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bounce to disk VS. print new stereo track Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 23rd October 2007
  #121
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On one hand you are scientist audio geeks with such a deep understanding of digital aduio and yet scuff off the benifits of a technical ground. Do you even know what that is?

What this says to me is you are more into thorey, and math, not so much in what you hear. That's cool, no disrespect. I just wanted to share my results with you. As a mater of fact, i'd much rather mix with analog summing, like"The Dangerous", which would make my point mute.
Old 23rd October 2007
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzmo View Post
On one hand you are scientist audio geeks with such a deep understanding of digital aduio and yet scuff off the benifits of a technical ground. Do you even know what that is?

What this says to me is you are more into thorey, and math, not so much in what you hear. That's cool, no disrespect. I just wanted to share my results with you. As a mater of fact, i'd much rather mix with analog summing, like"The Dangerous", which would make my point mute.
I had a fairly ridiculous response to this thread, but decided instead to take a different approach:

For someone interested enough in mastering to join this BB and ask for the opinions of some of the best and most respected ME's in the industry (of which I am emphatically NOT, I might add), you've certainly put up one hell of a battle for someone "not trying to prove anything." The fact that anyone is still willing to hear you out even after your defensive and evasive posts does nothing but reflect on their apparently infinite patience and willingness to help you - and your complete lack of understanding of digital audio and willingness to be helped. Fact is, these guys KNOW what they're doing, KNOW why things work the way they do, and have made very successful and well-respected careers for themselves in the industry. Part of their day-to-day job is troubleshooting issues exactly like you're experiencing. And even though they've already solved your problem, they're STILL willing to hear you out, if only you could provide actual proof that BTD and RTD sound different (which means knowing how to set up a valid test, which apparently you cannot).

SO, I will end my rant with an apology: I don't mean to start a flame war, and I don't mean this as an attack on your character or ability - but I feel the need to "set the record straight."

Also, for any who are actually curious - I set up a test to run an imported bounce out of PT via AES/EBU and back, and will post my findings later this evening.
Old 4th January 2008
  #123
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pootkao's Avatar
Hey folks
Sorry to bring this thread back from the dead, but its better than starting a new one for such a small question.

On an earlier page, Bob mentioned the use of a Dithered Mixer or Non-Dithered Mixer in PTHD. I just wanted to ask about the differences between them (I imagine they're selectable from the Preferences setup?). And I was also curious if this relates to the default Dither within ProTools.

An earlier thread I was reading tonight also mentioned that one should turn off the automatic dither and just use a plug-in so that you don't dither unnessecarily or twice -- something I wasn't even aware was going on: that an automatic dither was always engaged.

Is there a relationship between the Dithered/Non-Dithered Mixer and the Automatic Dither, or are we talking about two different setups here? Any clarification you can provide is greatly appreciated! Thanks.
Old 4th January 2008
  #124
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Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Verified Member
The dithered mixer is installed in the disabled plug-ins folder in the DAE folder. You need to substitute it for the mixer plug in in the plug ins folder.

I assume the reason they don't just install it in the first place is that it uses a lot more DSP leaving less available for other plug-ins. High-end digital consoles don't have dither you can disable that I'm aware of.
Old 4th January 2008
  #125
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Also the dithered mixer is used to convert from the internal 48 bit path back to 24 bit. You should dither whenever the audio goes from a higher bit depth to a lower once, so it isn't redundant dithering in this case. This only applies to TDM systems, LE doesn't have a dithered mixer.

My guess is that the thread you were referring to is addressing going from a 16 bit dithered signal to 24 and then dithering back to 16? In this case it's better to start with 24 bit audio.
Old 4th January 2008
  #126
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Just to clarify :

- If the Dithered Mixer is installed, anytime audio is sent to the internal mix bus of PT (bussing, plug-ins, aux's - basically any time the audio isn't going directly to a hardware output path), it's being converted to 48-bit for processing (PT is just adding a couple extra 8-bit words full of 0's for higher quality processing). When this is converted back to your session bit-depth (i.e: going to your Master Output or any other hardware output), then PT is adding the default Digi dither plug-in to the audio stream (the dither plug-in is not changeable for this process - you can't choose POWR Dither, for example).

- If the regular Mixer (Stereo or Surround flavored) is installed, then the same process as described above applies, except the bit word is truncated when it goes back to the native session bit-depth.

- The trade-off is DSP - Dithered Mixers use more TDM processing.

- While HD has an internal mix bus of 48-bit non-float, LE's mix bus uses a 32-bit floating-point architecture (no internal dither is applied).

You can read more about this on Digi's white paper, entitled "The Pro Tools 48-bit Mixer" :
Digidesign | Support | Digidesign Technical White Papers

- If we're talking about bouncing your session down to Red-Book format, however, then this does not apply. In that scenario, you would have to apply a dither plug-in (of your choice) to the Master Output (if you don't, then your audio will be truncated during Bounce To Disk).

- Anytime you export a region (instead of BTD) to a lower bit-depth, then the default Digi Dither is automatically applied. This cannot be bypassed, nor can the Dither plug-in be swapped for a different one.

- Importing a lower bit-depth audio file will not apply Dither (just add 0's), but importing a higher bit-depth file will. This also cannot be bypassed or changed.

- If you Audiosuite a track, then it again will process at 48-bit (HD) or 32-bit (LE) and apply dither by default. The default Dither plug-in can be changed in this case (Setup > Preferences > Processing), or bypassed all together.

You shouldn't worry about double-dither unless you have more than one instance of a Dither plug-in in your session for some reason. Read the white paper if you want to know why it's not an issue.

Hope this helps!
Old 5th January 2008
  #127
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Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Dithering to 24 followed by dithering to 16 later on is NOT "double dither."

Dithering to 16 and then doing further processing and dithering again to 16 is not double dither.


Double dither is when you take audio that has been dithered and dither it again when you make a copy with no signal processing at all.
Old 5th January 2008
  #128
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UnderTow's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jordanstoner View Post
Just to clarify :

- If the Dithered Mixer is installed, anytime audio is sent to the internal mix bus of PT (bussing, plug-ins, aux's - basically any time the audio isn't going directly to a hardware output path), it's being converted to 48-bit for processing (PT is just adding a couple extra 8-bit words full of 0's for higher quality processing).
The TDM plugin path is 24 bits. It is only the summing that happens at 48 bits. RTAS plugins are 32 bit float. If you put two or more RTAS plugins in a row, they will communicate at 32 bit float and the last plugin will return 24 bits to the mixer.

Some TDM plugins use 48 bits internally. It is up to the plugin developer to ensure that the output is properly dithered to 24 bits.

Quote:
When this is converted back to your session bit-depth (i.e: going to your Master Output or any other hardware output), then PT is adding the default Digi dither plug-in to the audio stream (the dither plug-in is not changeable for this process - you can't choose POWR Dither, for example).
Indeed and this is correct. Using anything but TPDF dither would be wrong for this task.

Quote:
- If you Audiosuite a track, then it again will process at 48-bit (HD)
That depends of the process. It could also be 24 bits.

Alistair
Old 29th June 2008
  #129
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---->Here's a weird something...

with Bounce to Disk in Logic 8, sometimes I find that the bounce comes out different from what I am hearing when I play the multitracked session... compression does not come through, some plugins do not sound...

it is strange, and I'm quite sure I'm not doing anything wrong. Perhaps I'm missing a check box [] somewhere, but I doubt it.


---->My solution has been to play the logic file from the first bar and record it with Audio Hijack in 24 bit 44.1. The resulting file seems to be exactly what I heard coming from Logic, and I am happy with the results.

It seems to be a perfect digital transfer.

Anyone else do anything similar?

Am I missing quality in the mix this way, or is it truly a perfect digital transfer?


Thanks for any input. stike
Old 29th June 2008
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desotoslo View Post

My solution has been to play the logic file from the first bar and record it with Audio Hijack in 24 bit 44.1.
How do you get Audio Hijack to record 24 bits?

John Link
Old 29th June 2008
  #131
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T_R_S's Avatar
I am not sure if this has been mentioned but a former Protools HD beta tester extensive work was done on BTD. Because BTD seizes the Protools application is spends all of Protools CPU usage into the accurate possible automation to record down the file file. From what the software engineers told me from Digi it is the accurate why to record down your track
Old 29th June 2008
  #132
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desotoslo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlink View Post
How do you get Audio Hijack to record 24 bits?

John Link
I am using Audio Hijack Pro.

1) Go to "Recording"

2) select "For burning to CD (AIFF)"

3) Scroll down in the same list to "Custom". There is a choice for "Type". 24 bit is there for me.

I'm using v2.8d3

Dave
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