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Truth in metering? Utility Plugins
Old 19th September 2007
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
With 24-bit converters things like resolution is never an issue - on the other hand lack of resolution becomes an issue because of lack of understanding about how digital sampling works. If engineers actually understood the Nyquist theorem and all the issues that is covered by his simple law we would not have had these issues.H

Nyquist theorem?????? There's a million engineers out there that don't even know what a S.O.L is...........no understanding of analogue level, no idea whatsoever of digital......... we are going back instead of moving forward.

Record companies.....forget it..........
Old 19th September 2007
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riccardo View Post
Nyquist theorem?????? There's a million engineers out there that don't even know what a S.O.L is...........no understanding of analogue level, no idea whatsoever of digital......... we are going back instead of moving forward.
If we are to put the finger on something: who is, in your opinion, to "blame" for the lack of knowledge about the equipment they are operating?

Is it the audio engineering schools? the cheap equipment? the fact that user interfaces have taken the focus away from the actual sound? what explains that top sellers, often recorded and mastered by well known people in big studios sound worse than what someone with a firewire audio interface can do? Is it too much of a mixup between the responsibilities of a producer and recording engineer? ..the list is long...

Regards
H
Old 19th September 2007
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
If we are to put the finger on something: who is, in your opinion, to "blame" for the lack of knowledge about the equipment they are operating
H
Have you realised we live in a society where "I want it and want it now" rules?

For many (too many) people knowledge equals "tell me how to do that in 2 seconds"

There is a difference between the equipment and software being available to the masses at a low cost and the craft. We are all happy for the democratization of the medium so to speak. The fact that the tools are more accessible doesn't mean the theory (and the practice) needed to use the tools is irrelevant.

Ready made "everything" fast paced no depth society (and many of its people)
That is to blame IMHO
Old 19th September 2007
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
what explains that top sellers, often recorded and mastered by well known people in big studios sound worse than what someone with a firewire audio interface can do? H
That has been very rarely the case in my personal opinion. Most of the top people I have had the pleasure (or luck) of working with, assisting or watching them working consistently produced top results even under pressure (from labels and so called A&Rs)
Old 21st September 2007
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
Ideally the ME should ask for a remix with correct levels. (Maybe if the record companies would get repeated requests for expensive remixes of everything they would get the point?)

One of the problems is of course that a lot of people expect their MIX (!)to sound as f'ed up as the most horribly clipped store-bought CD they could find. Ideally, at this point, the mix should probably be 15dB softer than that. With 24-bit converters things like resolution is never an issue - on the other hand lack of resolution becomes an issue because of lack of understanding about how digital sampling works. If engineers actually understood the Nyquist theorem and all the issues that is covered by his simple law we would not have had these issues.

Tech Library the documents under this heading (all of them) gives a short introduction to the subject and it also includes measurements of some CD players.

Regards
H
You know, I had a run in with the first ever ME I encountered on the first tracks I ever mixed commercially - because they were not decoding the Dolby correctly and it was consequently somewhat compressed and HF heavy. They achieved this by drilling holes in the Dolby A front panel and tweaking the internal trimmers with permanently installed controls :-(
In the coarse of the protracted argument the boss showed up and informed me this was a 'house style' and since this was run by the record company (CBS) I had absolutely no choice. But I insisted that the Dolby be set correctly and actually did it myself - leaving flustered and shocked but happy. However when the disc came out they had simply re-done it their way after I had left :-(
This was my rude awakening to the idea that engineers, producers and even artists actually had limited control of their product - and if you were able to, finding a good mastering house was absolutely crucial because you simply could not avoid them (as this was in the days of vinyl). We were in fact able to do this with lesser 'famous' artists working with more local companies - and then it was a pure pleasure to work with them and receive what they had done :-( They several times rescued me from bad or too hot and toppy mixes that were done in the wee small hours under the false enthusiasm of beer and other 'substances' :-)
Old 21st September 2007
  #66
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TL Master Meter

Intrigued by this post, at least the part about at least knowing when one is creating intersample peaks, I downloaded the TL Master Meter.

I found that most modern masters have them, including some of my own. However, I encountered one competitively loud master that didn't have any so I thought it might be educational to experiment with my own masters to see why some have it and some don't.

I own the relatively expensive Spectra-Foo and am surprised that they do not offer this function so I am considering purchasing TL Master Meter.

However, at $150. US, it is a relatively expensive one trick pony.

Does anyone know of a less expensive one that works in the Pro Tools or the Mac OS?
Old 21st September 2007
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riccardo View Post
Have you realised we live in a society where "I want it and want it now" rules?

For many (too many) people knowledge equals "tell me how to do that in 2 seconds"

There is a difference between the equipment and software being available to the masses at a low cost and the craft. We are all happy for the democratization of the medium so to speak. The fact that the tools are more accessible doesn't mean the theory (and the practice) needed to use the tools is irrelevant.

Ready made "everything" fast paced no depth society (and many of its people)
That is to blame IMHO
Wise words & keen observations Ric.

Hence HairBall and L3-16 software "tools" ... instant faux mastering!

Chris Athens also said something about post modern society being addicted to constant over stimulation.... 500 channels on tv, Google for a memory bank, iPods wit 10,000 songs.

The antidote: go into your sound proof studio, close the door, turn down the lights, and sit there for 20 minutes withs eyes closed, in total silence, left your mind drift aimlessly.

JT
Old 21st September 2007
  #68
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Krehm View Post
Intrigued by this post, at least the part about at least knowing when one is creating intersample peaks, I downloaded the TL Master Meter.

I found that most modern masters have them, including some of my own. However, I encountered one competitively loud master that didn't have any so I thought it might be educational to experiment with my own masters to see why some have it and some don't.

I own the relatively expensive Spectra-Foo and am surprised that they do not offer this function so I am considering purchasing TL Master Meter.

However, at $150. US, it is a relatively expensive one trick pony.

Does anyone know of a less expensive one that works in the Pro Tools or the Mac OS?
I agree that Foo should add oversampled metering! I'll put that in as a suggestion to them. But right now they are overloaded with development on several new products, so don't hold your breath.

Though you have insisted on a Mac solution, it might even be cheaper to even build a cheap PC, and put in an RME card. Digicheck is the bees knees! Add Wavelab and you have a fancy 24 bit tape recorder!
Old 22nd September 2007
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob katz View Post
I agree that Foo should add oversampled metering! I'll put that in as a suggestion to them. But right now they are overloaded with development on several new products, so don't hold your breath.

Though you have insisted on a Mac solution, it might even be cheaper to even build a cheap PC, and put in an RME card. Digicheck is the bees knees! Add Wavelab and you have a fancy 24 bit tape recorder!
Good suggestion, about the fancy 24 bit tape recorder. I've been thinking about that for quite a while.

Do you know of any way that WL, running on a PC, could be locked to PTs on the Mac so I could use reference markers after a track is mastered?

In other words, drop in ref. markers on the mix, master a song using PTs to play out to the analog loop, record to WL in PC, mute mix in PTs and continue to use the same markers but triggering the master audio in WL.

I know this is possible in Sequoia (PC) using two sound cards but the above solution is a less expensive plus I don't have to replace my current Mac or buy an Intel Mac.

Also, you mentioned Digitech and oversampling meters. Is that the same as intersampling meters?

Thanks,
Old 22nd September 2007
  #70
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Krehm View Post
Good suggestion, about the fancy 24 bit tape recorder. I've been thinking about that for quite a while.

Do you know of any way that WL, running on a PC, could be locked to PTs on the Mac so I could use reference markers after a track is mastered?
Good question, Andy. No, you can't do that because PT's markers would not be the same as Wavelab's. But the next best thing would be to lock Wavelab to timecode from PT and then note the timecodes of the markers you had used in PT and manually put them in Wavelab at those locations.

The only way you could do better than that would be to integrate two Sequoias or two SADiEs because the marker format is the same.

I accomplish similar things in various ways, but note that I ONLY use Wavelab as a tape recorder, I never bothered to learn its PQ coding facilities or anything else about it since I'm more familiar with SADiE and SADiE's ergonomics are far superior.

The only reason I need Wavelab at all is if SADiE is not at 44.1K (an increasing occurence) and I marked times, say, in the 96 K edl, I note the times of its markers or print them out. I can also keep a list of the source clips on the right hand screen of SADiE. After Wavelab captures the 44.1 K result, I bring the capture files into SADiE make a new EDL at 44.1K, and put markers in for PQ coding. Usually the waveform makes finding the spot a cinch, plus I have the original 96K EDL in a text screen on the right if the client has special requests for segues, etc.
Old 26th September 2007
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
Wise words & keen observations Ric.

Hence HairBall and L3-16 software "tools" ... instant faux mastering!

Chris Athens also said something about post modern society being addicted to constant over stimulation.... 500 channels on tv, Google for a memory bank, iPods wit 10,000 songs.

The antidote: go into your sound proof studio, close the door, turn down the lights, and sit there for 20 minutes withs eyes closed, in total silence, left your mind drift aimlessly.

JT
I agree - no amount of tools - software or hardware, however good will honestly replace knowledge and art in any area of our business. There is far too great a tendency for marketing people to push for simplistic 'one function, one sound, one fix' solutions because they see any new object however naive as a marketable entity - the more the better etc..

Of even greater worry is the 'copy culture' that's gain strength in recent times, where it always seems easier to marketing people to copy and release a 'branded' or cheaper version of something other people have conceived, than it is to spend the resources to innovate themselves. If we are not careful all innovation will be consigned to 'marketing innovation' rather than technical novelty and advance. And the only new remaining technical effort will be towards whole applications whose sole purpose is to attempt to emulate existing ones at will.

From where I sit in todays society it seems to me that the biggest single lack is that of fundamentally new ideas and concepts. As I often point out to people (often with unwelcome reaction), with all the hoo-ha and hype surrounding Ipod this and Ixxx that, the concept of portable stand alone players with headphones was actually conceived in the 1970s by an aging visionary who used to be head of Sony - it was called the Walkman.

The marketing of 'lifestyle' accessories and 'social identity' is now the biggest source of profit.
Old 2nd October 2007
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob katz View Post
Add Wavelab and you have a fancy 24 bit tape recorder!
24 bit. Tape.

Well...
Old 2nd October 2007
  #73
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrikT View Post
24 bit. Tape.

Well...
OK. "Simple and direct 24 bit recorder."
Old 2nd October 2007
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Frindle View Post
...the concept of portable stand alone players with headphones was actually conceived in the 1970s by an aging visionary who used to be head of Sony - it was called the Walkman.

The marketing of 'lifestyle' accessories and 'social identity' is now the biggest source of profit.
I remember the first time I saw a Walkman back in the day, it was on tour in a bus.

The goateed jazz trumpet player was listening to headphones, in his own little world.

My initial reaction "gee, he's listening to something really good, but none of the rest of us can hear it.

Isn't that kind of selfish?"

It was definitely a fashion statement of the day, conveying "I'm a little bit better than you, cause I have the latest cool gadget, and you don't".

Same "status gadget" attitudes continue today with the overt display of blackberries, ipods, iphones, etc... but it's no big sin, just human nature.

It constantly amazes me driving around in Austin's congested traffic, that most of the people causing the flow problems are talking on the cell phones, not pay much attention to other cars.

I even saw a guy during Friday afternoon rush hour bumper to bumper traffic, driving to the airport, with his knee on the steering wheel, holding a cell phone to his ear, operating a blackberry with the other hand. His multitasking ability was quite good, in his slick business suit, living the proverbial rat race.

That's life in the new millennium, I'm getting acclimated to it, but prefer the slower more elegant pace of days of yore.

JT
Old 2nd October 2007
  #75
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I had the early Walkman and got a lot of grief. I just liked the sounds. In the end, it's about tools that work for you. If you're happy you can make others happy ... there's nothing wrong with that.

Now driving poorly and talking on the cell? That's just wrong!
Old 12th October 2007
  #76
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Steve Berson posted this on the PSW board: Solid State Logic - X-ISM - a free metering plug from SSL with the ability to detect intersample peaks.
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