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Limiter comparisons (with sound)
Old 22nd October 2007
  #91
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arksun View Post
You might want to pm lagerfeldt with your UAD clip if its any better than the currently posted version. Personally I felt the UAD one was one of the weakest out of those examples, far from transparent.
I agree with you! But it is interesting how little information is left in the residual file, kind of from an algorithmic point of view. As I said I am currently in scientific mode.... I will get to some serious listening when I get a chance..

Which did you prefer? I will look at that one next.

mcg
Old 22nd October 2007
  #92
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Arksun's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgarrett View Post
I agree with you! But it is interesting how little information is left in the residual file, kind of from an algorithmic point of view. As I said I am currently in scientific mode.... I will get to some serious listening when I get a chance..

Which did you prefer? I will look at that one next.

mcg
Out of those posted, the Ozone3...

..BUT, Ozone3 when pushed hard on very heavy mixes starts distorting pretty easily, even when adjusting that slider in intelligent mode trying to find the sweet spot between distorting or pumping. In this particular instance it works really well.

I think whether I use Ozone or Elephant these days will depend on the track.
Old 22nd October 2007
  #93
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swisha31's Avatar
What about the Roger Nichols Elemental plugs. what does anybody feel about the limiter that comes with those plugs.
Old 2nd November 2007
  #94
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Fidelis's Avatar
 

I'm wondering why not test massey L2007? I think it's a great limiter.
Old 2nd November 2007
  #95
Audio Alchemist
 
Lagerfeldt's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by swisha31 View Post
What about the Roger Nichols Elemental plugs. what does anybody feel about the limiter that comes with those plugs.
Nah..
Old 2nd November 2007
  #96
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Arksun's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12345 View Post
I don't know most of these plugins but it makes no sense to compare the "Sonnox Oxford Limiter" to for example the "Waves L3" because the Oxford has a minimum attack and release of 0.05 ms. And if you can't set the limiters to the same parameters you can't compare the sound.
Disagree, it makes perfect sense. All these limiters are designed to do one specific task, to raise the apparent volume of a track with as little distortion as possible (whether that 'distortion' takes the form of transient loss, grittyness, loss of dynamics etc)

As they're all designed to do the same job , its about comparing how they sound with their optimum settings, which may or may NOT be the same for each one. So in that sense attack and release times are irrelivant.

And if the fact one limiter can appear to do a much better job to your ears because it has a better range on the attack and release, then you have found the limiter that works best for you
Old 2nd November 2007
  #97
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zmix's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12345 View Post
I totally disagree! But that's probably the way I'm working. I got to have the control over every parameter. So I need to know the pure character of a limiter (or every other plug-in), then I can be creative in my head and add attack and release imaginary. And then try out and listen.

It's not about loudness because loudness is just the result.
I understand your desire to test the limits of a piece of gear, and often you can learn much about the sonic signature of it. This can be useful to identify when the piece is being pushed too hard under normal use.

I think that it is unfair to dismiss the Oxford because the reported attack range is different than the L3. That is like comparing a Ferrari to a Ford and complaining that the steering mechanism in the Ferrari can only turn the front wheels 32˚ while the Ford can turn 55˚ . Trust that the designers have their reasons for doing so.
Old 2nd November 2007
  #98
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UnderTow's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12345 View Post
I don't know most of these plugins but it makes no sense to compare the "Sonnox Oxford Limiter" to for example the "Waves L3" because the Oxford has a minimum attack and release of 0.05 ms. And if you can't set the limiters to the same parameters you can't compare the sound.

The UltraMaximizer (which is the one being compared) has a minimum release of 0.1 ms. heh

Alistair
Old 3rd November 2007
  #99
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Arksun's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12345 View Post
Of course they have their reasons. At least he could mention that there's a minimum attack and release time and stuff like that because it's important to know. I just like to work very precise and perfect everything but I know most of the people like to push one button and that's it, I just don't like surprises.
The comparison cars with gear is a little off!

Just as the comparison to 'push one button' is off. It's silly to compare with exact same settings in limiting!. Just like eq's sound totally different at same gain/freq/q values, compressors sound very different with identicle attack and release times, so the same holds with limiters.

Thats why the best way to compare is not have them all set to the same settings, but instead using ones ears and finding the 'optimum' setting for each limiter seperately. Thats the way to judge it.

Granted what constitutes 'best' sounding is subjective, but thats the same even when comparing with identicle settings.

Because Ozone 3 uses this 'intelligence' mode with a slider that affects the response in a non attack/release specific control way should that be rulled out too?. Of course not, because it does a fantastic job.

To me the 'only compare exact settings or tools with exactly the same ranges (even though they still wont be 'exact')' is silly.

If one truly wants to work precisely having control over every parameter, then one must accept that each limiter has its own distinctive sound and processing methods and should be mastered in its own quirky way and not to just blindly assume that because one limiter doesn't have the same say release time range, that it can't do as good a job.

Ears > specs on paper every time in my book
Old 3rd November 2007
  #100
Lives for gear
 

from my experience (haven't heard the clips) with hip hop/bass heavy music....from L2, L3, UAD, and Timeworks....timeworks works best for how I mix..., but i don't claim to be a ME.....
Old 5th November 2007
  #101
Gear Addict
 

I appreciate tests like these without using the same settings.
Old 6th November 2007
  #102
Audio Alchemist
 
Lagerfeldt's Avatar
It's by far the most real world-like method.

I'm glad to see a lot of people are finding this test valuable.
Old 7th November 2007
  #103
Hey guys,
For the past few days, I've been auditioning mastering limiters to find the one a mastering friend of mine once eluded to.

I found this thread of yours which convinced me to put my notes into a little thread of my own:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/maste...mastering.html


The purpose of my thread is not to hijack this one, but more to be a companion thread (sister-thread? ), to be a helpful resource to those who seek it. (also, I have no intention of adding audio samples to my post)

All the best!
Dax Liniere.
Old 22nd December 2007
  #104
Here for the gear
 

New limiter!

Head over to Northdweller Index to check out a new limiter! v1.0 is free! Happy holidays.
Old 22nd December 2007
  #105
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northdweller View Post
Head over to Northdweller Index to check out a new limiter! v1.0 is free! Happy holidays.
The web design, and the plugin's GUI make me feel bad .

Sorry.

I know a good designer who can work for it if you want .
Old 22nd December 2007
  #106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt View Post
WHAT
Here's a little something I toyed around with earlier today. A limiter comparison.

Thanks to all those who contributed!

The same track at approximately the same level of RMS (+/- a few fractions), also included is the mastered track in 24 bits without limiting.

Posted with permission from the artist/label naturally.

DIY - guide lines
I've included the original 24 bit master without limiter so you can test with your favorite limiter or favorite settings. But aim for the same RMS level - so do your own level check of my files and your file. Output level is -0.12 dBFS or as close as possible. The straight clipping file (E) was not lowered, so that one peaks at 0 dBFS.

If anyone wants to play along please DO NOT post your version here but send me a YouSendit.com or server link (via PM) and I'll check the RMS value and provide a link in this post.

If you feel you can do an overall better version using one of the already included limiters please let me know and I'll swap my version for your better version.

NO other processing in any way other than the limiter is allowed apart from dithering (your choice but POW-r#3 if possible).

DOWNLOAD
Included in my session are the following files (for now):

www.onlinemastering.dk/temp/A_Oxford.zip
www.onlinemastering.dk/temp/B_L2.zip
www.onlinemastering.dk/temp/C_L3.zip
www.onlinemastering.dk/temp/D_Flux.zip
www.onlinemastering.dk/temp/E_FreeG.zip
www.onlinemastering.dk/temp/F_Elephant.zip
www.onlinemastering.dk/temp/G_Ozone.zip
www.onlinemastering.dk/temp/H_Timeworks.zip
www.onlinemastering.dk/temp/I_UAD.zip
www.onlinemastering.dk/temp/J_Lavry_Blue.zip
www.onlinemastering.dk/temp/X_24bitoriginal.zip

A Sonnox Oxford Limiter
B Waves L2
C Waves L3 UltraMaximizer
D Flux Pure Limiter
E Sonalksis FreeG clipping
F Voxengo Elephant 3
G Ozone Limiter
H Timeworks Master Compressor clipping
I UAD Precision Limiter
J Lavry Blue A/D clipping
X Original 24 bit master without limiter

MY OWN OBSERVATIONS
A Lots of nice transients but also slightly pumping which suits the track fine in this case
B Slightly muddy and significant loss of transients
C Woah, this is bad. Basic Profile with manual release.
D Very nice and less pumping than A but also slightly less transient info remains than in A and G
E Straight clipping works well here but some harshness in the top and less low level detail/less warmth is the price
F Somewhat like L2 but less distortion and over all somewhat better sound
G Very little pumping and nice fullness in the sound, surprisingly much transient info remains
H Too much coloration in the upper mids and somewhat sterile but a bit of clipping is fine
I Slightly too much coloration overall and loss of transients but otherwise fine
J Not rated yet

I'd probably go for A (Sonnox Oxford) or G (Ozone Limiter). If the client wanted even hotter I'd add 0.5 to 1 dB of clipping post fader. In some cases the Flux Pure Limiter (D) would be my choice.

Cheers!
Thanks for doing this.
What about the Gclip clip/limiter? Is it not worthy of your tests or is it because it clips the mix aswell as limits the mix?

Cheers,
Eck
Old 23rd December 2007
  #107
Audio Alchemist
 
Lagerfeldt's Avatar
Thanks,

I'm not adding to this thread anymore as people like sexxy above makes me want to quit this board. Sad really. I hope some moderation will be in place.
Old 23rd December 2007
  #108
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haryy's Avatar
Are the links dead?
Old 23rd December 2007
  #109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt View Post
Thanks,

I'm not adding to this thread anymore as people like sexxy above makes me want to quit this board. Sad really. I hope some moderation will be in place.

Whos sexxy?

Eck
Old 23rd December 2007
  #110
Lives for gear
Could you add the psp xenon here too?
Old 23rd December 2007
  #111
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Arksun's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt View Post
Thanks,

I'm not adding to this thread anymore as people like sexxy above makes me want to quit this board. Sad really. I hope some moderation will be in place.
It seems a pity to further let those people win by removing the links to the limiter examples. This was a good thread with good comparisons thats now been lost and I was looking forward to the addition of the Xenon for comparison.

Any chance you could put the files back up so the links work?.
Old 23rd December 2007
  #112
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Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by cooker View Post
Could you add the psp xenon here too?
Yes, I would be interested in that also.

I'm trying the demo and over the course of 3 days, have used it on about 1/3 of my masters. The L2, used with a max. of -1.5 Threshold, was the preferred method with the rest. I also use the TC 6000 Brickwall but only on material that doesn't need to be too loud (YMMV).

The PSP Xenon allows so much more control over the sound than the L2 but I'm still liking the latter a lot. This is the first time I've had access to 3 limiters at one time so a very interesting experience.

Unfortunately, my L2 hardware is in for repair so I'm stuck with the software. I don't think the sound of the SW vs HW is significantly different but we can't figure any way to unlink the sides of the SW so my testing is somewhat compromised as I use the L2 in unlinked mode 99% of the time.

As it often is with other compressors & limiters, the sound feels a little more open and airy and as long as not too much gain reduction is used, I never notice any shifting of the stereo image.
Old 23rd December 2007
  #113
Can you add the PSP Audioware Xenon?

Bob Katz says to the Xenon:
"PSP Xenon is a very clean, pure-sounding limiter which is also versatile. I have just begun to delve into its more sophisticated functionality, but I have already used it in basic mode on a jazz group and Xenon sounds very transparent to my ears."

Would be interesting how it compares to the others.
Old 24th December 2007
  #114
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt View Post
Thanks,

I'm not adding to this thread anymore as people like sexxy above makes me want to quit this board. Sad really. I hope some moderation will be in place.
Hi Lagerfeldt,
Thanks for starting/maintaining this great thread, one of the most interesting lately.
If only I had downloaded the files sooner! Any chance we can persuade you to put them back online?

After reading through the thread I was looking forward to let all the pieces fall in place by listening to the samples in the studio, but alas, gone.
I respect that continuously adding new files might become a drag, but keeping the existing ones online for another while would be really appreciated.

bests, Bastiaan

ps: Pls don't let let irritations or annoyance ruin a great forum. You're thread is one of the reasons why people come here.
Old 25th December 2007
  #115
Registered User
 

Was 4x oversampling used with Elephant? Oversampling is what makes me like that limiter.
Old 25th December 2007
  #116
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt View Post
Thanks,

I'm not adding to this thread anymore as people like sexxy above makes me want to quit this board. Sad really. I hope some moderation will be in place.
fully agree with bkuijt. The best thing about this thread I liked is that amateur or pro., everybody has got something to read and hopefully listen here.
Old 25th December 2007
  #117
Here for the gear
 

Too Late?

I love this thread... would you please be so kind as to repost the audio files? I was strictly using ozone 3 for my limiting until about 2 or 3 months ago i made the switch to the Massey L2007 after recommendations from fellow slutz... i've been hooked ever since... i definetely switch back and forth depending on the track, but find myself mainly using the L2007... i would like to be able to contribute to the post a version for everyone to be able to hear the difference...
Old 25th December 2007
  #118
Audio Alchemist
 
Lagerfeldt's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkuijt View Post
ps: Pls don't let let irritations or annoyance ruin a great forum. You're thread is one of the reasons why people come here.
I'm sorry, but until the moderators have taken action this is no fun for me. Right now I'm getting spammed by this person via PMs, being called names.

Quite childish really, but rather annoying.
Old 25th December 2007
  #119
x86/x64 Moderator
 
George Necola's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt View Post
I'm sorry, but until the moderators have taken action this is no fun for me. Right now I'm getting spammed by this person via PMs, being called names.

Quite childish really, but rather annoying.
happy christmas Lagerfeldt.. maybe he thinks you are santa, and he is trying to get some snow for christmas.. I know those kind of guys..



we are taking care

happy x-mas
Lagi
Old 25th December 2007
  #120
Audio Alchemist
 
Lagerfeldt's Avatar
Seems the mods did slap him around a bit :-)

I'm coming back to the studio on the 2nd of January, and I'll see about the files. They do take up a bit of server space and you'll be amazed how many people download these files (bandwidth)!

Perhaps some kind of alternative server can be arranged.

Meanwhile happy xmas and happy new year!
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