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Ways to send album as a file?
Old 11th July 2009
  #31
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Cellotron's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by glassmaster View Post
DDP is the only format that contains ALL of the metadata and PQ info.
In terms of having the data in a format that is actually ready for sending a data stream to the LBR - then I can agree with this statement.

But in terms of having all Red Book supported metadata and PQ info (track indexes, pause indexes, sub-indexes, settable pre-gap lengths, UPC/MCN, ISRC, CD Text) be in a format that can be displayed and burned to a Red Book spec compliant Orange Book CD-R - then I disagree - as cue/wav or cue/bin does in fact allow you to contain all these elements.

Regardless - I definitely agree that sending a DDP along with a player/burner such as the Sonic or Sonoris offerings does in fact offer a much more seamless and fool proof method of sending references or offering "remote master burning" than cue+wav/bin does.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 11th July 2009
  #32
Mastering
 

Thanks for that info, David. I think it is prudent to switch over to that workflow. All right, can you please tell us what's the bottom dollar for Sonic SecureDDP and for Sonoris's player?

--------


btw, to prevent any file transfer problems we have found that it is prudent to zip the DDP fileset when sending over the internet. (Does not apply to secureDDP files, which are securely encrypted).[/QUOTE]

For us to zip is no big deal, generally we zip any large images or files. But getting the client to zip his uploads, that's like pulling teeth!

BK
Old 11th July 2009
  #33
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cellotron View Post
In terms of having the data in a format that is actually ready for sending a data stream to the LBR - then I can agree with this statement.

But in terms of having all Red Book supported metadata and PQ info (track indexes, pause indexes, sub-indexes, settable pre-gap lengths, UPC/MCN, ISRC, CD Text) be in a format that can be displayed and burned to a Red Book spec compliant Orange Book CD-R - then I disagree - as cue/wav or cue/bin does in fact allow you to contain all these elements.

Regardless - I definitely agree that sending a DDP along with a player/burner such as the Sonic or Sonoris offerings does in fact offer a much more seamless and fool proof method of sending references or offering "remote master burning" than cue+wav/bin does.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Thanks, Steve, for pointing that out about cue/bin, since I've been a big supporter of that format for client references.

Then, along come Sonic and Sonoris :-). There's also something to be said about the client proofing your DDP master directly (or an exact copy) so to speak. I just have to get used to the idea of giving the client the ability to do something which we've felt privileged to do ourselves for so long. But anyway, chances are very good they're primarily going to use the Sonic or Sonoris to cut a CD and then play it on their favorite hi-fi :-).
Old 11th July 2009
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob katz View Post
Thanks for that info, David. I think it is prudent to switch over to that workflow. All right, can you please tell us what's the bottom dollar for Sonic SecureDDP and for Sonoris's player?
The Sonoris DDP Player OEM is 299 Euros - which currently works out to $416.

There is a downloadable demo on their site - Download Demo Software - Sonoris Audio Engineering

Their DDP Creator software is excellent as well.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 11th July 2009
  #35
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cellotron View Post
The Sonoris DDP Player OEM is 299 Euros - which currently works out to $416.

There is a downloadable demo on their site - Download Demo Software - Sonoris Audio Engineering

Their DDP Creator software is excellent as well.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
When I get some spare cash I'll look into it. Thanks. And the Sonic player? Big bucks, I imagine.
Old 12th August 2009
  #36
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PieterS's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cellotron View Post
The Sonoris DDP Player OEM is 299 Euros
Both the Sonoris DDP Player (OEM) and DDP Creator will be available on the Mac platform this year at no additional cost for the current PC owners.

best regards,

Pieter Stenekes
Old 12th August 2009
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PieterS View Post
Both the Sonoris DDP Player (OEM) and DDP Creator will be available on the Mac platform this year at no additional cost for the current PC owners.

best regards,

Pieter Stenekes
Pieter -
Excellent news! Thanks again for all your excellent work in this - and looking forward to the update.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 12th August 2009
  #38
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cellotron View Post
Pieter -
Excellent news! Thanks again for all your excellent work in this - and looking forward to the update.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

That is excellent news. Pieter, as soon as the product is available cross platform, please put a notice here. And you have one customer already waiting: so write me at bobkatz[at sign]digido.com.

So to be correct, the player will allow us to distribute DDP images and our clients can play and cut CD references from it on either the Mac or the PC?

Best wishes,


Bob
Old 12th August 2009
  #39
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PieterS's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob katz View Post
So to be correct, the player will allow us to distribute DDP images and our clients can play and cut CD references from it on either the Mac or the PC?
Yes, this is already the case for the PC platform and will be available for Mac later this year. You get a fully branded player for your studio with logo, web url, etc. that can be distributed freely to your customers without registration or dongles. They can play DDP images and burn them to audio CD.
Old 12th August 2009
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob katz View Post
That is excellent news. Pieter, as soon as the product is available cross platform, please put a notice here. And you have one customer already waiting: so write me at bobkatz[at sign]digido.com.

So to be correct, the player will allow us to distribute DDP images and our clients can play and cut CD references from it on either the Mac or the PC?

Best wishes,


Bob
The OEM license allows you to distribute a version of the Player software that is custom branded with your logo and contact info. You can then send the client a DDP or cue image and they can then load it in the Player - and either audition it directly in the player (including a handy "Play Transition" button) or burn a Red Book spec compliant CD-R master with it.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 12th August 2009
  #41
Gear Head
 
OnlineMastering's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PieterS View Post
Both the Sonoris DDP Player (OEM) and DDP Creator will be available on the Mac platform this year at no additional cost for the current PC owners.

best regards,

Pieter Stenekes
Great news! Looking forward to it!

You can deliver the DDP to the client, he can burn his reference cd, approve it and then forward the same DDP to the plant...
Old 13th August 2009
  #42
Mastering
 

QC and the DDP "reference"

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnlineMastering View Post
Great news! Looking forward to it!

You can deliver the DDP to the client, he can burn his reference cd, approve it and then forward the same DDP to the plant...
Oh, I don't know if that's such a good idea. That puts the cart before the horse, the horse being the QC process which would now be absent. Here at Digital Domain, my trained assistant performs what we call "QC" or "Quality Control". She auditions masters carefully listening with headphones, checks for noises, checks again with me prior to cleaning the noises (in case they were already approved or intentional), and follows a careful protocol that ensures the data integrity of the project will be maintained from the creation of the DDP to its arrival at the plant. This includes first making an MD5 checksum of the fileset and then doing the careful QC of the master or a CDR copy of the master. QC people are valuable assets. They often find things which even we mastering engineers may have missed.

BUT BEFORE THE MASTER AND BEFORE THE QC, FIRST there has to be a reference, the first version of the mastering that we send to the client for their initial approval and criticism. If this reference is sent in a DDP format, then they have a master-quality format which they could potentially confuse with a master, and/or send to a plant without good quality control. How many clients have the patience (and training) to sit with a pair of headphones, listen for all the noises that might have to be removed, listen for distortions, electrical noises, and then send the proper parts on to the plant? Truthfully, very few, it's not their job, it's not their orientation. That's our job. So if the reference is approved entirely by the client (as many references are) we have a catch-22, the master will not have been QC'ed. We cannot QC twice, it's too much work, generally we QC the parts that are labelled as "master". We QC a master.

Remember, the idea of sending the DDP to the client was to send him a reference via FTP which he can cut to CD, to approve and to see if the mastering needs any changes, then we cut the master with all the associated quality control that the client expects from us. I'm beginning to see some issues with this idea of sending a DDP reference to a client. If we can make it clear to them that we now have to QC the master before it goes to the plant, even if there are no changes to what they heard, then all will be well. We will have stored here the identical DDP, with an MD5 checksum and all that remains is for us to do the official QC. If we then hear a problem, then we go through a correction or cleanup process, usually over here at no additionl cost to the client, we absorb any extra time it takes to clean up any small noises that we deem should have been fixed prior to making the master.

Something was mentioned in the Presonus discussion about sending another form of image file that the client's DDP player could play. I'm interested in that option so we don't send a real DDP to the client. It would be a way of distinguishing the reference from the master and make sure the proper listening and QC protocols will happen in sequence. Though if the "player" they get is labelled DDP, it will be hard not to confuse them.

Of course I'm not saying that clients should not approve masters, they do (at least copies of the master), but I am saying that this idea of the DDP going to the client potentially subverts that very important part of the mastering process: the QC step. Because we cannot take the time to QC a ref and then QC a master, that's just not feasible.

Let's have a discussion on this idea, see how we can tweak this new DDP reference workflow and ensure that quality product reaches the shelves (such as they are, given that brick and mortar record stores have become largely a thing of the past).
Old 13th August 2009
  #43
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PieterS's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob katz View Post
If this reference is sent in a DDP format, then they have a master-quality format which they could potentially confuse with a master, and/or send to a plant without good quality control.
I see no difference with a reference CD / master CD in this context. They can send a ref. CD to a plant too without QC, so why is DDP different?

DDP just makes sure the client gets a good representation of the reference. If we should have another format for references than THAT would be confusing!

Communication is the key here, letting the client know that a reference is just that and NOT the master.

Pieter Stenekes
Old 13th August 2009
  #44
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PieterS View Post
I see no difference with a reference CD / master CD in this context. They can send a ref. CD to a plant too without QC, so why is DDP different?

DDP just makes sure the client gets a good representation of the reference. If we should have another format for references than THAT would be confusing!

Communication is the key here, letting the client know that a reference is just that and NOT the master.

Pieter Stenekes
Pieter, let's hope that that turns out to be the practical case. In our case we bundle in the cost of the QC along with the making of the official master. So I think we will need to call it "Master and QC" from now on.

But it's not quite the same case as before, since a reference CD-A does not come with an error check (we do not provide it) and the clients have already had it drilled in them that a reference CD without an error check is not to be sent to the plant. But if they get a DDP, that's an official "master format". There's a little rocky road ahead. I welcome the Sonoris DDP player, but remember that communication is always rocky and that's why we have had these safeguards in place to protect the client and the product. The Sonoris player erodes those safeguards. People do not read instructions well, remember that. So with our clients we have to do the QC. We ask them to check all the track cues. Do they do that? Maybe, maybe not. We check all the track cues during the QC process to uncover any possible mistakes that may have been made (rare as they are). If we deliver them a DDP with a defective track cue and they send it on to the plant, who is liable for the mistake?

BK
Old 13th August 2009
  #45
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nice to reading this, it's nice to read post from all good mastering engineers from over the worlda bit off-topic bob your second edition of your book it's so great
and nice too that will come sonoris version for mac users of like me
Old 13th August 2009
  #46
Lives for gear
When it comes to getting the DDP onto disc are you all creating an ISO or bin/cue file WITH the DDP files inside it? I can't seem to find a way to burn those to disc by themselves, so I'm assuming this is the best way. As I understand it DDP files are sensitive to being burnt to disc so if I can get them error free that would be good.

I've got sequoia and it is able to burn directly to disc, I'm guessing that's just creating a redbook CD, not burning the DDP to disc.
Old 13th August 2009
  #47
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PieterS View Post

Communication is the key here, letting the client know that a reference is just that and NOT the master.

Pieter Stenekes
Agree 100%. And thanks to Pieter for developing a very good DDP Player application.
Old 14th August 2009
  #48
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ImmortalGropher View Post
When it comes to getting the DDP onto disc are you all creating an ISO or bin/cue file WITH the DDP files inside it? I can't seem to find a way to burn those to disc by themselves, so I'm assuming this is the best way. As I understand it DDP files are sensitive to being burnt to disc so if I can get them error free that would be good.

I've got sequoia and it is able to burn directly to disc, I'm guessing that's just creating a redbook CD, not burning the DDP to disc.
Yes, once you create the DDP fileset you put it on the root level of an optical disc and send it to the plant with VERY CAREFUL INSTRUCTIONS (to prevent them from making a CD ROM instead!!!!).... or you zip the fileset and upload it to the plant. As for the error free part, as soon as you create the fileset, do an MD5 on it (IRNIS on the NET - home of Advanced CheckSum Verifier - the MD5SUM, MD5 and SFV utility for Windows.). Then, as long as the end user runs a test on the MD5, all subsequent copies can be verified as the same as the original.

You still have to play back and QC the original DDP file and if you hear no glitches it was good. There's no method of verification unless your source is a 16 bit file that you have confidence in then you could do a verification. But we ALWAYS listen regardless. Never turn your back on computers :-).

Sequoia can create (and load back) DDPs. The loadback menu is a bit obscure but the cutting is just to press the "DDP" button in the make CD dialogue, then it makes the fileset. For the loadback I believe you have to launch the DDPExport.exe file in the Sequoia folder. Strange but true :-)

A good way to burn a data DVD-R or CD-R dependably is with the shareware application imageburn.exe, which can cut discs as well as read and write image files. It's an amazingly powerful app for shareware. I urge you to make a donation if you use it.
Old 14th August 2009
  #49
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Table Of Tone's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob katz View Post
Pieter, let's hope that that turns out to be the practical case. In our case we bundle in the cost of the QC along with the making of the official master. So I think we will need to call it "Master and QC" from now on.

But it's not quite the same case as before, since a reference CD-A does not come with an error check (we do not provide it) and the clients have already had it drilled in them that a reference CD without an error check is not to be sent to the plant. But if they get a DDP, that's an official "master format". There's a little rocky road ahead. I welcome the Sonoris DDP player, but remember that communication is always rocky and that's why we have had these safeguards in place to protect the client and the product. The Sonoris player erodes those safeguards. People do not read instructions well, remember that. So with our clients we have to do the QC. We ask them to check all the track cues. Do they do that? Maybe, maybe not. We check all the track cues during the QC process to uncover any possible mistakes that may have been made (rare as they are). If we deliver them a DDP with a defective track cue and they send it on to the plant, who is liable for the mistake?

BK
I see exactly where you are coming from on this!

Many things can still go wrong at the CD burning stage, after the DDP.

The actual CD master absolutely has to be QC checked!

Leaving that open to the client could be a potential issue, even if they have been told not to try and make their own CD master from the DDP's.

As we all know, people do exactly the opposite of what they are told to do (that'll be human nature) and I simply wouldn't want my name on a master unless I had the PMCD properly checked for QC.
Old 15th August 2009
  #50
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OnlineMastering's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob katz View Post
Yes, once you create the DDP fileset you put it on the root level of an optical disc and send it to the plant with VERY CAREFUL INSTRUCTIONS (to prevent them from making a CD ROM instead!!!!).... or you zip the fileset and upload it to the plant.
To avoid that the plant is making lots of CD-ROM copies of the DDP fileset, it´s smart to burn it on a DVD-ROM and ship it them. No such problem with uploads though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Table Of Tone View Post
I see exactly where you are coming from on this!

Many things can still go wrong at the CD burning stage, after the DDP.

The actual CD master absolutely has to be QC checked!

Leaving that open to the client could be a potential issue, even if they have been told not to try and make their own CD master from the DDP's.

As we all know, people do exactly the opposite of what they are told to do (that'll be human nature) and I simply wouldn't want my name on a master unless I had the PMCD properly checked for QC.
The actual CD-master must of course be QC-checked! It´s not recommende that the client burns the master-cd and gives that to the plant! (something will probably be missing then...ISRC, CD-Text etc...) But I see no big issues using DDP as reference. Just name it DDP-reference. With Sonoris we can soon offer a cross-platform solution that the clients can download from our site for free. Probably less confusing than imgburn/Toast for reference and then finally DDP for delivery.

Just have to write with big, red letters: Don´t use your home-burned cd´s for replication!
Old 15th August 2009
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnlineMastering View Post
To avoid that the plant is making lots of CD-ROM copies of the DDP fileset, it´s smart to burn it on a DVD-ROM and ship it them. No such problem with uploads though.



The actual CD-master must of course be QC-checked! It´s not recommende that the client burns the master-cd and gives that to the plant! (something will probably be missing then...ISRC, CD-Text etc...) But I see no big issues using DDP as reference. Just name it DDP-reference. With Sonoris we can soon offer a cross-platform solution that the clients can download from our site for free. Probably less confusing than imgburn/Toast for reference and then finally DDP for delivery.

Just have to write with big, red letters: Don´t use your home-burned cd´s for replication!
I was just voicing my concerns with regards to putting DDP players in the hands of the clients and public.

I myself would indeed be interested in a mac version of the Sonoris DDP.

I can actually see the possibility of DDP image file sets being the album release format of the future!
With upload and download getting faster all the time, the record buying public could simply download a DDP and artwork package.

There are more and more DDP players coming available with Sonic DDP, Audiofile eng's Backline or Wave Editor and Sonoris.

The upside is that it could get people away from MP3's and it could also put the album format back on the map, something that has been missing in recent years with people just buying and downloading single tracks.

The down side could involve copyright issues, not to mention that more people will be trying to self master which will bring the sound quality of most albums, back down (or worse) than the MP3's people are listening to at the moment.

Double edged sword!
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