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How Many Here Using Lipinski L707? Studio Amplifiers
Old 6th September 2007
  #1
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MattGray's Avatar
 

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How Many Here Using Lipinski L707?

Just trying to get a feel for how many of you are using L707's for mastering. I've tried some B&W802D's recently but I'm not 100% sold on them. Unfortunately I can't easily audition the L707's unless I purchase them first. So any comments from people who have tried them out or currently use them (looking for pros & cons) are very welcome.

Matt
Old 6th September 2007
  #2
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Matt -
I love my B&W N802's and heartily recommend them. It did take me a number of months of adjusting room treatments and speaker positioning (including height & foundation - getting the Sound Anchor stands in made an enormous difference for me) before they were "right" though. Obviously having a good amp that matches them well (i.e. Pass Labs X250) is critical also.

As far as Lipinski 707's - there are a number of folks like Bob Katz and Alan Silverman who indeed use them for their mastering studios- but be aware that you will need a subwoofer with them to achieve anything near full frequency.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 7th September 2007
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cellotron View Post
Matt -
I love my B&W N802's and heartily recommend them. It did take me a number of months of adjusting room treatments and speaker positioning (including height & foundation - getting the Sound Anchor stands in made an enormous difference for me) before they were "right" though. Obviously having a good amp that matches them well (i.e. Pass Labs X250) is critical also.

As far as Lipinski 707's - there are a number of folks like Bob Katz and Alan Silverman who indeed use them for their mastering studios- but be aware that you will need a subwoofer with them to achieve anything near full frequency.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
One of the things that concern me regarding 802's is that they were designed for a living room where one would sit on a couch & they would be at the right listening height unencumbered by studio furniture. The configuration of the low drivers makes it difficult to position them correctly when you put a mastering desk in front of them. To me getting stands or marble/concrete to build them up to the right height seems like a compromise as one of the lower drivers will still be shooting directly into the desk. Also I think a sub would still be required for the 802's to make them reach full range status also (as Brad Blackwood uses).

The other thing I didn't like about the 802's was the cabinet design, it felt like the highs & mids were coming from a different source to the low end, like they didn't blend evenly with the lows. Of course the advantage of the tweeter & mid driver being in a domed capsule on top is that it creates a great stereo image & extends well beyond the physical edges of the speakers themselves. But I'm not sure if that's to the compromise of the design as a whole or whether this is just an approach that would take some time getting used to. On my first listen I felt like I was listening to 2 different sources playing together. I know many ME's have 802's & are doing great work with them, I've just got to pick what is going to be right for my needs.

In fairness to the 802D's I only got to audition them in a hi-fi shop which wasn't acoustically treated. I did take my X250 in with me though so I did get that luxury, the bottom end didn't feel right to me, but I'm almost 100% sure this was due to the room I heard them in, rather then the speakers themselves. I couldn't feel the air moving or the transient punch from the kick drum that I was hoping for.

I have a Pass Labs X250 & a Velodyne DD12 sub already, so either way I decide to go I think I am well catered for. If I did go Lipinski I'd probably get a 2nd sub to run in stereo & this would still work out cheaper then 802s. Also there is a chance I could be doing some surround work in the near future so expanding on L707's or getting L505's for the rears & another L707 for the centre channel could be quite an effective set up.

I'm curious to hear comments from people who have tried L707's or currently use them. How do they compare to B&Ws, Duntechs or Dunlavys?

Matt
Old 7th September 2007
  #4
Hi Matthew,

i had a listen once to some 800 with a Classe amp and had the same feelings about the cabinet, i alos felt them a bit too velvety for me in the high.
a friend have some Matrix 3 in his studio and the positioning is right only because they are on 20" stands and very far from the desk (his room is huge ....)

i thought to the lipinsky too but they're not distributed in belgium so i ended up with some PMC IB2S wich sound really awesome, perhaps too revealing for some N800 users, but i like this, even little default jump in your face and i think it's nice for mastering at least for me.
i heard that the 707 was a bit the same on this point.... audio microscope....

the interesting point with the IB2S and one of the reason i've chosed them is that they go down to 25hz without sub (-5db), what is fairly enough for my room.

i think at this point you've got to figure for yourself how you want the listening to be in your room, for you, and for your clients, in an analytic way, or in a more pleasing way .

my 2c
Old 7th September 2007
  #5
Gear Head
 

We do in both of our studios.
The L-707/L-150 (L-150G in the bigger room) were added to Duntechs Crown Prince and Sovereigns 2001. After a while the Duns are only used for client impression anymore. dfegad
The masters turn out translating better that ever and also the occasional mix session gives me results that I could live without mastering these...

Sorry to hear that there is no distribution in Belgium, please contact me if there is need for more information as we are the distributor in Germany.

We are distributing Lipinski and Mytek gear cause we are friends and we like and use the gear!

Andreas

Masterlab - Masteringstudios
Old 7th September 2007
  #6
Thanks Andreas
i'll come to visit you next time i come to berlin


Fred
Old 7th September 2007
  #7
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Fred, please do!
Old 7th September 2007
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by masterlab View Post
We do in both of our studios.
The L-707/L-150 (L-150G in the bigger room) were added to Duntechs Crown Prince and Sovereigns 2001. After a while the Duns are only used for client impression anymore. dfegad
The masters turn out translating better that ever and also the occasional mix session gives me results that I could live without mastering these...

Sorry to hear that there is no distribution in Belgium, please contact me if there is need for more information as we are the distributor in Germany.

We are distributing Lipinski and Mytek gear cause we are friends and we like and use the gear!

Andreas

Masterlab - Masteringstudios
Thanks for the feedback Andreas, that's very interesting to know that you prefer to work on the L707's instead of the Duntechs & that they give you better translation. Out of curiosity how big is the room with the Sovereigns? I've heard the room needs to be quite large for these to sound right.

The more comments I've been reading about L707's from other users I trust, the more I'm thinking they will be the right monitor for me.

Any other users care to share their experiences?
Old 9th September 2007
  #9
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Thomas Grubb's Avatar
 

Hi Matt,

I've had a pair of 707s for the past couple of months, and I've been most impressed by them. The frequency repsonse seems seamless throughout the spectrum - there is certainly nothing lacking or sticking out - and the imaging is incredible.

While I mainly record and mix classical music, I've been listening to some of the Depeche Mode SACD re-releases and have been amazed at how open the dynamic certainly the earlier ones are (more analogue intruments and mixing to analogue rather than digital?).

Bass is fine in my smaller room, though I have one subwoofer at a low level which fills out the bottom. I had stress finding an amp, and when I can will probably go with the Lipinski 301s, but for the moment I find my Pioneer 80w/ch seems to work well - again, I don't have a large room to fill.

Before buying them, I went around with a friend an auditioned quite a number of different speakers, including 802s with Classe amps, and found none that were really convincing.

Probably punk music is not the style to be mastering on the Lipinskis, but I think you'll find them great for most other styles. There is also a 30-day return policy.

Cheers,
Tom

PS I think they are now called Microscope Monitors...for good reason!
Old 10th September 2007
  #10
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Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

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Is there some reason you aren't considering Duntechs since you are in Australia where they are still sold?
Old 10th September 2007
  #11
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MattGray's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Is there some reason you aren't considering Duntechs since you are in Australia where they are still sold?
Hi Bob, yes I have considered Duntechs, at the moment the only models that would suit my current room would be their new DSM-15, but if I do move to a new larger room (which might be happening soon) they may be a bit underpowered. The Sovereigns would obviously be great in a large room, but not my current room & a lot of people have said that the room has to be just right for them to sound their best. It's also not an easy task to get them up from Melbourne to audition in my room.

Matt
Old 10th September 2007
  #12
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I've heard Sovereigns sound absolutely great in traditional mastering closets such as Bob Ludwig's old one at Masterdisk in New York.

My work room here at home is pretty tiny, the Sovereigns need to be in the corners and my back is right against the wall. It's worst case and the sweet spot is tiny yet I'd STILL take the Sovereigns over almost anything else. A bigger room like mine back in California would be great but a lesser monitor would be worse than a small room. I just can't share the sweet spot with a client.
Old 10th September 2007
  #13
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
I've heard Sovereigns sound absolutely great in traditional mastering closets such as Bob Ludwig's old one at Masterdisk in New York.

My work room here at home is pretty tiny, the Sovereigns need to be in the corners and my back is right against the wall. It's worst case and the sweet spot is tiny yet I'd STILL take the Sovereigns over almost anything else. A bigger room like mine back in California would be great but a lesser monitor would be worse than a small room. I just can't share the sweet spot with a client.
In the beginning I had a love-hate relationship with my 707's because they are so revealing. But it turned out that even the smallest dip in the bass response due to room irregularities does not help with these "revealing" loudspeakers. Once I optimized the trapping and put in a pair of JL Audio Fathom F112 subwoofers now I LOVE my system. And it's still revealing, but far more musical. Pity that Bob Olhssohn came in to hear the penultimate iteration, because I'd say now my system is comparable to ANYTHING else I've heard in any mastering or audiophile listening room.
Old 10th September 2007
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob katz View Post
I'd say now my system is comparable to ANYTHING else I've heard in any mastering or audiophile listening room.
I guess most of us could say that about our rooms!

Regards,
Bruce
Old 10th September 2007
  #15
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSD_Mastering View Post
I guess most of us could say that about our rooms!

Regards,
Bruce
Really? Not for 25-30 years in the business would I have dared to make that claim until about 6 months ago, finally I achieved an A+ room.... I always felt it was good, for the last three years an A, and prior to that a B+ (DC hates that I use letter grades).

BK
Old 10th September 2007
  #16
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MattGray's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
I've heard Sovereigns sound absolutely great in traditional mastering closets such as Bob Ludwig's old one at Masterdisk in New York.

My work room here at home is pretty tiny, the Sovereigns need to be in the corners and my back is right against the wall. It's worst case and the sweet spot is tiny yet I'd STILL take the Sovereigns over almost anything else. A bigger room like mine back in California would be great but a lesser monitor would be worse than a small room. I just can't share the sweet spot with a client.
Hey Bob O, did you read Andreas post towards the top of this thread? I found it very interesting that he has Duntech Princes & Sovereigns along with Lipinski L-707's & he finds that he hardly ever refers to the Dun's anymore in favour of the Lipinski's. Perhaps it's time you auditioned some in your smaller room?

I think I'm going to get a set in soon...

Matt
Old 10th September 2007
  #17
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
I've heard Sovereigns sound absolutely great in traditional mastering closets such as Bob Ludwig's old one at Masterdisk in New York.

My work room here at home is pretty tiny, the Sovereigns need to be in the corners and my back is right against the wall. It's worst case and the sweet spot is tiny yet I'd STILL take the Sovereigns over almost anything else. A bigger room like mine back in California would be great but a lesser monitor would be worse than a small room. I just can't share the sweet spot with a client.
This was the way we were working as well, Sovereigns almost in the corners, my chair against the backwall, client couch in front of me. There was no other possibility with the Duns in our 40qm room (430.56sq feet).
But GAS made me change my setup to a SterlingModular Plan E with the client sitting behind me and I have not regretted it yet.
Working is so much easier, there was always a problem when 2 clients where sitting on the couch their heads between the tweeters of the Duns and myself...
Well sweetspot... hmm yeah, PLEASE DON'T MOVE YOUR HEAD!!! Made me crazy!

To Bob O. if you ever want to go a step further, take listen on the Lipinskis. Adjusting from your work on Duns is totally easy and believe me. translation is way better.

Especially the bass response is tunable to your room (subwoofer and subamp), the Duns are the way they are, they work or they don't.
I won't make claims like Bob K. but our room is in one of the most famous studio places you can find in Germany, we had Chris Muth in last year and he was sooo impressed by the solid building and great acoustics in our rooms.
For a look onto the area: FUNKHAUS BERLIN NALEPASTRASSE

Cheers

-a-
Old 11th September 2007
  #18
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I have heard the Lipinski's within a half hour of hearing the same material here although not in the same room. They certainly are better than most but I didn't hear anything than made me consider switching. For example they weren't nearly as sensitive to breath pops.

I agree they may not be the best thing for attended sessions unless you have a pretty big room but I do my full on sessions at Georgetown Masters with the Novas and just my preparation and "homework" here at the house.

The Novas are really superb. Denny went that route so the same speakers could be used in the surround room back when it looked like Duntech was about to go away.
Old 11th September 2007
  #19
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
I have heard the Lipinski's within a half hour of hearing the same material here although not in the same room. They certainly are better than most but I didn't hear anything than made me consider switching. For example they weren't nearly as sensitive to breath pops.
With a well-aligned subwoofer I wager that factor would be equal, Bob O between the Duns and the Lipinskis. I agree that L707's alone are bad monitors for judging bass problems! I don't consider an L707 without a subwoofer to be a satisfactory mastering monitor anyway.

In addition, room acoustics, e.g., standing waves, are a very strong factor on the audibility of breath pops. If there's a 1 dB dip at the listening position at, say, 60 Hz due to a standing wave, breath pops will be less audible in ANY room, regardless of the monitors used.

BK
Old 11th September 2007
  #20
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattGray View Post

I have a Pass Labs X250 & a Velodyne DD12 sub already
Matt

Dear Matt: Be sure to get a second DD12 in order to have accurate bass. Here are four reasons why every mastering engineer who needs subwoofers needs a pair of them!!!

Stereo subwoofers avoid the compromise of a
mono subwoofer for four reasons:
• Stereo subwoofers provide a greater sense of
envelopment than a single woofer, even when
reproducing mono material. There is also evidence
that subwoofers can be localized to some degree.
• Stereo subwoofers help create the same effect as
two full-range loudspeakers.
• Stereo or multiple subwoofers can average out and
help to reduce nodal buildup in the room.
• Frequency response is always a compromise with a
mono sub, it will never be correct for all sources. This
is because low frequency levels are different when
combined electrically as opposed to acoustically (in
the room). For example, two channels of a center-located
in-phase bass instrument combined into a
single (mono) subwoofer, results in a 6 dB increase,
whereas with two separate subwoofers, the sum is
between 3 and 6 dB depending on room acoustics and
the distance between the speakers. If only a single
(mono) subwoofer is used, I suggest lowering the
sub level about 1.5 dB below the individual channel
measurement. Then bass instruments panned in the
center will only sound a little loud, and uncorrelated
bass information or bass instruments panned to one
side will sound a little low. It's a compromise, but probably the best one, unless you are primarily doing dance music with mono bass drums and bass.
Old 11th September 2007
  #21
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please show me the graphs of a real-world room with a total flat response below < 200Hz ... I don't think a masteringroom like that exists ... or I've never "seen" it

Matt you're pretty close working to you''re speakers right now if i'm correct ... are you planning on working with more distance ....

I.m about 3 meters away from my nautilus .. but can see the two woofers pretty well and hear them OK ...

it was a hard time switching speakers/room .. took me about 8 weeks .. be prepared for some mind-trouble ... still not 100% confident .. but always mention the new room/speakers to my clients.

love to hear the volume/size of the 800 when working on even low-level ( 70-80 dB ) .. the 707 are a bit small to my taste .. but I'm in my bigger is better mood ..... I wish I had bought the 707 before lifting the 125KG/800 up in my room ....

enjoy ...
Old 11th September 2007
  #22
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by inlinenl View Post
please show me the graphs of a real-world room with a total flat response below < 200Hz ... I don't think a masteringroom like that exists ... or I've never "seen" it
Absolutely! You're right. It's a matter of degree, always. But at some point in the progress of a good room-----we get the peaks and dips manageable enough so that despite that they are still measurable, the room becomes extremely listenable and the bass end extremely even with all good sources that we can play. If you were to look at the 1.8 Hz resolution graph of the bottom end response in my room it's been reduced to about + or - 4 or 6 dB! You'd think this is bad, eh? Should have seen the measurements before we started trapping, and optimizing speaker position.

But not so bad on a 12th octave basis or 6th octave, the general tendency is flat, there are no longer any single notes that stand out or are missing, and I can equalize the bottom end with confidence.

BK
Old 11th September 2007
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob katz View Post
Absolutely! You're right. It's a matter of degree, always. But at some point in the progress of a good room-----we get the peaks and dips manageable enough so that despite that they are still measurable, the room becomes extremely listenable and the bass end extremely even with all good sources that we can play. If you were to look at the 1.8 Hz resolution graph of the bottom end response in my room it's been reduced to about + or - 4 or 6 dB! You'd think this is bad, eh? Should have seen the measurements before we started trapping, and optimizing speaker position.

BK
hello Bob, You don't hear me say that's bad ......... that's a nice/great response .. mine came between the same values just about .... for above 100 Hz it was all between =/- 4dB and lower as 100 HZ they came to max +/- 7 dB ...

I asked a few weeks back if there were any studio's willling to share the graphs of their rooms ... but no response ... so hearing you're values is interresting .....

the interaction between the speakers and the room is okay for now .... Right now i'm having some QRD diffusors to play with .... I would love to move the speakers a bit closer to each-other and a bit more close .. but I need 3 more guys to help .... that would be more easy with the Lipinski
Old 12th September 2007
  #24
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MattGray's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob katz View Post
Dear Matt: Be sure to get a second DD12 in order to have accurate bass. Here are four reasons why every mastering engineer who needs subwoofers needs a pair of them!!!
Yes thanks Bob, I'm certainly looking into the 2nd DD12, I want a nice even response in the lows...

Edit....

Just bought another DD12, so it's on the way
Old 12th September 2007
  #25
Gear Head
 

sweet spot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by masterlab View Post
Well sweetspot... hmm yeah, PLEASE DON'T MOVE YOUR HEAD!!! Made me crazy!
Think of two perfect pulses. They will sum correctly(to create a phantom image) at ONE place only! So the narrow sweetspot is a property of your recording (it is mono ...or two channel mono) and not a property of your speaker. The more time smear the speaker has the "wider" (less defined) the "sweet spot" is. <this is not a good thing btw.
I'm sure you have experienced that putting mono into a box and getting two cables out with some "reverb" added to the signal doesn't really help - it will still collapse when you do the head-moving-test on great speakers.
So if you want a wider sweetspot with great speakers you need STEREO recordings
If you do have stereo and very time accurate speakers THEN we can start to talk about off-axis porperties.
Regarding Lipinskis - they are designed on the same theory as Dunlavy's and Duntech's but they do need a sub and this does not follow the same design criteria (steeper x-over slopes) but for a large part the "pulse perfect" issue is almost invalid at lower frequencies because of the wavelenghts involved.

Regards
H
Old 17th September 2007
  #26
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Well decisions have been made, the following has been ordered...

2 x Lipinski L-707 in black finish which should look more rock (powered by a Pass Labs X250)
2 x Lipinski L-360 (not the powered versions)
2 x Velodyne DD12 (already own one, 2nd ordered)
2 x Duntech Marquis (got these very cheap from Melbourne & they are heading straight to Duntech for a complete new set of drivers & crossover mods).

Should give me some great monitoring options!

for sale soon... Dynaudio BM6A

Matt
Old 17th September 2007
  #27
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inlinenl's Avatar
 

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Matt Have fun !!!! you made up you're mind , nice amp ( blue lights ) ... hope the sound wicked and sharp
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