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Silver vs Copper Cables Modular Synthesizers
Old 22nd August 2007
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrox247 View Post
And how much are you willing to pay for this service?
Well, he has indeed asserted that he's terribly busy so I fully understand if he is not willing to take a few minutes to do this and further the discussion that he was so interested in having publicly. In such case, I suppose it would indeed be worth a small fee to me. Would anyone else like to chip in to help me pay for a quarter-hour of Brian's time and make these files for us all to hear?

Cheers!
Old 22nd August 2007
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pinwale View Post
Well, he has indeed asserted that he's terribly busy so I fully understand if he is not willing to take a few minutes to do this and further the discussion that he was so interested in having publicly. In such case, I suppose it would indeed be worth a small fee to me. Would anyone else like to chip in to help me pay for a quarter-hour of Brian's time and make these files for us all to hear?

Cheers!
Ill chip in 20 euro.

Whats Brians hourly rate?

Gustav
Old 22nd August 2007
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pinwale View Post
Well, he has indeed asserted that he's terribly busy so I fully understand if he is not willing to take a few minutes to do this and further the discussion that he was so interested in having publicly. In such case, I suppose it would indeed be worth a small fee to me. Would anyone else like to chip in to help me pay for a quarter-hour of Brian's time and make these files for us all to hear?

Cheers!
Hey Brian,

I'm kinda curious about this too. I've always had a raised eyebrow when it comes to cable-discussions, but if you've got copper and silver cables there at your place that manifest such a difference when used at line-level, it would be pretty cool to hear.

If you could spend the few minutes it would take to lay off a pass of each, I for one would love to hear it. Otherwise, I'd be game to contribute a few bucks if you feel this is that kind of time to spend.

Thanks!
-dave
Old 22nd August 2007
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey View Post
I'd like to narrow the cable debate to a materials discussion.

I changed my main DA output => Amps cabling last week, back to what I used to use, copper Cardas 2x24M. Then just now switched back to Acoustic Zen's silver cable....

Wow. If you ever had a doubt that line level cabling could make an easily audible difference, compare silver to copper. It's a huge difference. Silver has extended subs and top, is flatter, and presents more harmonic content.
Is there a question in there? if so my answer is.....uh......YES!

Actually it is yes. Yes, I have done this and yes I hear exactly what you are describing. In audiophile circles I believe this is just a given and no discussion needed except things like are the $2000 cables worth it over the $200 cables with xyz speakers, abc preamp and qrs CD machine and such. I know from past experience of having extemely high end home stero systems to having more family friendly systems and now back to a mid-fi setup that having the top of the line anything won't really shine unless everything else matches in terms of quality and then sometimes you have to swap cables enough times to get the audio chain worked out to your satisfaction. It's alot like family. No matter how close you are there are just some relatives that don't get along all that well.

Is that what you were driving at?
Old 23rd August 2007
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey View Post
I'd like to narrow the cable debate to a materials discussion.

If you ever had a doubt that line level cabling could make an easily audible difference, compare silver to copper.
Brian, here's my question -- has it improved the sound of your final masters?

I've been through lots and lots of different cables. Although mostly staying with copper formulations, just different insulation, construction, and jacketing. So that might not technically qualify for your topic, if you are only interested in discussing the *wire* material.

FWIW, for line/mic level signals, in my experience Teflon shielded twisted pairs worked significantly better overall for my objective of 'neutral' sound with excellent noise suppression. I have not tried any of those with silver wire.

In any event, of course there are remarkable differences in the sound of many audio cable constructions. Monster shouters or others who just cannot hear it are politely smiled at and waved to as I go about my business.

Cables are equalizers, it is just that simple. There is no best, only different. What suits a particular combination of ear, room, amp, speaker, whatever, will certainly not always be ideal in the next setup to come along. Sometimes that extra 'detail' or certain frequency shift turns out to be distracting me from my objective, as does using equipment that sounds really lush and full most of the time regardless of the source material.

I just keep doing shootouts until I can feel the ones I want to use. And of course the proof is in the mixed or mastered product.

Steve
Old 23rd August 2007
  #66
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This is a very good cable.

http://www.signaturewire.com/pdf/Sig...0REV%201.0.pdf

We tried #10 welding cable, Monster cable and finally the SignaFlex. The welding cable sounded to bright, the monster sounded OK but the SignaFlex really made the sound come alive.

We don't have any stereo or hi fi stores around the Cleveland area anymore so I cannot easily try any silver wire without ordering it off the web.
Old 23rd August 2007
  #67
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Cardas wire can sound pretty dark so I'm not that sure the difference described is simply one of silver vs. copper.
Old 24th August 2007
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Cardas wire can sound pretty dark so I'm not that sure the difference described is simply one of silver vs. copper.
Yeah, this is why I didn't jump on the offer to pitch in a few bucks for an A/B test of the two cables. I'm interested in demonstrating any difference between silver and copper, but unless the cables are constructed identically with identical wire gauges, diaelectrics, spacings, lengths, etc, the test is meaningless. You might hear differences but you won't know if it has anything to do with the conductor material.

Regards,

John
Old 25th August 2007
  #69
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Ive still got €20 burning a hole in my silver-lined pocket.

Gustav
Old 30th August 2007
  #70
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Cheers, everyone.

I've been away a bit, and thought I was going to be missing all the listening, but it looks like this thread has ceased to be.

Mr. Lucey, I know I went for the seven shades on you in a past thread, so you might think I'm merely looking to expose you as someone who thinks and claims he hears a great difference where none exists, but I honestly do want to hear the line level difference between your copper and silver wires, and think it could make for good discussion, now that you have opened it up.

Looking forward to you posting files for us. (paid or not)
Old 30th August 2007
  #71
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To be fair to the manufacturers I had two pairs of speaker cables that cost around 2-3K a 3meter pair. We swapped my hand made Cat5 cables that closley resmble the ones linked down below and we where shocked how much better they sounded. I mean details,dynamics, noise floor etc. Total cost maybe less than 100 dollars and soar fingers. No they where not as good as the Nordost that cost three times as much but stil a good way to here a difference and know what to expect.



http://www.venhaus1.com/diycatfivecables.html
Old 30th August 2007
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSD_Mastering View Post
I'll throw another material in there. I have Alumiloy in all of my cables. Yes, I can hear a difference in cables. I've tried Transparent, Nordost, Harmonic Tech and now JPS Labs Aluminata. My whole system is wired with this... except for the ST/SC optical cables. It also has Kapton and Aluminum shielding. I'm not a big fan of networks in your cables. They muck up the sound too much. I do like the silver (Harmonic Tech Pro-Silway) in my phono section though.
BTW... all of my analog cabling is the digital 110 ohm and 75 ohm AES/EBU and SDIF cable. I can hear a difference between the analog and digital cable and I like the digital better... FOR ME....

Regards,
Bruce
I never heard them and cost is just out of this world but rumor has it the Nordost Odin's kill even their Valhalla line. I will have to see if I can get some JPS stuff in one day for review.
Old 30th August 2007
  #73
There is one thing that everyone needs to keep in mind. The cable can be driven by any number of devices that have varying output impedances, which will be a great decider in the capacitance of the cable. If you are coming out of a very low-z fed, the cable may sound fine. If it is something like 1 to 5K, it will make a difference. The braided cable could also be many things, including inductance, which would slightly darken the top, maybe making it more likable.

My point is this:

Much of what cable does effects the way the signal gets passed along. Debating if there is a difference is difficult to do unless it is remarkable. Debating which is better is impossible, unless all parties are present and the test setup is the same for all of them, even when they leave and go to their own places. So, the bottom line is that no matter what the difference is, if it sounds better to you, use it. It will make you like what you do more, resulting in better mixes and mastering, which you could then welcome the reason for the improvement on what ever you feel influenced you the most. Most of the time, it will be what cost you the most...

My speaker cables are made of compress cow ****, spun into a web of thin wires, braided together by people with only 3 fingers on each hand, and dipped in the spittle of a very rare spider.

My stuff doesn't sound bad, does it?
Old 31st August 2007
  #74
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I have found that the digital gotham (big purple, don't remember model) is a pretty descent compromise in the copper land. I like it better than belden 1800.

The only Silver I've used/have for interconnect is Zaolla. It's not a huge difference over copper and is made very poorly.

Have you thought about sticking with the silver interconnect and changing to a darker speaker cable? I have both Kimber 8tc and a cheaper model of transparent audio speaker cable. The kimber is considerably brighter.
Old 31st August 2007
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToneLux View Post
There is one thing that everyone needs to keep in mind. The cable can be driven by any number of devices that have varying output impedances, which will be a great decider in the capacitance of the cable. If you are coming out of a very low-z fed, the cable may sound fine. If it is something like 1 to 5K, it will make a difference. The braided cable could also be many things, including inductance, which would slightly darken the top, maybe making it more likable.

My point is this:

Much of what cable does effects the way the signal gets passed along. Debating if there is a difference is difficult to do unless it is remarkable. Debating which is better is impossible, unless all parties are present and the test setup is the same for all of them, even when they leave and go to their own places. So, the bottom line is that no matter what the difference is, if it sounds better to you, use it. It will make you like what you do more, resulting in better mixes and mastering, which you could then welcome the reason for the improvement on what ever you feel influenced you the most. Most of the time, it will be what cost you the most...

My speaker cables are made of compress cow ****, spun into a web of thin wires, braided together by people with only 3 fingers on each hand, and dipped in the spittle of a very rare spider.

My stuff doesn't sound bad, does it?
Actually the braided cable I built has a very low inductance so it tends to have a very open high end. But a good point all the same. Another thing that single ended tube guys have to keep in mind is that because the inductance is low some amps may go into modulation.

Impedance is a very important factor in any cable design and my observations where with similar cables and setups.
Old 31st August 2007
  #76
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still, one question went unanswered from back in the depths of the thread...

Does anybody have a direct comparison through a good AD of the different cables? Talking line level, this should be an easy thing to test objectively with the only switch being the cable. Don't have the cables (and won't buy 'em as I'm happy, thanks!)...but surely somebody who has can post something?

I'm still in the camp that thinks comb filtering changes while moving about to change cables, tightening of cables etc. and fractional changes in the room render testing such small differences barely perceptible, and you should use whatever you like...I've found more pricey cables usually (but not always) last longer - up to a point. But where does it end?

Also you hear SO often of 'xyz has more definition, sparkle, presence' but the question of course is - IS that actually a distortion and not true to the signal?

(incidentally here - Aurant : Signature Featured Products is where it ends....)

I'm a firm believer that the people with the more extravagant claim hold the burden of proof, the laws of physics would seem to show that there should be no discernible difference - and the above website has some staggering claims.
Old 31st August 2007
  #77
Quote:
Originally Posted by 807Recordings View Post
Actually the braided cable I built has a very low inductance so it tends to have a very open high end. But a good point all the same. Another thing that single ended tube guys have to keep in mind is that because the inductance is low some amps may go into modulation.

Impedance is a very important factor in any cable design and my observations where with similar cables and setups.
Two points:

It is oscillation, not modulation.



Impedance is not an normally an issue within the audio bands. Impedance is a combination of reactance and resistance. If a cable has no inductance and the capacitance is extremely low, then Impedance is not an issue. If you are driving it with a hi-z output stage, then the capacitance will be an issue, but as the source resistance becomes higher, the series resistance of the cable is pretty non existent so you now have just a problem with the capacitance. The impedance again is not really a factor because the series resistance is almost non-existent. As the frequencies go up, you have a complex set of matrices of inductance and capacitance forming a very complicated cable. As the frequencies get up into the Gigahertz range, you begin to have to take in the skin effect, then the cable becomes a wave guide.

If a cable has an impedance spec, it is probably has a spec with a frequency that is in the video area, as in 50 or 75 ohm cable. It still has little to do with audio.

Now if you have a very low source and very high capacitance, you will have an impedance issue, but it will sound so bad you won't even get out your calculator.

Of course this does not include speaker cables or data cables.



This is the main problem with the audio business, the knowledge of what the specs mean in largely unknown, so everyone relies on urban specs. I have seen cable specs that list half of each spec, with a huge list of technical terms, but with either no reference point or an incomplete set of numerators.

Many don't know what slew rate is and what it means. Just as a reference, 2 volts per micro second means that it can reproduce 20KHz pretty well, and begins to slow down after that, reducing the gain any higher. It does not always mean that the sound goes to hell after that. The API 2520 in a certain configuration has a slew rate of 2.5 v/usec. No one ever complained about the way it sounded.

So, once again, I say, listen to it, if it sounds better to you, use it.
Old 1st September 2007
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToneLux View Post
Two points:

It is oscillation, not modulation.



So, once again, I say, listen to it, if it sounds better to you, use it.

Sorry that is what I meant but got side tracked and said the wrong term. I also agree with you on listening to what sounds better. There has been a few times I have had some people over thinking they where hearing some crazy expensive amp with cables (still good speakers) but really it was two ok tube amps that complimented the speakers strengths. Two amps maybe 100 dollars and the same cables. Mind you with one of those cheap amps it sounded like ass and there have been times where better stuff has sounded better.

But I agree listen and see.
Old 1st September 2007
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by binarybob View Post
01010000 01000001 01000111 01001001 01001110 01000111 00100000 01000010 01010010 01001001 01000001 01001110 00100000 01001100 01010101 01000011 01000101 01011001 00100001 00100000 01001001 00100111 01101101 00100000 01110111 01101001 01110100 01101000 00100000 01101100 01101111 01101110 01100100 01101111 01101110 01110100 01101111 01110111 01101110 00100001 00100000 01001100 01100101 01110100 00100111 01110011 00100000 01101000 01100101 01100001 01110010 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 01110010 00100000 01101100 01101001 01101110 01100101 00101101 01101100 01100101 01110110 01100101 01101100 00100000 01100011 01100001 01100010 01101100 01100101 01110011 00100001 00100000 01011001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01101000 01100001 01110110 01100101 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100111 01101111 01101111 01100100 00100000 01000001 01000100 00101100 00100000 01110010 01101001 01100111 01101000 01110100 00111111
This post makes more sense than all the rest. Is there a translation into ASCII type?
Old 1st September 2007
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loujudson View Post
This post makes more sense than all the rest. Is there a translation into ASCII type?
I preffer HEX myself thumbsup
Old 1st September 2007
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 807Recordings View Post
I preffer HEX myself thumbsup
Maybe just English...
Old 2nd September 2007
  #82
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I find optical cables to be the most transparent.
Old 2nd September 2007
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loujudson View Post
This post makes more sense than all the rest. Is there a translation into ASCII type?
I believe he's looking for Brian Lucey.
Old 2nd September 2007
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by masteringhouse View Post
I find optical cables to be the most transparent.
Yeah the light passes right thru it !
Old 2nd September 2007
  #85
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I'm out of this thread ... it was a mistake. All I wanted to do was chat with people who had done the A/B of numerous silver and copper cables. It's obviously impossible to have that discussion as almost everyone is offended and posturing ensues.

Do your own tests folks, and use whatever works, it's only cable - the last thing to worry about.

Old 2nd September 2007
  #86
I used cooper since al my ends on amps and speakers connectors are cooper.
Old 2nd September 2007
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey View Post
I'm out of this thread ... it was a mistake. All I wanted to do was chat with people who had done the A/B of numerous silver and copper cables. It's obviously impossible to have that discussion as almost everyone is offended and posturing ensues.
Hey Brian, no offense from this end. I make a few silly jokes, but that's just how I roll.

Personally I've never tried any silver cables, just a wide variety of copper, and found that most any high quality copper standard brand, like Belden works great. Trying silver cable is an interesting idea, but not enough of a priority for us to spend time experimenting with it. Now if some audiofile geek wants to bring a pair over for me to demo, fine, I'll get around to it in a week or two... but that's unlikely to occur.

As far as this thread being a mistake, I don't really think so. I found it kind of interesting... one of the few I've actually read in recent weeks.

I do think that trying to control the direction of a thread is impossible, you can only start it and let it take it's own course. Kind of like launching a toy sailboat at waters' edge and letting the wind cary it where it may. You can make a few attempts to correct its' course, but in the end the vessel find its' own path. Sometimes its' the path of least resistance, sometimes that of the lowest common denominator, & sometimes Newtons' law of equal but opposite reaction rears its' head.

Cheers - JT
Old 2nd September 2007
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
As far as this thread being a mistake, I don't really think so. I found it kind of interesting... one of the few I've actually read in recent weeks.
Glad you enjoyed it.
Quote:
I do think that trying to control the direction of a thread is impossible, you can only start it and let it take it's own course.
I should have known better, that's all. I was dreaming that those with nothing topical to add would observe/sneer from the sidelines... ah to dream.

I had a need and came here for ideas. It worked out in PM, but not here, so it was worth it.

After two months of being the busiest ever it's slowing and I've come down with a nasty cold. I need easy posts, as I don't have the patience to navigating those who are lazy and demanding ("post files for me") and those that have a cocky attitude about the assumed impossibility of cable tone. It's a defense mechanism and I don't have the energy to post around it or the desire the read through it.

Sorry, just too cranky to deal with the cranky. A topic that is too hot for the net, as it offends seemingly everyone. Done deal.
Old 2nd September 2007
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
Hey Brian, no offense from this end. I make a few silly jokes, but that's just how I roll.
Same here Brian. Thicker skin bud, a little comedy hopefully helps to lessen the tension, and if it works for you and/or you hear a difference who cares what anyone thinks anyway. I wouldn't expect to control any comments on a public forum though unless you are the moderator.

I think this thread is actually one of the more interesting ones that I've read in a while whether you agree or not.

Anyone up for a thread on Shakti Stones or On-Lines?*

* Not that this thread is in the same category nor do I warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information, comment, description, or joke disclosed. Your mileage may vary.
Old 2nd September 2007
  #90
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I don't believe that Brians original intent was to have his own personal philosophies and methodologies questioned or attacked. He was seeking information. I don't think his purpose behind the original post was to create some kind of divide in which he would have to justify the validity of the science behind his beliefs. The thread seems to have taken a direction which is far from the original purpose of the post. Brian has no obligation to provide members of this forum with any sort of tests or scientific data. Such A/B tests can be done by any member who wishes do them (and such tests don't require Brian's involvement).

Also, I would like to state that I am very glad that it is not a requirement to have full in depth knowledge of the science behind everything I use in life. If that were the case, I would be in big trouble because there is a myriad of knowledge that I have not acquired, and I personally could never meet that standard.
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