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Audio @ 1 bit 5.6 MHz on Blue Ray could save the day... Recorders, Players & Tape Machines
Old 1st September 2008
  #1
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Audio @ 1 bit 5.6 MHz on Blue Ray could save the day...

I would be very interested to hear audio as DSD or WSD at 1 bit 5.6 MHz on a Blue Ray player. It seems that this might be possible with Blue Ray players and discs especially since DSD is being used by Sony already. It's off the radar but it shouldn't be. When people hear the sound of 1 bit 5.6 MHz audio they will be blown away, I know I was. If this was deployed and marketed properly and new recordings where recorded for best fidelity and not loudness I think this could actually save the music industry. I know that is a tall order but at the very least I think a lot of people would be interested in the very high audio quality possible with this format; thus there would be a market for it. I think it could be the new thing we've been waiting for to replace the CD.

Here are some articles and past threads.

Analog Devices: Korg Delivers Pro Audio Studio-Quality Recorders with Blackfin Processors :: Blackfin Processors :: Embedded Processing and DSP

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remot...-recorder.html

korg.com
Old 1st September 2008
  #2
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Someone needs to do a digital audio 101 course and understand the concept of band limiting before taking graphs like that seriously.

Cheers

James.

PS - going to The Digital Myth might help to start with.
Old 1st September 2008
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesp View Post
Someone needs to do a digital audio 101 course and understand the concept of band limiting before taking graphs like that seriously.

Cheers

James.

PS - going to The Digital Myth might help to start with.
Thank you. Gee, it won't record above Nyquist? What a shock. 1-bit is better because of the ultrasonics, right? Because we all know how important that is compared to 20 to 20k...

OK, sarcasm aside, sound quality alone can't "save the industry." The preference for the convenience and quantity of MP3s certainly proves that. Also, DSD is not free lunch. There are plenty of drawbacks to go with the advantages, but I don't really feel like doing a big a DSD vs. PCM post at the moment.

All that aside, it certainly is better than CD, and if blu-ray gives us options to release high quality audio to the masses (and for me to buy it!), then I'm all for it.
Old 1st September 2008
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LOL I figured I'd get some hate from the establishment. For me DSD/WSD @ 1 bit 5.6 MHz sounds so much better than PCM it's scary. That's really the bottom line. If you're a mastering engineer then hopefully you can hear the difference between the two. Don't underestimate what putting sound quality first could do for the industry...

Cheers
Old 1st September 2008
  #5
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As DSD/SACD isn't part of the Blu-ray specification, the chances are pretty much zero. Of course, that doesn't stop Blu-ray players from being able to play SACDs though, as is/was the case with the earlier incarnations of the PS3. When even Sony drops support for their own format I guess it means that the future of DSD/SACD isn't that great.

Well, at least we'll get lossless compression on Blu-ray, as well as straight up PCM up to 24/192 (so in a way it can replace DVD-Audio). The really good news is that there's finally enough space/bandwidth to provide a high quality soundtrack to the movie, not the heavily compressed Dolby Digital tracks we've been getting on DVD. What you're served in the cinema is far behind when it comes to technical specifications (but they usually have the upper hand when it comes to pure wattage!).
Old 1st September 2008
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcgood View Post
LOL I figured I'd get some hate from the establishment. For me DSD/WSD @ 1 bit 5.6 MHz sounds so much better than PCM it's scary. That's really the bottom line. If you're a mastering engineer then hopefully you can hear the difference between the two. Don't underestimate what putting sound quality first could do for the industry...

Cheers
agreed - but those graphs you printed are wrong wrong wrong.
Old 1st September 2008
  #7
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OK, no more graphs. Can we talk about making this happen now?
Old 1st September 2008
  #8
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Originally Posted by bcgood View Post
Don't underestimate what putting sound quality first could do for the industry...
I think we would need to start by spreading the word, doing some education of the masses, and figure a way to make it "cool" before we'd be able to get enough momentum to make it work; but I'm certainly all for it.
Old 1st September 2008
  #9
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Originally Posted by jayfrigo View Post
I think we would need to start by spreading the word, doing some education of the masses, and figure a way to make it "cool" before we'd be able to get enough momentum to make it work; but I'm certainly all for it.
Yep, I agree 100% Make it cool like CD's where the new cool thing to have in the early 80's. The marketing departments would be responsible for that. Look at iTunes and iPods. Tell me that Apple doesn't know how to market? Now do the same for Blue Ray DSD/WSD. Make Dr. Yoshio Yamasaki proud!

I remember buying my first nice stereo system when I was a senior in high school. I had some Bose, (I know, I know...) speakers and a nice 200 watt amp. I used to invite my friends over to check out the sound and they would be blown away. They proceeded to save their money and buy nice systems. We could replicate that wow experience with Blue Ray @ 1 bit 5.6 MHz DSD/WSD I have no doubt. It would sell and there would be a new market. They could package it with two discs. One for iTunes with standard CD Wave files @ 16/44 PCM and then the Blue Ray Disc.
Old 2nd September 2008
  #10
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blaaaaarrrrrg.

how about linear pcm @ 24 bit on blu-ray disc? it can even be 96k, if it must! (for those of you that hear above 20k!)

pcm is already supported, blu-ray audio-only discs have already been made.

1-bit is dead as a consumer medium. face it.
not to mention, it is inferior to pcm, and a load of snake oil. (oops, couldn't help it!)
Old 2nd September 2008
  #11
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Originally Posted by hummer View Post
blaaaaarrrrrg.

how about linear pcm @ 24 bit on blu-ray disc? it can even be 96k, if it must! (for those of you that hear above 20k!)

pcm is already supported, blu-ray audio-only discs have already been made.

1-bit is dead as a consumer medium. face it.
not to mention, it is inferior to pcm, and a load of snake oil. (oops, couldn't help it!)
Old 2nd September 2008
  #12
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Théoden (Saruman's voice): "PCM is mine!"



Gandalf: "Be gone!"



Théoden: "1bit 5.6 Mhz is pure sonic bliss Gandalf!"



Gandalf: "Breathe the free air again, my friend."

Old 2nd September 2008
  #13
The biggest f-up about anything DSD is that you actually have to depend on Sony. The first generation PS3 had SACD support built in. Then it disappeared with the newer units.

It wasn't like it was too expensive to implement or engineer, it was already in there. Someone at Sony actually had to say "hey, we should take SACD support out of the PS3 spec" and had to make not so minor changes to the operating system to remove all SACD support, along with the optical disc change.

I can see the public not supporting SACD, even excuse music professionals begrudging it, but for the very company that was trying to introduce a new high resolution format, to not even support it internally... in-f'ing-credible.
Old 2nd September 2008
  #14
Gear Maniac
 

Getting through

DSD on Blu-ray is a no go, period. The Blu-ray format was specified a long time ago and while we've seen revisions that add some functionality, adding a niche audio format that would be incompatible with every player out there is simply not going to happen.

bcgood, I have nothing against DSD, but why the fixation on Blu-ray? There already is a format for DSD delivery: SACD. Unless you specifically want more storage space = longer playing times and thus are attracted by the shorter wavelength of the laser for Blu-ray? And as for WSD, well seeing how SACD wasn't that a big of a hit (understatement) no one has any incentive to spend the huge amount of money needed to push a new format into the market.

If you like DSD, back up SACD. If there's enough market interest, compatibility with new players (such as Blu-ray players) will remain. So far, the outlook is not so good.

Electronic distribution of compressed files (for the convenience) coupled with a high resolution copy protected physical format (like SACD) would bring us the best of both worlds, so I for one would be glad to see it happen.
Old 2nd September 2008
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcgood View Post
Make it cool like CD's where the new cool thing to have in the early 80's.
Most people could hear the difference between vinyl and CD - especially the lack of surface noise and the convenience. Very few people are going to notice the difference between an identically mastered CD and a DSD disc. CD sound quality is simply good enough for the vast majority of music listeners.

You could possibly have marketed this in the 70's or early 80's when hifi was a widespread interest. Nowadays hifi is a minority interest whose participants are more often interested in recreating the past rather than moving forward.

Cheers

James.
Old 2nd September 2008
  #16
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the biggest problem with dsd is sony - steve jobs asked for the technology years
ago as a compliment to mp3's - every mac was to support dsd, and play sacds but sony was arrogant
and would not allow it - that alone would have created an enormous market for the dsd - that and giving
the technology to the auto industry - perhaps both of those
things could still be done



be well


- jack
Old 2nd September 2008
  #17
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It's amazing all the corporate road blocks that come up keeping a new, good technology from having a chance. From what I understand there is quite a bit of controversy whether or not Sony properly obtained the patent from Dr. Yoshio Yamasaki.

As far as Blue Ray goes it doesn't have to be the delivery format but it seemed obvious because eventually it will be the new DVD standard. Also because it can hold so much I thought it would be a great chance for a hi-fi experience. Maybe online delivery would be the way to go. To bad Sony and Steve Jobs couldn't have worked something out, that would have been awesome. Maybe he should try again, I do all of my in home listening to music on iTunes through my large external Seagate drive which holds my vast library of 16/44 wave files.

I'm learning a lot from some of you that have obviously been keeping up with this sort of thing. It seems we need some sort of advocacy group of concerned people who love the very best sound possible. By the way, SACD can play 1 bit 5.6 MHz DSD files? If so then that's great news!
Old 2nd September 2008
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcgood View Post
I'm learning a lot from some of you that have obviously been keeping up with this sort of thing. It seems we need some sort of advocacy group of concerned people who love the very best sound possible. By the way, SACD can play 1 bit 5.6 MHz DSD files? If so then that's great news!
Well, SACD is DSD. But, Sony (where formats go to die) screwed the proverbial pootch on SACD and it's all but dead now. There is also the reality that the next format needs to be downloadable and happy on portables. The nature of DSD makes it impossible to get meaningful data compression to work on it, so I don't know what that will end up being. Lower rate DSD? Some swanky new PCM codec? Whatever the BIG NEW THING ends up being, it's either going to be internet-friendly or die in the marketplace.
Old 2nd September 2008
  #19
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So bandwidth is trumping quality on the internet, nothing new there, (Which is why I was hoping the large capacity of Blue Ray would be a good choice for storage.) Hard drives and non volatile storage is getting bigger and cheaper every day. If a new format was delivered that made it much harder for people to rip and compress to host for free on the internet this would be a good thing for the music industry. This is possible, it could even be easy. It just seems like there are a lot of artificial man made barriers. I think if anyone could make something like this happen in the future it would be someone like Steve. Sure the public is used to a free for all wild west sort of thing right now and wouldn't like the limitations. Eventually they would get used to the high quality and actually paying for music again. The music industry needs to get together in some sort of consortium UN style.
Old 3rd September 2008
  #20
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Music was just plain ballsier back when Chuck Berry was recording demos into crappy old reel-to-reels.

It's not the technology. It's that everyone sucks.
Old 3rd September 2008
  #21
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bcgood -

Physical media is dying, and any unrippable media is going to be DOA in the marketplace. Statistically nobody is going to spend money on a format that they can't transfer to their portable and buy online. What needs to happen is the development of new high-quality audio codecs to deliver better audio online, there is no sense in trying to sell consumers shiny plastic discs that will be less desirable than 8-track tapes in a decade.
Old 3rd September 2008
  #22
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Well I for one would love to see an album be available via 1 bit 5.6 MHz DSD on iTunes. It won't be long till we have 50 terabyte iPods which could hold a large number of albums at that resolution. It wouldn't be a big deal to download the album at night. Instant gratification isn't that important to me. People are still buying CD's and DVD's and now their starting to buy Blue Ray. I still don't think a large high fi music distribution format is such a crazy idea. I think you just have to be open to thinking different.

Old 3rd September 2008
  #23
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IMO the audible benefits are debatable. A while ago we did some listening tests using the SACD release of Dark Side Of The Moon, which were very revealing:

- Does SACD better than 16-bit 44.1 ? Yes, no question.
- Does it sound better than 24-bit 44.1 ? Again, yes.
- Does it sound better than 24-bit 48kHz ? Er... maybe ?
- Better than 24/96 ? I honestly couldn't hear a difference.

Now maybe the source material is limiting the validity of this test - Peter Gabriel chose SACD over DVD-A for his remasters, maybe he heard something we didn't, but also I don't know their methodology.

But add to all of this the fact that working with DSD is expensive, and a pain the backside to boot. You can't process it without converting to PCM, for a start, so if you take the hype seriously you need a purely analogue path right up to the final master - that's serious money needed right there. And how are we supposed to do restoration or creative editing ?

And don't even get me started on the whole "DSD is PCM anyway" question...

My conclusion - releasing 24-bit 48kHz on DVD or Blu Ray gives a significant, clearly audible upgrade to CD quality, without significant expense. Major bang for your buck. 24/96 or DSD ? Not so much...

Ian
Old 3rd September 2008
  #24
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24 bit 96Khz is DVD standard. Potentially every DVD player.
nobody except for broadcast and some studios use 48Khz.
Old 3rd September 2008
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reptil View Post
24 bit 96Khz is DVD standard. Potentially every DVD player.
nobody except for broadcast and some studios use 48Khz.
Wrong. 24/96 support is part of the DVD spec, and should be implemented in all players, but the VAST majority of DVDs use AC-3 (Dolby Digital) lossy compression, at 48kHz, 16 bit. DTS offers 24-bit lossy multichannel encoding, but is still a minority. Of course we can all record 24/96 as standard, but not many DVDs even use PCM, although it's more common in music titles. The bandwidth needed causes problems for the video encoding, even more so at 24/96kHz.

Ian
Old 3rd September 2008
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SACD may be on its way out, but DSD is alive and kicking!
I've burned DSD discs on Blu-ray and DVD with no problems. You can play these DVD discs on the PS3 and the Tascam DV-RA1000
Now as for 5.6 or DSD128, that's another story. There are no editors for the format. The only thing that records to this format is the Korg unit.
I have 2 converters, DAD AX24 and the Meitners that can record/play 5.6, but from what? The Korg unit doesn't have digital outs and the popular DSD DAWs only go up to 2.8 or DSD64.
I'm doing a lot of DXD recording/editing/mastering right now. I know it's PCM, but 4 times the content of DSD and indistinguishable from DSD, as far as I'm concerned. I feel this is the way it's going. Unfortunately if you don't have a Pyramix/DAD combo, you will never appreciate the DXD format. I have both the Korg and Tascam units here and have done extensive A/B comparisons.
I applaud Korg/Tascam for bringing DSD to the masses. I get a lot of 2-track mixes from clients with these units. So either way, I'm glad some people are seeing the merits of higher-rez formats. I've been preaching about it for years.

Regards,
Bruce
Old 3rd September 2008
  #27
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Originally Posted by DSD_Mastering View Post
SACD may be on its way out, but DSD is alive and kicking!
I've burned DSD discs on Blu-ray and DVD with no problems. You can play these DVD discs on the PS3 and the Tascam DV-RA1000
Now as for 5.6 or DSD128, that's another story. There are no editors for the format. The only thing that records to this format is the Korg unit.
I have 2 converters, DAD AX24 and the Meitners that can record/play 5.6, but from what? The Korg unit doesn't have digital outs and the popular DSD DAWs only go up to 2.8 or DSD64.
I'm doing a lot of DXD recording/editing/mastering right now. I know it's PCM, but 4 times the content of DSD and indistinguishable from DSD, as far as I'm concerned. I feel this is the way it's going. Unfortunately if you don't have a Pyramix/DAD combo, you will never appreciate the DXD format. I have both the Korg and Tascam units here and have done extensive A/B comparisons.
I applaud Korg/Tascam for bringing DSD to the masses. I get a lot of 2-track mixes from clients with these units. So either way, I'm glad some people are seeing the merits of higher-rez formats. I've been preaching about it for years.

Regards,
Bruce
It's great to hear your perspective on this Bruce as I've been reading your posts, have checked out your website and you obviously know a lot about this stuff. As far as editing goes if you used a bunch of the Korg units with a contraption to press the play and record buttons simultaneously then you could use the Korg unit's like a multi-track tape deck. Then you could record and edit at 1 bit 5.6 MHz DSD. Then you could run the outs from the Korg units to either a summing box or a full fledged console. If you used this method and recorded down to another Korg unit the whole project could stay at 1 bit 5.6 MHz DSD. I think this would sound phenomenal.

Old 3rd September 2008
  #28
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You could just buy a Genex multitrack and not go bat**** crazy trying to sync all those Korgs, too.

Genex Audio | Hardware

48 tracks of DSD, no wacky stacks of Korg boxes.
Old 3rd September 2008
  #29
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Originally Posted by MAzevedo View Post
You could just buy a Genex multitrack and not go bat**** crazy trying to sync all those Korgs, too.

Genex Audio | Hardware

48 tracks of DSD, no wacky stacks of Korg boxes.
dfegadGenex Doorstop!

Besides, it's only DSD64fs. I can get that many channels into my Pyramix DAW, do the editing/mastering and burn a RBCD or SACD Edited master all in 1 box!

Don't know if you could sync all of those Korg units up though. Would have that wow factor though!

Regards,
Bruce
Old 3rd September 2008
  #30
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Originally Posted by uosdwis View Post
DSD on Blu-ray is a no go, period.
So this has now been shown to be false by Bruce who has apparently done the impossible!

It's always easier to be a naysayer and say what can't be done than to try and think out of the box. That's all I'm trying to do here. In a mastering forum this should be an easy sell as I would think ultimate audio fidelity would be something that all mastering engineers would be for. Yes I know many of you have invested a lot of money in very expensive AD/DA that is exclusively PCM based. Get over it, don't let that cloud your judgment. Also understand that most tests that compare PCM to DSD wheren't recorded to DSD originally they where recorded with either tape or PCM which negates any determinations based on the final results!

Here's a test, take a stereo matched pair of DPA 4041's set up in a nice recording space going into a stereo Earthworks 1022 pre. Then have the left right out from the 1022 go to a y so that the left has two xlr outs and right has two xlr outs. Then run one left and right to the korg recording at 1 bit 5.6 MHz and the other left and right go to a lavry gold or whatever at 24/192 PCM. Now do a double blind ABX test and see which one comes out on top. I know that I could hear the difference, can you, who knows?

As far as syncing the Korg unit's, it is possible. I could post schematics that I've designed to do just that.
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