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Neve Masterpiece Image Section/ Other Devices? Dynamics Processors (HW)
Old 24th August 2007
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Neve Masterpiece Image Section/ Other Devices?

Anyone know of other analog devices that focus on imaging much like the Image section of the Masterpiece?

Old 24th August 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonicdefault View Post
Anyone know of other analog devices that focus on imaging much like the Image section of the Masterpiece?
The Portico 5014 Stereo Field Editor

Then there's the The Dangerous S&M, but it's just M/S adjustment.

Also, there are a few compressors that can adjust the M/S level like the TFPro P38 or the Elysa, but I don't know of anything else that does what the Neve pieces do in the analog domain.
Old 25th August 2007
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Thanks for the help Allen!


-SD
Old 25th August 2007
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The "Stereo Width" function on the SPL SX2 Vitalizer, while having only a single adjustable parameter, is relatively unique and can offer a widening that is not just straight Side channel gain change. You ocasionally can find these on ebay for very cheap.

Bob Katz's "K-Stereo" box offers what he calls "stereo ambience recovery" - info at Digital Domain - K-Stereo

There's an older European made box that's hard to find that I forgot the name of - think it begins with a "B" that's also an image processor.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 25th August 2007
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I appreciate that Steve! This all really helps. I've checked into the Portico, and it seems promising. But I'm still looking to see what else is out there.
Old 25th August 2007
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http://www.behringer.com/EX1/index.cfm?lang=eng

The Edison was interesting because of it's ability to control the width separately from the middle. Make something wide, then add more middle and the power/focus comes back.

The electronics could stand a lot of upgrading for mastering of coarse.
Old 26th August 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cellotron View Post
There's an older European made box that's hard to find that I forgot the name of - think it begins with a "B" that's also an image processor.Steve Berson
Bedini?
I sat in with Brian Gardner once and he used it on a track that needed something xtra.
You could hear it imediately.
Old 26th August 2007
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Originally Posted by phild View Post
Bedini?
I sat in with Brian Gardner once and he used it on a track that needed something xtra.
You could hear it imediately.
Yeah it's the Bedini B.A.S.E. - BEDINI ELECTRONICS, INC..

Phil - thanks much for saving me from staying up nights on end trying to dredge that name out of my occasionally foggy memory! Always seemed to be a cool piece on description, but has always been fairly shrouded in mystery.





Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 26th August 2007
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.... for $1250 used:

BEDINI ELECTRONICS, INC..
Old 26th August 2007
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S&M control on the Dangerous Master as well as the K-System in the Weiss DNA 1.
Old 26th August 2007
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I think Leon Zervos @ sterling is using a Beh. Edison (just from looking at the studio pics), i would bet its heavily modded though. It does have nice features.
Old 26th August 2007
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Originally Posted by lucey View Post
.... for $1250 used:

BEDINI ELECTRONICS, INC..
kind of a variation on the AYBABTU theme -
All that B.A.S.E. could belong to you!

All your base are belong to us - Official Video Site - Planet Tribes

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 26th August 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djwaudio View Post
http://www.behringer.com/EX1/index.cfm?lang=eng

The Edison was interesting because of it's ability to control the width separately from the middle. Make something wide, then add more middle and the power/focus comes back.

The electronics could stand a lot of upgrading for mastering of coarse.
Probably just a couple of resistors and chips. That's probably it.

The Behringer Edison made an impression on me three times.

Once on a session with Leon Zervos. He had all this great gear in his really really expensive board and then he had this cheap looking Behringer thing in there - which I'd never heard of.

I remember when he switched it in.... It was enuff to get my lazy ass off the couch and see what was going on! You could really hear the effect.
The used it every song for the album and it sounded great. The label was so happy.

The third time is when Behringer was blowing them out for $70 bucks a piece.
We bought 2.

Still haven't plugged them in yet.

But thanks for reminding me to this box.
Monday's session just might get some..... the lucky guy.
Old 26th August 2007
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Originally Posted by phild View Post
The Behringer Edison made an impression on me three times.
Just once for me.

About 6-8 years ago, working on a smoooth jazz record, the client brought one in.

After some intitial grumbling, found a decent setting & used it, actually sounded pretty good.

That said, these days I wouldn't want anything that said Behringer of Mackie anywhere near me.

The Bedini B.A.S.E. unit always intrigued me though, isn't it unbalanced i/o?

JT
Old 26th August 2007
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Originally Posted by sonicdefault View Post
Anyone know of other analog devices that focus on imaging much like the Image section of the Masterpiece?
Why not get a Masterpiece?
I'll be taking delivery of the first Masterpiece II next week. It has upgrades from the first unit, like outboard PS and no fans! That's what kept me from buying the first one!

Regards,
Bruce
Old 26th August 2007
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Originally Posted by DSD_Mastering View Post
Why not get a Masterpiece?
I'll be taking delivery of the first Masterpiece II next week. It has upgrades from the first unit, like outboard PS and no fans! That's what kept me from buying the first one!
Bruce -
Do you know if the Masterpiece II fixes the other things on the original that seem like very questionable design decisions to me?

Namely:
* LPF & HPF crossover frequency point options are all way too drastic for use in the vast majority of mastering applications
* unable to just engage either the LPF or HPF alone - both filters are engaged when the module is put into the signal chain
* in order to change processor signal chain you have to physically pull out modules and then put them back in the chassis - having switching relays with button control onboard would be much preferable for me to this
* one of the worst sticking points to me: input and output gain controls on continously variable pots instead of stepped switches
* numerous other parameter controls also on continuously variable pots instead of stepped switches (and no internal pink noise / tone generator to aid in side matching these)
* numerous parameter controls on relatively small and fairly "tweaky / touchy" knobs

Having said all of that - otherwise seems like the Masterpiece does offer quite an excellent assortment of analog processor options. I just never felt a need to get one as I already have a good assortment of analog processors. including the Rupert Neve designed Amek Medici eq (which I had custom modded by Dan Zellman - with all the electrolytic capacitors upgraded and the continously variable input gain pots replaced with 12 position stepped switches in 1/2dB steps going from -3dB to +2.5) which also features "sheen" & "glow" (called "warm") options.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 26th August 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cellotron View Post
kind of a variation on the AYBABTU theme -
All that B.A.S.E. could belong to you!
Ha!



Sonicdefault I resist plugging what I use, but it's worth mentioning that the Elysia Alpha has far more than M/S, adding a wet/dry blend at constant gain to both the M and S, eq tilts on the M only or S only or on both, auto fast attack and/or auto fast release on the M or S or both, and a variable sidechain on the M, S or both. The effective uses of these subtle tweaks are endless, and fast/simple to use.
Old 27th August 2007
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Another analog option that hasn't been mentioned yet are the older European "Panorama" x/y panning and m/s matrix modules by the likes of Neumann (SKX2), Siemens (W289) & Telefunken.

I've always been curious to source and rack some of these up to hear how they sound.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 27th August 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cellotron View Post
Another analog option that hasn't been mentioned yet are the older European "Panorama" x/y panning and m/s matrix modules by the likes of Neumann (SKX2), Siemens (W289) & Telefunken.

I've always been curious to source and rack some of these up to hear how they sound.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
the telefunken is fine (a bit "creamy" sounding) maybe it needs some new caps.
the LAWO is ok, you CAN hear it. maybe it also needs some new components LOL
the WSW is great. with a nice clean amp, it shines. a picture is in the "guts" thread.
If you can source some good transformers, and of course switches, it wouldn't be difficult to put together.
never tried the Siemens.
the siemens lawo and telefunken pop up in europe now and again. you'll need connectors and psu, and a rack.

I use all of these for mixing, and premastering. I think (old) mastering gear is great for mixing. (hope that doesn't bring out the tar and feathers LOL)

the portico, and masterlink caught my attention, but I found out it doesn't have an insert on the SUM channel. why is that? hmmm
Old 27th August 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cellotron View Post
Namely:
* LPF & HPF crossover frequency point options are all way too drastic for use in the vast majority of mastering applications
* unable to just engage either the LPF or HPF alone - both filters are engaged when the module is put into the signal chain
* in order to change processor signal chain you have to physically pull out modules and then put them back in the chassis - having switching relays with button control onboard would be much preferable for me to this
* one of the worst sticking points to me: input and output gain controls on continously variable pots instead of stepped switches
* numerous other parameter controls also on continuously variable pots instead of stepped switches (and no internal pink noise / tone generator to aid in side matching these)
* numerous parameter controls on relatively small and fairly "tweaky / touchy" knobs

Steve Berson
Steve,

The HPF and LPF are now individual and defeatable. I think new corner frequencies have been worked out.

I/O gain is adjustable to .1dB over a +/-12dB range - can't do that with stepped switches. The settings are stable and can be reset by eye within .2dB, so that issue never concerned me.

The controls that are small tend to be for values that are not highly sensitive, like Q. One exception is the image control, that is the subject of this thread! Still, it works fine, just need to be attentive when adjusting small moves. The compressor makeup gain is too touchy, however.

In any case, the sound is worth a few small hoops to jump through.
Old 27th August 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reptil View Post
the telefunken is fine (a bit "creamy" sounding) maybe it needs some new caps.
the LAWO is ok, you CAN hear it. maybe it also needs some new components LOL
the WSW is great. with a nice clean amp, it shines. a picture is in the "guts" thread.
If you can source some good transformers, and of course switches, it wouldn't be difficult to put together.
never tried the Siemens.
the siemens lawo and telefunken pop up in europe now and again. you'll need connectors and psu, and a rack.

I use all of these for mixing, and premastering. I think (old) mastering gear is great for mixing. (hope that doesn't bring out the tar and feathers LOL)
Reptil -
Thanks much for the info on these! Now my curiosity is increased. When you mention the WSW - do you know the module number for the one you like?

Quote:
the portico, and masterlink caught my attention, but I found out it doesn't have an insert on the SUM channel. why is that? hmmm
The Portico also garnered my interest when it first came out but taking a look at it made me feel it was pretty unsuited for mastering, as knobs are again small "tweaky" continously variable pots, making recalls very difficult, and the lack of an insert on the Middle channel really limits it's usefulness.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 27th August 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arf View Post
Steve,

The HPF and LPF are now individual and defeatable. I think new corner frequencies have been worked out.ote
Very cool to hear!

Quote:
I/O gain is adjustable to .1dB over a +/-12dB range - can't do that with stepped switches.
Except with getting rid of my Medici's input gain pots and replacing them with switches, thanks to DZ's recalibration I now have immediately recallable side matching through this stage within .01dB! Not something you can do with pots!

Quote:
The settings are stable and can be reset by eye within .2dB, so that issue never concerned me.
Yeah - I have to shoot tones through my chain once in a while to deal with side matching for something like my OCL-2's output pots (which are WAY touchier than the Masterpiece's input and output gain controls) - so I know it isn't that big of a deal really - but I want to get to replace these with switches also - as the less interruptions in work flow I can do the better for me.

Cool to hear that the pots on the Masterpieces i/o aren't really touchy though.

Quote:
The controls that are small tend to be for values that are not highly sensitive, like Q. One exception is the image control, that is the subject of this thread! Still, it works fine, just need to be attentive when adjusting small moves. The compressor makeup gain is too touchy, however.
Do you know if they have any plans for changing these few knobs in the next production run?

Quote:
In any case, the sound is worth a few small hoops to jump through.
That I can certainly agree with you on!! Knowing Neve's work, your raves, and from the demo that Billy gave me at AES a couple years back I could see that it had some very serious power under the hood.

It's just for those like me who already have a number of processors that we like it's hard to justify the expense of the Masterpiece (which admittedly would get a very good bit more expensive if it was modded to my specs) with these sticking points. Good to hear that Billy Stull & Rupert Neve are further refining it though - and maybe if I win the lotto at some point I might join you & Bruce in the "Masterpiece Owner's Club." I've been seriously wanting to get a demo of Vintage Design's beefed up clone of the 2254 though as I often want some more taste of Neve flavoring here!

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 27th August 2007
  #23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cellotron View Post
Another analog option that hasn't been mentioned yet are the older European "Panorama" x/y panning and m/s matrix modules by the likes of Neumann (SKX2), Siemens (W289) & Telefunken.
Hi Steve,
i've tryed this solution and it didn't convinced me.
the LAWO W989 is just stereo in -> with a switch for stereo or MS out (so you can't use 2 of them to code and decode ms)
it's clean sounding but a bit dull

the TFK is st or ms in -> ms or st out, but it's far too creamy in my sense
especially if 2 are used linked

i had both model linked and the final conclusion was that they're not made for todays levels, and not clean enough together (both came in perfect state from Matthias Flache @ vintagecity)
so i sold them and look for an other solution,
actually, i'm thinking to order a custom MS matrix or even a custom desk to a friend who started hiw own brand: AIelectronik
he's young but really talentuous, his dual preamp and compressor sound already incredibly well
(reptil can tell too he tryed the pre and an early savage version of the comp heh thumbsup )
Old 27th August 2007
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Originally Posted by livingstone View Post
Hi Steve,
i've tryed this solution and it didn't convinced me.
the LAWO W989 is just stereo in -> with a switch for stereo or MS out (so you can't use 2 of them to code and decode ms)
it's clean sounding but a bit dull

the TFK is st or ms in -> ms or st out, but it's far too creamy in my sense
especially if 2 are used linked

i had both model linked and the final conclusion was that they're not made for todays levels, and not clean enough together (both came in perfect state from Matthias Flache @ vintagecity)
so i sold them and look for an other solution,
actually, i'm thinking to order a custom MS matrix or even a custom desk to a friend who started hiw own brand: AIelectronik
he's young but really talentuous, his dual preamp and compressor sound already incredibly well
(reptil can tell too he tryed the pre and an early savage version of the comp heh thumbsup )
yes, his pre is warm and clear, and the comp sounded very effective. Interesting sonic capabillities. It didn't sound like anything I heard so far. The rough version only had two settings, on and off heh, so I'm looking forward to the production version. thumbsup
Very talented, good ears, tiny budget, no english language skills, beautiful machines crafted with love. That about sums up AIelectronics for me. Very special. IMO he'd do fine making products catering the mastering engineers' needs, instead of tracking and mixing studios. Small volume, high quality, exceptional sonics. IMO it'll fit hand in glove. I hope he'll make it businesswise. He's got balls, for starting a new business in France. thumbsup

Cellotron, the WSW is R.Ela.wd.6 b. It's from 1964. It can take higher levels than the LAWO and Telefunken. It's all in the transformers. I never saw another one. Not in any studio, nor on sale. And I was hawking evilbay for a couple of years.

I understand the experience of Livingstone with the LAWO and TFK. They'd not fit in a high level mastering chain, however, I'm going to drop some new higher voltage caps in. Adjust some other components. And just see where it goes. Another job lined up for the workbench.

Right now, the Telefunken is hooked up, and I'm using it like this:
source + DI --> M/S --> amp (Speck Xtramix CXi) --> processing (dynamics, filter) --> AD --> M/S inside computer to make it stereo again

A portico or masterlink would be less hassle.
Old 27th August 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSD_Mastering View Post
Why not get a Masterpiece?
I'll be taking delivery of the first Masterpiece II next week. It has upgrades from the first unit, like outboard PS and no fans! That's what kept me from buying the first one!

Regards,
Bruce
I'm saving up...
Old 27th August 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey View Post
Ha!



Sonicdefault I resist plugging what I use, but it's worth mentioning that the Elysia Alpha has far more than M/S, adding a wet/dry blend at constant gain to both the M and S, eq tilts on the M only or S only or on both, auto fast attack and/or auto fast release on the M or S or both, and a variable sidechain on the M, S or both. The effective uses of these subtle tweaks are endless, and fast/simple to use.
Thanks! I'll look into that.

-SD
Old 27th August 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reptil View Post
yes, his pre is warm and clear, and the comp sounded very effective. Interesting sonic capabillities. It didn't sound like anything I heard so far. The rough version only had two settings, on and off heh, so I'm looking forward to the production version. thumbsup
Very talented, good ears, tiny budget, no english language skills, beautiful machines crafted with love. That about sums up AIelectronics for me. Very special. IMO he'd do fine making products catering the mastering engineers' needs, instead of tracking and mixing studios. Small volume, high quality, exceptional sonics. IMO it'll fit hand in glove. I hope he'll make it businesswise. He's got balls, for starting a new business in France. thumbsup

Cellotron, the WSW is R.Ela.wd.6 b. It's from 1964. It can take higher levels than the LAWO and Telefunken. It's all in the transformers. I never saw another one. Not in any studio, nor on sale. And I was hawking evilbay for a couple of years.

I understand the experience of Livingstone with the LAWO and TFK. They'd not fit in a high level mastering chain, however, I'm going to drop some new higher voltage caps in. Adjust some other components. And just see where it goes. Another job lined up for the workbench.

Right now, the Telefunken is hooked up, and I'm using it like this:
source + DI --> M/S --> amp (Speck Xtramix CXi) --> processing (dynamics, filter) --> AD --> M/S inside computer to make it stereo again

Reptil - thanks again to you and Livingstone for the further info. Guess getting a custom passive M/S matrix made really wouldn't be that much of a hassle or expense either, and for an active one the Dangerous S/M sounds really great to my ear, and is still reasonably priced, so I'll probably go this route eventually. For the time I've been using the Sonoris M/S Codec with one instnance loaded on a DAW sending to the analog process chain encoding - and the other one on the analog capture DAW decoding - not always the quickest thing to set up though - and not really useable when dealing with an analog source.

Quote:
A portico or masterlink would be less hassle.
Just for the sake of accuracy - I think you mean "Masterpiece" instead of "masterlink."

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 28th August 2007
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cellotron View Post
The "Stereo Width" function on the SPL SX2 Vitalizer, while having only a single adjustable parameter, is relatively unique and can offer a widening that is not just straight Side channel gain change.
Best regards,
Steve Berson
If it's not just raising the 'side' info, what's else is it actually doing. can you elaborate?

p.s also, I remember the 'Frankenstein' unit being used by some MEs.
Old 28th August 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundroid View Post
If it's not just raising the 'side' info, what's else is it actually doing. can you elaborate?
From the manual:

Working on established inter-channel phase principles, the
STEREO WIDTH control increases the subjective soundstage
width of any stereo source. The off-centre signals of the stereo
source are detected and fed back phase inverted to the opposite
channel


To my ear it's sound it tends to thin the center out a bit more, and give a greater feeling of width than just gain changes on the Side Channel M/S. I don't use this effect very often - and a little bit can go a very long way - but sometimes it really can work incredibly well in helping to "unclog" cluttered mixes and give definition and seperation to instruments - especially on mixes with lots of overly resonant lower mids. It's important to be cautious with applying it as you can lose the impact of the Mid channel elements, and really change the mix's balance if you're not conservative with applying it.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 28th August 2007
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I've been very interested lately on adjusting the image of the soundstage in relation to it's phase/frequency relationships. That's one thing I like about the Masterpiece. It looks like the Portico unit is similar in functionality, and I really like the inserts.

-SD
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