a really silly world this would be if everyone did EVERYTHING THE SAME. I personally think that your ears are more important than your eyes when dealing with music. If you want to try an experiment go to a classical concert given by a large professional orchestra. Try to listen to just the first violins or the percussion or the horns. Your eyes will fool you into thinking that you can zoom in on the instruments with your ears. Now close your eyes and everything goes back into proportion and you hear the orchestra as it should sound. The same thing goes for opera. You are trying to hear the soloist against the orchestra and he or she is not singing in full voice and yet if you use your eyes they can convince your brain that you can hear the soloist perfectly even though if you shut your eyes you will hear that you cannot hear the soloist as plainly as you can with your eyes open. This is your two senses working in tandem to give you a better experience but what you are really hearing and what your eyes are making you think you are hearing are worlds apart.

As to HARBAL...I have a copy in my studio, I use it as a teaching tool to show clients/interns the before and after of frequency response plot of their mastering. It is a very good tool for showing the differences. I have even played around with using HARBAL to do EQ but find that there are some basic problems with it that make it unsuitable for professional mastering.


The two reference you gave me about RTAs in a earlier post were most interesting. Thanks!
Old 23rd November 2009
  #294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
Try to listen to just the first violins or the percussion or the horns. Your eyes will fool you into thinking that you can zoom in on the instruments with your ears. Now close your eyes and everything goes back into proportion and you hear the orchestra as it should sound. The same thing goes for opera. You are trying to hear the soloist against the orchestra and he or she is not singing in full voice and yet if you use your eyes they can convince your brain that you can hear the soloist perfectly even though if you shut your eyes you will hear that you cannot hear the soloist as plainly as you can with your eyes open. This is your two senses working in tandem to give you a better experience but what you are really hearing and what your eyes are making you think you are hearing are worlds apart.
Err, thanks?

Quote:
As to HARBAL...I have a copy in my studio, I use it as a teaching tool to show clients/interns the before and after of frequency response plot of their mastering. It is a very good tool for showing the differences. I have even played around with using HARBAL to do EQ but find that there are some basic problems with it that make it unsuitable for professional mastering.
Well, that's a surprise. What display mode do you find it more effective to plot frequencies with and at what resolution does har-bal default to, or are there select options to change that?

Quote:
but don't try and proselytize to everyone else who may not agree with you
BTW, you need to read posts from the beginning before making these kinds of comments. I don't appreciate it .
Old 23rd November 2009
  #295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caput View Post
DNA is not destiny.
It is a part of one's destiny.

Mychal
Old 23rd November 2009
  #296
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Here's another "challenge" similar to Jerry's but a little more serious (I think).

Run a track of music through an EQ that is broken up into 3 bands, a shelf at 250Hz, parametric covering 250 to 2.5K, and a shelf from 2.5k up (or bands of your choosing). Call the first band "bass", second "mids" and third "treble". At the same time run an RTA.

Start by having someone quiz you by using large cuts/boosts maybe 12 db and name the change (e.g. bass boost, mid cut, etc.) using no RTA, using an RTA, and an RTA with sound off (while the other person does not allow you to see the changes on the EQ of course).

Next gradually decrease the amount of boost or cut and continue the process, see which becomes more accurate as you decrease the amount to 1 or .5 db.

Then continue the process by using more bands starting with an octave and contunue decreasing the bandwidth in specific frequency ranges, e.g. 100Hz and below, an octave at 250Hz ...

Not only will you start to rely less on an RTA (and possibly see why it becomes useless for some types of work) but you will be training yourself to hear named frequency ranges more accurately.
Old 23rd November 2009
  #297
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Busy weekend, no time to reply till now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins View Post
Ban him!

Will you eschew the tuning fork, as well?

DC
Yes, the fork is out of reach.

Walking the highwire without a net, no substitute.

--------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Dempsey View Post
And "that's what it's all about".
Brilliant! (on correlating the Hokey Pokey and Mastering by Ear comments)

Big Texas Howdy to muh man, Jack the Bear.
--------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peakly View Post
Awesome!

What you're describing is how music is played on the highest level too. That is really cool.

Mychal
You should know my friend, I remember hearing you play back in the day, now thaaat was awesome.

more later - JT
Old 23rd November 2009
  #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peakly View Post
It is a part of one's destiny.

Mychal
Of course, trivially so - if you have a serious genetic anomaly you probably have anomaly in developed areas of your life. But not the part of destiny we are talking about here - engineering skill and so on. We are born much more half-wired than hard-wired and opportunities and choices and experience make the difference. This is why I agree so much with Lucey's approach on craft - we craft ourselves too. But certainly, some things you cannot change.

SB
Old 23rd November 2009
  #299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slutzbuster View Post
so is that your mastering rig in your sig line? wow, that's a lot of equipment. how do you use your e.q. when you do your mastering? do the mackie speakers help you to make all the right choices or do you use different speakers to check your e.q.?
I'm not a mastering engineer and I am here to learn from you guys.

I use the mackies and NS10's for reference after mixing in cans mostly.

For processing only the Powercores, UAD Quad, Duende and Liquid mix are plugged in these days. I also use a few native plugs like Waves CLA, FerricTDS and Old Timer etc.

When and how I do 'my' mastering depends on the project but a mixture of the following plug-ins may get used in my Cubase output channel when 'mastering' ITB:
1: SSL Bus Comp with very mild settings and no Makeup Gain
2: TCE MD3 (Limiter OFF and generally with M-S active)
3: X-EQ or oZone EQ
4: Kjaerhus MPL-1 Pro
5: TCE Brickwall limiter just to stop overs and to dither the output
6: Various stereo metering tools
7: bx Solo
8: SSL Xism

I generally create a PRE MASTER group fader and use that to control input to the Cubase master output channel.

If I only use the SSL Bus Comp on the output then I'll use Wavelab and a bunch of plugins.

But I am here to get my education (as Harmony rightly pointed out) and I wouldn't try to master a serious record as I don't have the required skills, room and speakers.
Old 24th November 2009
  #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caput View Post
Of course, trivially so - if you have a serious genetic anomaly you probably have anomaly in developed areas of your life. But not the part of destiny we are talking about here - engineering skill and so on. We are born much more half-wired than hard-wired and opportunities and choices and experience make the difference. This is why I agree so much with Lucey's approach on craft - we craft ourselves too. But certainly, some things you cannot change.

SB
Actually if you follow the latest research you will find the opposite is true as far as aptitude is concerned. Of course no test at birth can tell someone if their child will be a cellist or an architect. That as never my point.

Alistair
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