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This is starting to NOT be a fun place anymore. Studio Headphones
Old 17th August 2008
  #1
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Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 

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This is starting to NOT be a fun place anymore.

I would like to talk about mastering. I would like to converse with other people who are interested in talking about mastering. I DO NOT WANT to read though a lot of messages that are personal attacks or are aimed solely at creating controversy.

It would be nice if the general tone of this web board could go back to the time when we all got along civilly and there was less noise and more content. This is one of the most professional web boards on the web and I would like to keep it that way if at all possible.

Lately there seems to be a few posters who think that it is ok to do personal attacks on senior members of the mastering profession for what ever reason. There are also a few posters that want to push their agenda or want to prove that they are more well informed than they really are or say things just to muddy the waters or create controversy just for the sake of doing it.

Could we get back to the time that we all learned something here and cut out the elementary school playground bullying that seems to be getting more and more prevalent?


Thanks!

One thing that might help a lot is to have people use their REAL names like they do a Brad Blackwood's forum. It seem to keep the noise down when people can't hide behind a nom de plume.
Old 17th August 2008
  #2
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peeder's Avatar
 

How about being specific? Let's take a look at exactly what posts and posters you think should be disappeared by the authorities so that you can feel safely proud of yourself. Or whatever.
Old 17th August 2008
  #3
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Not gonna happen, sorry

Typical of any internet forum. The more people that come, the more stupidity and trolling you'll get. Moderation leads to backlash and backlash is simply more trolling.

The only viable option is the simplest and most obvious one: If you don't like it, click your back button. If you don't have the discipline to do that, then just find another forum. It sucks, but that's how it goes for any growing community whether it be on the internet or in person.

If you wanna show yourself to be one of those 'professionals', then do the professional thing and ignore the bull****, get done what you need to get done and don't bitch about it.
Old 17th August 2008
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SigmaDeltaAudio View Post
Not gonna happen, sorry

Typical of any internet forum. The more people that come, the more stupidity and trolling you'll get. Moderation leads to backlash and backlash is simply more trolling.

The only viable option is the simplest and most obvious one: If you don't like it, click your back button. If you don't have the discipline to do that, then just find another forum. It sucks, but that's how it goes for any growing community whether it be on the internet or in person.

If you wanna show yourself to be one of those 'professionals', then do the professional thing and ignore the bull****, get done what you need to get done and don't bitch about it.
Old 17th August 2008
  #5
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Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by peeder View Post
How about being specific? Let's take a look at exactly what posts and posters you think should be disappeared by the authorities so that you can feel safely proud of yourself. Or whatever.
????????????????You know who they are as well as I do. If you want a good example look at this post Bit depth / dynamic range relationship? and you can see how many post got tagged by the moderator.
Old 17th August 2008
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
????????????????You know who they are as well as I do. If you want a good example look at this post Bit depth / dynamic range relationship? and you can see how many post got tagged by the moderator.
And the mod said:

Quote:
Ignoring the person or the people that upset you is much better
As was said above.

Seems like some fairly well-known ME's got posts deleted in that thread. Should we ban them too? How do we measure who is worthy?

I ignored that entire thread and would have never known about it unless you CONTRIBUTED to the poor signal-to-noise by crying about it.

This forum is sorted by most recent comment; complaints ALWAYS make a situation worse.

_______________________________________

(Oh now I'm going to create a time warp, which I hope doesn't blow the server, by replying to something in the future:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 24-96 Mastering View Post
That's also why I am not replying to this thread. Errr.... heh
heh But I can respond without bumping the thread! )
Old 17th August 2008
  #7
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Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SigmaDeltaAudio View Post
Not gonna happen, sorry

Typical of any Internet forum. The more people that come, the more stupidity and trolling you'll get. Moderation leads to backlash and backlash is simply more trolling.

The only viable option is the simplest and most obvious one: If you don't like it, click your back button. If you don't have the discipline to do that, then just find another forum. It sucks, but that's how it goes for any growing community whether it be on the Internet or in person.

If you wanna show yourself to be one of those 'professionals', then do the professional thing and ignore the bull****, get done what you need to get done and don't bitch about it.
As much as I hate to admit it you are 100% correct. However if the noise factor does not get solved soon there will be less and less content and more and more bickering and name calling and the back button will become the button of choice.

As to your last paragraph. Not sure what " then do the professional thing and ignore the bull****, get done what you need to get done and don't bitch about it" means. I especially don't understand what "get done what you need to get done" means since reading the forum is what I am here for and it is sometimes hard to read when the overall noise level is so high. I am also not bitching but stating some facts. If you want to see some bitching ask me about the cost of the Iraq war or the current gas prices or the current administrations lack of a program to end global warming....then you will see some REAL bitching.
Old 17th August 2008
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peeder View Post

I ignored that entire thread and would have never known about it unless you CONTRIBUTED to the poor signal-to-noise by crying about it.

This forum is sorted by most recent comment; complaints ALWAYS make a situation worse.
That's also why I am not replying to this thread. Errr.... heh
Old 17th August 2008
  #9
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Robert Randolph's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
As to your last paragraph. Not sure what " then do the professional thing and ignore the bull****, get done what you need to get done and don't bitch about it" means. I especially don't understand what "get done what you need to get done" means since reading the forum is what I am here for and it is sometimes hard to read when the overall noise level is so high. I am also not bitching but stating some facts. If you want to see some bitching ask me about the cost of the Iraq war or the current gas prices or the current administrations lack of a program to end global warming....then you will see some REAL bitching.
You seemed to miss the 'ignore the bull****' phrase. That's the part that makes the other 2 parts work.

I see no problem with leaving if it's too noisy to have a conversation you want to have. That's what a reasonable person would do in a restaurant, or bar or even a concert. Take the person(s) aside you wish to converse with and go somewhere with less noise.

I guess 'common sense' often is the enemy of convenience, and convenience wins without much fight most of the time.
Old 17th August 2008
  #10
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Lets see ....

Peeder 7.39 post per day

Thomas W. Bethel .44 post per day

Which person is doing more posting? Which person is doing more complaining or adding to the overall noise figure?
Old 17th August 2008
  #11
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Although it is indeed best to ignore the bickering in any individual thread, I don't see what the problem is with Thomas making a general appeal to try and stay kind and polite. The wiser people, even if they have previously let themselves get dragged in to the bickering, would see this as a reminder and think twice next time they respond to a less than friendly post.

At least one person is not heeding their own advice and their tone is bitchy in this very thread!

Alistair
Old 17th August 2008
  #12
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ISedlacek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post

One thing that might help a lot is to have people use their REAL names like they do a Brad Blackwood's forum. It seem to keep the noise down when people can't hide behind a nom de plume.
I am absolutely for it .. I really don´t understand why in such a specialised forum and discussions people need to be hiding behind some anonymous nicknames. I would definitely love to know with whom I am discussing some interesting topics, to know the person´s background (link to his studio etc.). Not being anonymous makes also people talking more seriously and politely ...

Applying THIS here (I mean Gearslutz) would be great

I always feel a bit reseverved to discuss something with compressor4678 or musicdigger6
Old 17th August 2008
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
I am absolutely for it .. I really don´t understand why in such a specialised forum and discussions people need to be hiding behind some anonymous nicknames. I would definitely love to know with whom I am discussing some interesting topics, to know the person´s background (link to his studio etc.). Not being anonymous makes also people talking more seriously and politely ...

Applying THIS here would be great

I always feel a bit reseverved to discuss something with compressor4678 or musicdigger6

I'll tell you why.

And hopefully the same sitch doesnt happen again....

I get about 100 or so CDs a month. Unsolicited.
I get pretty much around 20 emails a day for jobs or music work.

Neither are useful to me (or them really - I don't have the time).

I've ben in and out of these forums since the beginning. Under different names. I shut down under one username when the private messages get too tedious. I've been called rude for not responding to PMs of this nature quite regularly! Why? Because I make other people money. I place stuff - I run a very successful music production company. We do localisation, we record, we compose, we produce name bands, we break bands into the mainstream, we record orchestra for some very well known brands and labels, we manage marketing projects, we manage artists, we sync license nearly EVERYBODY in video games (if we don't sync you, you're not on games - pretty much !). Now I've told you that - I'm expecting a deluge of myspace bands looking for tracks on games. Great.

This place is where I come to relax.

Perhaps we should have to declare ourselves to the moderators and then they can give us a rank or whatever.... The trolls and troublemakers are invariably wannabes. Wannabes hate others success. Newbies, on the other hand, are thristy for knowledge and should be encouraged...not berated for lack of knowledge.

There is - however - no excuse for some of the rude behaviour that goes on here by those who should know better. There are two I can think of right away - and one of them is ignorant of his own disinformation.

Mods - It's got so big here, and this is your place, you ARE gonna have to dish out the justice just a little more often. Three strikes and out would be a good move. Log the IP addresses, don't let them log back in for a month. That'll stop the multiuser thing. OR attach it all to emails.....
Old 17th August 2008
  #14
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
Lets see ....

Peeder 7.39 post per day

Thomas W. Bethel .44 post per day

Which person is doing more posting? Which person is doing more complaining or adding to the overall noise figure?
I Agree. This guy "Peeder" is definitely some guy who sits at his day job desk all day posting harsh opinions / replies to other threads. Nothing wrong with that but If he was actually a working engineer he would not be able to post as much as he does.

I would love to hear some of his work. I am sure its horrible.

He seems to be a bitter person in general.

Just ignore him.

JN
Old 17th August 2008
  #15
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Robert Randolph's Avatar
 

+1 for real names.

I don't see how it'll stop people from posting under a pseudonym though
Old 17th August 2008
  #16
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I think the mods do a great job of staying out of the way. It must be frustrating sometimes having to be so "moderate" all the time, but that is the gig. Jules chose well with Jay and Riccardo. Making their jobs more complicated is probably not the best the best move.... maybe.

I think anonymity is overrated on a board like this one and mostly unnecessary [if you really need to post anonymously or you just don't have the stones to be responsible for the things you say, maybe you shouldn't be posting]. Using your real name won't stop everybody from trolling but it will likely cut it down significantly.

Of course there are some exceptions like Narcoman that have valid reasons for keeping a low profile.

There is no perfect solution to the troll/wannabe/pretender issue.

Except maybe the ignore button.... but who has the discipline for that?
Old 17th August 2008
  #17
Deleted User #43636
Guest
Some of the last obvious trolling issues were involving people using their names or studio name as nicks.

Names are unimportant, only behaviour and messages' content are...

I'm afraid that some people here would not answer a question the same way if they think that the one who asks is famous.

To me, the use of actual names should be forbidden, as well as advertising, to make everyone equal.
What should be focused on is what people say, not who they are.
Old 17th August 2008
  #18
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"default to bypass" is not only a credo for a processing chain, but a subtle reminder for me on posting in threads where there might be a high troll factor.

Either don't respond, or fill it with responses so absurd that the original intent of the troll is uesless. Trolls thrive on attention, creating animosity between members, and chaos. If you don't feed them they tend to go elsewhere for food.
Old 17th August 2008
  #19
CDS
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Quote:
+1 for real names.

I don't see how it'll stop people from posting under a pseudonym though
AES and NAMM.. sure , but on a message board, there are some very respected people that post here that just do not want to be public. This is the great thing about online forums..

Quote:
It would be nice if the general tone of this web board could go back to the time when we all got along civilly and there was less noise and more content. This is one of the most professional web boards on the web and I would like to keep it that way if at all possible.

Lately there seems to be a few posters who think that it is ok to do personal attacks on senior members of the mastering profession for what ever reason. There are also a few posters that want to push their agenda or want to prove that they are more well informed than they really are or say things just to muddy the waters or create controversy just for the sake of doing it.
Personal attacks on any board is going to happen from anyone living with the frustration (and jealousy) of not being able to deliver what others can. For the most part, I feel GS is well kept and generally I can easily tell when a poster is trying to go "against the grain" rather than making a "strong point". Sometimes people will disagree and while thats fine, I find some of these "Senior Members" of this forum at times totally annihilate the spirit of questions or responses by new members or members not too knowledgeable (or wanting to learn) about a particular subject.
Old 17th August 2008
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanddigger1 View Post
Some of the last obvious trolling issues were involving people using their names or studio name as nicks.

Names are unimportant, only behaviour and messages' content are...

I'm afraid that some people here would not answer a question the same way if they think that the one who asks is famous.

To me, the use of actual names should be forbidden, as well as advertising, to make everyone equal.
What should be focused on is what people say, not who they are.
I see it absolutely opposite. It is quite important for me to know to whom I am talking or who is talking. If say Plush or Benjamin Maas give some advice for location recordings, you can for sure know it is a genuine one, not just some hearsay talk. If Michael Wagener or Lindell talk about some EQ/comp you can for sure know it has some background. When Dan Lavry talks about some clock/digital issues, it has some weight ... When xyz54 talks about something, you have no idea what it is about and what is this person´s background and credit.

A real name is not that important (although definitely nice) as knowing the person´s level of involvement - is he a hobbyist or owner of a grand studio, is he from Antarctica or Japan ? The section "about me" should be absolutely compulsory here, including some web links ... It would be then much more useful/personal/friendly place IMO.
Old 17th August 2008
  #21
CDS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
I see it absolutely opposite. It is quite important to know to whom you are talking or who is talking. If say Plush or Benjamin Maas give some advice for location recordings, you can for sure know it is a genuine one, not just some hearsay talk. If Michael Wagener or Lindell talk about some EQ/comp you can for sure know it has some background. When Dan Lavry talks about some clock/digital issues, it has some weight ... When xyz54 talks about something, you have no idea what it is about and what is this person´s background and credit.

A real name is not that important (although definitely nice) as knowing the person´s level of involvement - is he a hobbyist or owner of a grand studio, is he from Antarctica or Japan ? The section "about me" should be absolutely compulsory here, including some web links ... It would be then much more useful/personal/friendly place IMO.
I agree, what's the point of being part of a professional community if no one can look around a possibly find people to work with aside from getting information from them on this forum. Gaining good knowledge after investing years of hard work should grant a guy the chance to find colleagues and possibly clients by displaying that they know what they are talking about.
Old 17th August 2008
  #22
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I think that the problem, as people have already stated, is just the fact that this is on the internet. A lot of people, myself included (but at least I can admit it), seem to be more hostile online. There's a new recording forum here:
Home Recording Studio Forum - Index
...where I've already been berated and insulted by the only other actively posting member. The forum hasn't even been up a week.

Personally, I think it's just dumb to go insulting people who are here to help you learn. I know I still have much to learn and would rather not scare people away.
Old 17th August 2008
  #23
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We've had a recent rash of bickering posts, but that's hardly a reason to throw in the towel for the group. Ignore those threads if they are too annoying, and more importantly, ignore the bait.

If you want to correct erroneous info, which is certainly a worthwhile motivation, just plainly correct it and move on. If the person comes back with insults and bait, ignore it. The correction stands, and most people can see what's going on and come to the right conclusions.

When you join the fray, regardless of who started it, you escalate the problem and become part of it. I like to think the majority of the readership is able to understand subtlety, and a full frontal assault is neither necessary nor helpful.

Chris is right that we mods try to stay out of the way as much as possible, but need to step in when it gets out of hand. Even then we try to be even-handed and let everybody's basic ideas come through, even as we try to clean up the nasty stuff. It's no fun to spend hours sifting through all this, I can assure you. Please help to make our jobs a little easier, and the board a nicer place to be for everyone, and so that we retain the quality posters and attract even more.

Thanks to all! We really do appreciate your contributions.
Old 17th August 2008
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayfrigo View Post
...Ignore those threads if they are too annoying, and more importantly, ignore the bait.

If you want to correct erroneous info, which is certainly a worthwhile motivation, just plainly correct it and move on. If the person comes back with insults and bait, ignore it. The correction stands, and most people can see what's going on and come to the right conclusions.

When you join the fray, regardless of who started it, you escalate the problem and become part of it. I like to think the majority of the readership is able to understand subtlety, and a full frontal assault is neither necessary nor helpful.
These are the best comments in the thread. I myself would like to apologize to Jay for my participation in the latest bickering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDS View Post
...I find some of these "Senior Members" of this forum at times totally annihilate the spirit of questions or responses by new members or members not too knowledgeable (or wanting to learn) about a particular subject.
CDS, you
hit the nail on the head...



Quote:
Originally Posted by masteringhouse View Post
"default to bypass" is not only a credo for a processing chain, but a subtle reminder for me on posting in threads where there might be a high troll factor.

Either don't respond, or fill it with responses so absurd that the original intent of the troll is uesless. Trolls thrive on attention, creating animosity between members, and chaos. If you don't feed them they tend to go elsewhere for food.
That's very good...

Quote:
Originally Posted by peeder View Post
And the mod said:

As was said above.

Seems like some fairly well-known ME's got posts deleted in that thread. Should we ban them too?
Fair enough...thumbsup

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
I would like to talk about mastering. I would like to converse with other people who are interested in talking about mastering. I DO NOT WANT to read though a lot of messages that are personal attacks or are aimed solely at creating controversy.

It would be nice if the general tone of this web board could go back to the time when we all got along civilly and there was less noise and more content. This is one of the most professional web boards on the web and I would like to keep it that way if at all possible.

Lately there seems to be a few posters who think that it is ok to do personal attacks on senior members of the mastering profession for what ever reason. There are also a few posters that want to push their agenda or want to prove that they are more well informed than they really are or say things just to muddy the waters or create controversy just for the sake of doing it.

Could we get back to the time that we all learned something here and cut out the elementary school playground bullying that seems to be getting more and more prevalent?
Part of the problem is that some of you view with disdain the existence of music mastering online facilities.

Perhaps things could run smoother if all users respected the other user's view. i.e. I don't believe the acoustics in your room are right. That's my opinion, See? If you now respond with an irate tone, it's only *You* who starts the bickering.

If you don't want people to comment on your room, then, you don't ask for it....
Old 17th August 2008
  #25
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I don't think anyone here has disdain for (honest, ethical) online facilities. But many people have disdain for erroneous information. Especially when it becomes SOP from individual parties.

Note that I'm not bickering or pointing fingers at anyone - I'm just making a statement.
Old 17th August 2008
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MASSIVE Master View Post
I don't think anyone here has disdain for (honest, ethical) online facilities. But many people have disdain for erroneous information.
*Disdain* is a very strong word in case English is not your first language...
Old 17th August 2008
  #27
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Quote:
*Disdain* is a very strong word in case English is not your first language...
Yes, that's why I assumed you used it.

Not bickering, but look at your last post...
Quote:
Part of the problem is that some of you view with disdain the existence of music mastering online facilities.
See?

Why do you have to constantly stir the [SELF-CENSORED] like that? Why do you always have to throw insults from the side like that?

Last edited by MASSIVE Master; 17th August 2008 at 06:27 PM.. Reason: Oh my God, I'm SO done with this...
Old 17th August 2008
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MASSIVE Master View Post
Yes, that's why I assumed you used it.

Not bickering, but look at your last post...

See?

Why do you have to constantly stir the [SELF-CENSORED] like that? Why do you always have to throw insults from the side like that?
IMO, if someone feels disdain for a mastering online facility is probably because that's a service they don't provide or never intend to do so (for whatever their reasons). But, if someone feels *disdain* for an written error on a post, he/she should seek a therapist...
Old 17th August 2008
  #29
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Quote:
IMO, if someone feels disdain for a mastering online facility is probably because that's a service they don't provide or never intend to do so (for whatever their reasons).
EVERY mastering facility with a web site is an "online" facility. Why would anyone feel disdain for that? Services they don't provide?

I...

Oh [SELF-CENSORED] it.
Old 17th August 2008
  #30
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joerod's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MASSIVE Master View Post
EVERY mastering facility with a web site is an "online" facility. Why would anyone feel disdain for that? Services they don't provide?

I...

Oh [SELF-CENSORED] it.
Actually, you are (technically speaking) correct, and you are typical example of that, are you not? You accept CDs by mail, but not uploads/downloads (FTP site whatever). That's not how you do things. At least that's what you advertised on your site a couple of weeks ago...

EDIT: Are there mastering facilities here at GS that don't do online mastering? Is everybody doing this now. Sterling?
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