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Limiter comparisons (with sound) Dynamics Plugins
Old 9th August 2009
  #181
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lucey's Avatar
 

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Just spent a couple of days with Ozone 4's limiter ... and why I did this I'm now unsure ... still waiting for the plug that actually works.

Using it at the most minimal settings, no reduction, or at most 0.2-0.4 ... it lost the harmonic beauty and often the linearity of the source no matter the settings, and I tried them all.



Is there a limiter that deals with intersample peaks and does no other damage?
Old 9th August 2009
  #182
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Table Of Tone's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey View Post
Just spent a couple of days with Ozone 4's limiter ... and why I did this I'm now unsure ... still waiting for the plug that actually works.

Using it at the most minimal settings, no reduction, or at most 0.2-0.4 ... it lost the harmonic beauty and often the linearity of the source no matter the settings, and I tried them all.



Is there a limiter that deals with intersample peaks and does no other damage?
Yep!
I'm in the same boat with that one.
I can't find any limiter that doesn't mess with something along the line.
Old 10th August 2009
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey View Post
Just spent a couple of days with Ozone 4's limiter ... and why I did this I'm now unsure ... still waiting for the plug that actually works.

Using it at the most minimal settings, no reduction, or at most 0.2-0.4 ... it lost the harmonic beauty and often the linearity of the source no matter the settings, and I tried them all.
If you don't mind my asking - did you use a limiter on your album that you posted recently?

Mychal
Old 10th August 2009
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peakly View Post
If you don't mind my asking - did you use a limiter on your album that you posted recently?

Mychal
Clipping and L2. Those mixes were all remastered BTW ... grab them again if you liked the music. Free to GS, soon to be for sale.
Old 10th August 2009
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt View Post
I don't think the W1 is identical to the L1, where did you get that information? Did you do a null test?

I remember listening to the W1 and it didn't sound anything like the L1 to me back then.
.. and I quote from the website of the guy who programmed the W1: "W1 Limiter is a clone of Waves L1, with identical output."

Ever wondered why it is called W1? :-)

Cheers!
bManic
Old 10th August 2009
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey View Post
Is there a limiter that deals with intersample peaks and does no other damage?
I'm pretty sure it is not possible. As soon as you mess with the original data, you do "damage". It's only a question about subjective opinion. What "damage" do you tolerate.

.. and don't tell me you tolerate L2 damage.

Cheers!
bManic
Old 10th August 2009
  #188
Audio Alchemist
 
Lagerfeldt's Avatar
I like the flexibility of the Flux limiter and I think it does fairly little "damage" when used under normal circumstances, especially since you can control the sidechain filter of the release envelope.
Old 11th August 2009
  #189
Gear Nut
 

I would like to hear thoughts on PSP's Vintage Warmer and how it compares.
Old 12th August 2009
  #190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aperus View Post
I would like to hear thoughts on PSP's Vintage Warmer and how it compares.
Hello Aperus,
How are you?

Vintage Warmer is a compressor, not a brickwall limiter. It's a different kettle of fish. Altogether.


My 2c - Elephant 3 is the best sounding, "easiest-to-cause-least-damage" limiter I've ever used. Ozone4's Intelligent-II algorithm is excellent for aggressive and/or percussive music, but I find Elephant 3 is far more flexible.
Old 12th August 2009
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmanic View Post
.. and I quote from the website of the guy who programmed the W1: "W1 Limiter is a clone of Waves L1, with identical output."

Ever wondered why it is called W1? :-)

Cheers!
bManic
You're missing my point.

Don't trust what you read on the website, test it for yourself. It sounded anything but identical to me. So I asked you if you did a null test?
Old 12th August 2009
  #192
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Ben F's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by daxliniere View Post
Hello Aperus,
How are you?

Vintage Warmer is a compressor, not a brickwall limiter. It's a different kettle of fish. Altogether.
.
The Vintage Warmer 2 does have a limiter. PSP Xenon is their purpose built limiter.
Old 13th August 2009
  #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt View Post
You're missing my point.

Don't trust what you read on the website, test it for yourself. It sounded anything but identical to me. So I asked you if you did a null test?
A long long time ago when it was released we did do a null test but it was kind of void because the Waves L1 files was processed on a Pro Tools HD (tdm plugin) and the w1 is obvious a vst plugin. It didn't cancel out but we deemed the reason to be the dithering of the Waves.

The general opinion was though that we would not be able to pick it out in an ABX test.

If you really like the w1 then perhaps check George Yong's newest limiter, the one in the Vienna plugin package. That one was actually rather smooth (reminded me of the Flux one a bit but with a different flavor).

EDIT: if we still have it installed at the university then I could run a new null test with the Waves L1.

Cheers!
bManic
Old 13th August 2009
  #194
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt View Post
You're missing my point.

Don't trust what you read on the website, test it for yourself. It sounded anything but identical to me. So I asked you if you did a null test?
Totally agree with you here.
Old 13th August 2009
  #195
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MattGray's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey View Post
Just spent a couple of days with Ozone 4's limiter ...

Using it at the most minimal settings, no reduction, or at most 0.2-0.4 ... it lost the harmonic beauty and often the linearity of the source no matter the settings, and I tried them all.
When you say you tried them 'all' was this always with the 'prevent inter-sample clipping' setting engaged?

I always use Ozone 4 with this setting off as my findings were similar to yours. Setting the output ceiling of the limiter a few tenths of a dB below 0.0dBFS works best for me with some clever post SRC tricks.

Without this setting on I find Ozone 4 to be a very capable & transparent limiter with the Intel II mode, dual mono mode (unlinked) & small amounts of GR. Easily leaving less of a sonic footprint than the L2.

Quote:
Is there a limiter that deals with intersample peaks and does no other damage?
Not with this feature/function switched in...
Old 13th August 2009
  #196
kjg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey View Post
Is there a limiter that deals with intersample peaks and does no other damage?
Have you tried Kjaerhus MPL-1?
Old 13th August 2009
  #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmanic View Post
I'm pretty sure it is not possible. As soon as you mess with the original data, you do "damage". It's only a question about subjective opinion. What "damage" do you tolerate.

.. and don't tell me you tolerate L2 damage.

Cheers!
bManic
When I say damage, I mean that when a fully processed track comes out of the limiter set to only grab intersample peaks over the preexisting ceiling, that the audio sounds unaltered.

The L2 is perfectly fine if not reducing more than 2.5 db, and it has some musical qualities if used as part of an analog processing chain. I prefer it to the PL-2 and any other hardware limiter. Wouldn't use it on a digital file, ever!

I'm looking for an intersample grabber, only.
Old 13th August 2009
  #198
kjg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey View Post
When I say damage, I mean that when a fully processed track comes out of the limiter set to only grab intersample peaks over the preexisting ceiling, that the audio sounds unaltered.
I'm sure you realize that a limiter that only grabs intersample peaks is still somehow processing the audio. It must alter the program to get rid of the potential intersample peaks. It doing that (altering) without it *ever* being audible is maybe a bit of a tall order.

Still, have you tried MPL-1? It does not oversample the audio but only the SC, and has clever time-based linking. Very good candidate for the job you describe imho. Ideally the minimum release time should be shorter even, but the current 5ms is good for most jobs.

best,
kjg
Old 13th August 2009
  #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjg View Post
I'm sure you realize that a limiter that only grabs intersample peaks is still somehow processing the audio. It must alter the program to get rid of the potential intersample peaks. It doing that (altering) without it *ever* being audible is maybe a bit of a tall order.

Still, have you tried MPL-1? It does not oversample the audio but only the SC, and has clever time-based linking. Very good candidate for the job you describe imho.

best,
kjg
I'll check that out.

Yet I don't think it's a tall order ... if there is no intersample peak then it should do nothing, code in and code out ... if there is a peak then fix it ... I'm thinking about 1 every 20-30 seconds, not one every other sample.
Old 13th August 2009
  #200
kjg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey View Post
I'll check that out.

Yet I don't think it's a tall order ... if there is no intersample peak then it should do nothing, code in and code out ... if there is a peak then fix it ... I'm thinking about 1 every 20-30 seconds, not one every other sample.
Yes, but the moment that peak is there it is doing something, so you might in some cases hear that. I fully agree that it should be bit transparent when not in GR. I'm pretty sure MPL1 is.

Try it, it might work for you. Also, tried Flux pure yet? Might be useful for this job as well.
edit: actually, not sure about Flux Pure. It is a nice limiter, but I'm not sure if/how it detects/handles ISPs.
Old 13th August 2009
  #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjg View Post
Yes, but the moment that peak it is there it is doing something, so you might in some cases hear that. I fully agree that it should be bit transparent when not in GR. I'm pretty sure MPL1 is.
Sounds good, thanks.

My first test of anything digital is a straight pass, as I'm only looking for plugs to do perfectionist tasks anyway. So far no love with limiters, but I'll press on when time permits.
Old 14th August 2009
  #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey View Post
When I say damage, I mean that when a fully processed track comes out of the limiter set to only grab intersample peaks over the preexisting ceiling, that the audio sounds unaltered.
Sometimes the cure can be worse than the disease... What intersample peaks are you referring to? The ones that could potentially arise in cheaper consumer DAC's or the ones that often occur post SRC from 96kHz down to 44.1kHz?

Matt
Old 14th August 2009
  #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattGray View Post
Sometimes the cure can be worse than the disease... What intersample peaks are you referring to? The ones that could potentially arise in cheaper consumer DAC's or
Yes, those. Sony Mexico has a tech that doesn't accept my -0.3 master if it has sporadic ISPs.
Old 15th August 2009
  #204
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wow... first instance I've heard of a master being rejected for ISP's. Has he been a tech there since 1980? Can't believe there would be many modern masters that would past such a test even from the likes of Ludwig or Jensen.

Let's face it, ISP's aren't the real problem it's the push into the limiter or clipping that incurs the most audible distortion. Now let's get the plants to police that!
Old 15th August 2009
  #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattGray View Post
wow... first instance I've heard of a master being rejected for ISP's. Has he been a tech there since 1980? Can't believe there would be many modern masters that would past such a test even from the likes of Ludwig or Jensen.

Let's face it, ISP's aren't the real problem it's the push into the limiter or clipping that incurs the most audible distortion. Now let's get the plants to police that!
You're preaching with your back to the Congregation ! ... and yes, I do think this fella is an older tech ... anyway, the client can't have any ISPs.
Old 15th August 2009
  #206
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Verified Member
I'd love to hear what you people think of Paul Frindle's Dynamic Spectrum Mapper using the limiter. Although not a dedicated limiter tool (same as Ozone) but he was one of the designers of the Sonnox limiter which is highly ranked in this test.
Old 18th August 2009
  #207
Gear Head
 

After much testing my own music I have changed my preference lately.
I've been mostly using Ozone 4, just the limiting and dithering, but I noticed it adds some high end making the master sound a little harsh. I think it's that edge that gives you feeling of more transients.
I wanted to love the UAD PL but it's just ok. I love all the other UAD stuff... FATRSO!
Elephant 3 keeps the punch while allowing a lot of gain. Also keeps the stereo image well.
Sonnox is great transients but adds it's own sound.
Xenon is very clean but I haven't got the hang of it yet.
Flux Limiter is now my favorite. It's doesn't color the mix at all yet it still can crank up pretty well. It sounds full..

If I wanted to compete with the loudness wars leaders it would be Sonnox, Ozone or Elephant. I do mostly RnB Jazz... I'm liking what Flux does a lot.
The demo has no time bomb, but you can't save your settings. I might be buying it soon..

E
Old 20th August 2009
  #208
Triggered by another comment in the https://www.gearslutz.com/board/4493827-post56.html thread, i thought i'd refer to the proper thread for a quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey View Post
...The L2 is perfectly fine if not reducing more than 2.5 db, and it has some musical qualities if used as part of an analog processing chain. I prefer it to the PL-2 and any other hardware limiter. Wouldn't use it on a digital file, ever!...
Brian, are you saying that you're using your L2 analog in & out ?
It seems to me that it will convert to & fro digital internally to provide look ahead / act as a brickwall limiter.

I never tried this actually, since i thought the converters would be outdated compared to my sonic / metric halo converters.

Would you say the double conversion step is still worth the benefit of what's gained (sorry for the pun) ?
Old 21st August 2009
  #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finetuner View Post
Brian, are you saying that you're using your L2 analog in & out ?
Sorry to be less than clear ... I would not use the L2 software for a file that was being processed digitally. There are many better choices. I do use it digitally, while making other choices around it with the analog chain. I do everything outboard, and I mightily resist using even a digital eq for a touch up. I tried the PL-2 as a way to dump the L2 and it didn't work for my specific needs.
Old 21st August 2009
  #210
I did understand that you were speaking of the hardware unit in the chain, i just read it as if you were using the analog in-/outputs in such a case.

We're on the same page then i guess.

Also completely agreed on the 2.5dB.
Just had to send the L2 for repair. So i dug up my ol' TC M5000 to play with it's soft clipper (a completely different beast i know). Then when the L2 came back from service, i compared the two and for a while i thought the TC sounded better f.i. on the snaredrum body (in a mix).
For comparison purposes i had it set for 3dB of GR. As soon as i went below that, the L2 sounded way better. Pheeww
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