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Anyone here avoiding the L2? Dynamics Plugins
Old 16th April 2011
  #61
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Cellotron's Avatar
 

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lol that some people are actually so worried about what happens to the least significant bits in this situation - as if the type of dither you choose to use - or even a single truncation from 48bit to 24bit - would make even any kind of meaningful change relative to what you're actually doing to the MOST significant bits by putting them through the L2 in the first place!!

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 16th April 2011
  #62
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L2 iworks just fine...I have also heard hardware units that I think are harsh...what's up with that I wonder...besides that though, it's a good one IMO.
Old 16th April 2011
  #63
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greggybud's Avatar
I believe I read the L-2 hardware and L-2 software should null according to Waves.
Old 16th April 2011
  #64
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24-96 Mastering's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by greggybud View Post
I find this interesting. With the above mentioned parameters, you can actually detect a "sound?" If I understand you correctly, it IS limiting up to 1.0db on the input to your DAW?

The only time I have noticed a L-2 sound is when it's being pushed too far.
FWIW, I sometimes use the L2 for less than 0.5 dB or of limiting (only catching resampling overshoot from oversampled clipping or limiting, for example) and even in that limited capacity, the choice of limiter can have a distinctive impact on sound.
Old 16th April 2011
  #65
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I still use the hardware L2 on occasion.
Old 16th April 2011
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greggybud View Post
I believe I read the L-2 hardware and L-2 software should null according to Waves.
Well...I'm just suggesting ther may be issues with some of the hardware pieces...however I think they are a good piece...and null with software...ummm well...they work differently the hardware performs AD/DA or just AD...they are different.
Old 16th April 2011
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlueberryRoom View Post
Well...I'm just suggesting ther may be issues with some of the hardware pieces...however I think they are a good piece...and null with software...ummm well...they work differently the hardware performs AD/DA or just AD...they are different.
You can run the L2 in D-D mode, no conversion.
Old 16th April 2011
  #68
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For the most part the L2 for me these days is there to set a ceiling (setting anywhere between 0.3 - 0.5) just to keep things tidy.......had mine since October 2000 and apart from a blown cap 5 years ago it has served us faithfully.....
Old 16th April 2011
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackthebear View Post
For the most part the L2 for me these days is there to set a ceiling (setting anywhere between 0.3 - 0.5) just to keep things tidy.......had mine since October 2000 and apart from a blown cap 5 years ago it has served us faithfully.....
JTB!

Although I'm generally using the PSP Xenon in soundBlade these days, I wouldn't hesitate to use the L2 if needed. Plenty of great peeps with great ears still keeping it in their chain.

Props, JT
Old 16th April 2011
  #70
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Cellotron's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
JTB!

Although I'm generally using the PSP Xenon in soundBlade these days, I wouldn't hesitate to use the L2 if needed. Plenty of great peeps with great ears still keeping it in their chain.
Absolutely - while I definitely have my preferences for other tools over the L2 these days - got to agree that a number of great sounding albums have had the L2 used in the mastering chain on them.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 16th April 2011
  #71
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Waves recommends using Type 1 dither even when limiting at 24 bits or else it truncates to a 24 bit output... according to their manual. The dither is actually never "bypassed" apparently. This may not seem like a big deal to most, but I don't like to dither twice and I don't like to truncate to 24 bits either. Other than that, there's many more advantages that I think Ozone has over the L2... even their dither options is better.
Old 17th April 2011
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 24-96 Mastering View Post
FWIW, I sometimes use the L2 for less than 0.5 dB or of limiting (only catching resampling overshoot from oversampled clipping or limiting, for example) and even in that limited capacity, the choice of limiter can have a distinctive impact on sound.
Robin you are saying it is the 0.5dB of limiting that you can hear correct? You are not saying it's the L-2 simply being included in the signal chain correct?

If it is being used at 0.5 for mostly catching the occasional overshoot or clip, can you give an example of the distinctive impact on the sound? Would this be for example a difference in sharp percussive hits in the high end?

I feel, compared to most on this forum, my hearing has been diminished because to me with these settings the L-2 sounds very transparent. I would love to do a blind A/B test with these parameters, but I honestly don't think I would detect any difference.
Old 17th April 2011
  #73
Gear Nut
 

I avoid the L2. Very brutal sounding limiter. Instead I use my own limiter. Which is a GPL opensource limiter, tuned to my own tastes.
Old 17th April 2011
  #74
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24-96 Mastering's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by greggybud View Post
Robin you are saying it is the 0.5dB of limiting that you can hear correct?
Yes.

Quote:
If it is being used at 0.5 for mostly catching the occasional overshoot or clip
The case I was describing was not using the L2 to catch an occasional peak of an untouched, naturally dynamic signal, but to catch the frequent overshoot from resampling a clipped/limited signal.

Quote:
can you give an example of the distinctive impact on the sound? Would this be for example a difference in sharp percussive hits in the high end?
Depends on the material, but yes, it can have an impact on how sharp / soft / punchy transients and percussive elements feel. It can also make a difference in perceived overall tone, if the signal is dense enough.


Quote:
I feel, compared to most on this forum, my hearing has been diminished because to me with these settings the L-2 sounds very transparent. I would love to do a blind A/B test with these parameters, but I honestly don't think I would detect any difference.
I have made 3 different samples for you to hear this yourself, attached to this post. The difference between them is how the 0.3-0.5 dB resampling overshoot (from a previously clipped signal) is handled.

Listen to the samples and compare difference in overall aggressiveness, transient sharpness/softness, drum impact and tone of the hi hat, for example, should be quite apparent. This should show that a GR number alone doesn't really tell the full story; impact on sound (or transparency) depends very much on the nature of the incoming signal, and how it has been handled before the limiter is hit.
Attached Files

sample1.wav (2.78 MB, 53 views)

sample2.wav (2.78 MB, 69 views)

sample3.wav (2.78 MB, 183 views)

Old 17th April 2011
  #75
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Well Robin made his effort ..

All I want to say is that I "hear" the unit when it's engaged even running Digital in/out ... even when just being my gatekeeper ... it's not a BAD thing I 'hear' a unit .. I find it "transparent" enough to be doing that part of the job for me ...
some genres can take more of it, on others I try to avoid using it ... it all just depends ...

I think of a mastering_room and it's gear like a personal microscope , I know it inside out and I can see/hear the things I do pretty radical/detailed ... It could be a psycho thing that I hear "my L2 sheen" but it's there for me ...

I'm not the guy that want files/gear to NULL out when analyzed ...I focus more on the impact/song emotion / listening etc. etc.

I don't think an L2 is preventing me from delivering decent/great masters ... much more trouble before that ...
Old 17th April 2011
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Blackwood View Post
You can run the L2 in D-D mode, no conversion.
right...forgot about that...
Old 17th April 2011
  #77
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Cellotron's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by inlinenl View Post
Well Robin made his effort ..

All I want to say is that I "hear" the unit when it's engaged even running Digital in/out ... even when just being my gatekeeper ... it's not a BAD thing I 'hear' a unit .. I find it "transparent" enough to be doing that part of the job for me ...
some genres can take more of it, on others I try to avoid using it ... it all just depends ...

I think of a mastering_room and it's gear like a personal microscope , I know it inside out and I can see/hear the things I do pretty radical/detailed ... It could be a psycho thing that I hear "my L2 sheen" but it's there for me ...

I'm not the guy that want files/gear to NULL out when analyzed ...I focus more on the impact/song emotion / listening etc. etc.

I don't think an L2 is preventing me form delivering decent/great masters ... much more trouble before that ...
thumbsup
Nice post - and definitely agree.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 17th April 2011
  #78
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Bonati's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Blackwood View Post
You can run the L2 in D-D mode, no conversion.
This is what I do. The L2 is used here on regular basis, usually no more than 1.5dB of gain reduction at the absolute most. Honestly I've never even thought to experiment with the A/D converters. I think I forgot there was an analog stage.

The L2 is a whipping boy just like the TC Finalizer. More due to terrible/uninformed operator decisions rather than any intrinsic "bad sound". People misuse it, destroy records with it, and then blame it. Used conservatively it still performs well and is a valuable piece to own.
Old 17th April 2011
  #79
Gear Head
 

I´m working itb mixing at -10

Sometimes I use a gain plug (logic9) to get it a bit louder before the limiter, so I don´t need to hit it so hard.

Is this a big no-no??
Old 18th April 2011
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aroth View Post
I´m working itb mixing at -10

Sometimes I use a gain plug (logic9) to get it a bit louder before the limiter, so I don´t need to hit it so hard.

Is this a big no-no??
Nope. Clipping a digital gain stage prior to a final limiter is in fact a somewhat common method to increase average loudness at mastering these days.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 18th April 2011
  #81
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Gary Ladd's Avatar
So many choices these days, including the L2
Old 18th April 2011
  #82
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greggybud's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonati View Post
The L2 is a whipping boy just like the TC Finalizer. More due to terrible/uninformed operator decisions rather than any intrinsic "bad sound". People misuse it, destroy records with it, and then blame it. Used conservatively it still performs well and is a valuable piece to own.
This is what I have been saying for years. When the L-2 (software) was released, there wasn't much competition at that price point. And the price was low enough for it to become popular not only in studios, but bedrooms too. Used properly without abuse I think the L-2 is just fine. But so are other tools when used with a bit of knowledge in a good sonic environment.

Robin, thanks for the comparison. I'll have to transfer them tonight.
Old 18th April 2011
  #83
I use L2 H or PL2, having a limiter before your A/D helps you control the peaks in a soft way, sometimes I add a Voxengo in the box just for a point of character or to correct a 0.1 db peak.
Old 22nd April 2011
  #84
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I have never liked the L2, one thing I picked up from a well known mastering guy here in Sweden was to use the Waves LinMB plug and bypass every band, then it works like a Bricklimiter, and that does the trick for me... it prevserves the transients, punchiness MUCH better than the L2, and you`ll get louder mixes
Old 24th April 2011
  #85
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I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that the LinMB just plain clips once it gets to 0db, regardless of how many bands are activated?
Old 24th April 2011
  #86
Quote:
I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that the LinMB just plain clips once it gets to 0db, regardless of how many bands are activated?
LinMB does clip regardless.
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