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True Peak Limiting ?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #1
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darkalex's Avatar
 

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True Peak Limiting ?

Greetings !

Do we need to care about true peak limiting in modern masters?

I've heard numerous CD's done by the A-Lister engineers like Brian Gardner , Ted Jensen and the likes and not a single one of them has true-peak values less than +1dB with some reaching to +3dB and none of them has a ceiling more than -0.01 dB with most if not all of them hitting 0dBFS.

I've often tried using true peak limiting in any limiter which offers it and it just messes with the whole sonic balance of the master, as soon as I enable true-peak limit, the punch or the warmth that I develop is partially lost, particularly in the super high end.

What do you guys think about this? Should I worry about True Peak's under 0dBFS?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2
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Like you I don't bother anymore due to the impact to the sound. I master to -0.4db, never had an issue with those masters after conversion to any format so I keep the option switched off (I usually use Ozone's limiter).
Old 2 weeks ago
  #3
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biksonije's Avatar
 

Yes. You should care. However, not all signals (sound) distort in the same audible (very pronounced) way. But still, do your thing and (if ITB) make it between -1dBFS and -0.5dBFS. This way you're safe for any purposes after you deliver or publish.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #4
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i've been using broadcast limiters for decades to avoid overshooting in case absolute brickwall limiting should be needed (rarely: before i use them, i trim things down) - not getting why someone would want to pump up levels in such crazy ways and even less why even some reputable techs still engange in this silly game: i thought loudness war is over for ca. 10 years now?!
Old 2 weeks ago
  #5
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SmoothTone's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkalex View Post
Do we need to care about true peak limiting in modern masters?

What do you guys think about this? Should I worry about True Peak's under 0dBFS?
Relevant discussion here:

Peak Headroom

Note how it evolves later in the thread.
Old 1 week ago
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmoothTone View Post
Relevant discussion here:

Peak Headroom

Note how it evolves later in the thread.
'peak headroom' as discussed in the other thread is a poor term: 'peak' alone is perfectly fine (as levels refer to 0dBfs anyway and it's not a 'headroom' but rather a 'safety limit'). also peak and lufs ARE related or else the mastering tech hasn't mastered his/her craft...

depending on playback environment, there's very good reason for limiting the dynamic range but it's absolutely pointless to strive for silly high lufs and/or to get stupid peaks! - ever clipped a powerful am or fm transmitter?! or watched the reaction of a large crowd to being exposed to overly loud/squashed music? how about tons of devices still in use with d/a converters taking peaks close to 0dBfs not very well?

neglecting any of this just to please an ignorant producer or label representative imo is idiotic (if not dangerous)!

i'm sticking to -0,28dBfs peak (and zero inter-sample-peaks) for ca. 30 years, up to -18dB lufs for classical and -12dBfs for rock, blues and jazz mostly somewhere in between (i have to admit that i ended up with -9dBfs on some very rare exceptions with pop music, mainly due to the fact that i then didn't get to work on with my own gear).
Old 1 week ago
  #7
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Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

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Probably a good idea to use one, a peak limiter...

I remember Bob Katz said

“they should require you to get a license to drive those things”

or similar.

Limiters are sooo easy to abuse,

and think you’re a Mastering Engineer.

Cheers, JT

p.s. still, I print with -0.3 dB headroom, as recommended by Michael Gerzon back in 1994 when his first plug-in L1 software limiter was released.

Last edited by Jerry Tubb; 1 week ago at 09:55 AM..
Old 1 week ago
  #8
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darkalex's Avatar
 

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I think I conveyed the whole thing wrong, apologies.

I'm talking about the true-peak/ ISP levels of a master, I'm not talking about the 'regular peak' like a master hitting 0dbFS since 2 masters - both hitting 0dBFS ceiling - but one has ISP's up to +2dBFS and one has ISP's at 0dBFS, despite both having the same RMS and/or LUFS level

But what I've noticed when using an ISP/True-Peak Limiter is that it just takes away quite a lot of high end from the master and sort of loses energy. And the thread which was posted had quite a lot of confusion, I just could not understand what was the conclusion there, it was all 50-50, some say take -2dB ceiling some say do 2dB less limiting and peak at -0/0.1

And since most of the well-established engineers just don't happen to care about it, shall we?
Old 1 week ago
  #9
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I thought the general consensus was clearer than that. There's nothing wrong with taking the information that was shared, doing your own listening and drawing your own conclusions. There's no one right answer; just the practice that you feel most comfortable with.

Anyway, clearly ISPs are not as evil as the internet has made them out to be.

I'm pretty pragmatic about it now and just do what sounds best for a given master. Sometimes that's TP limiting with a lower ceiling. Sometimes it kills the energy too much. Sometimes I need to squeeze every last 10th of a dB to get it where the client wants it and ISPs be damned.

What are you using for TP limiting darkalex? DMG and TDR are the most transparent of the ones I have.

Last edited by SmoothTone; 1 week ago at 01:26 PM.. Reason: Addition
Old 1 week ago
  #10
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darkalex's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmoothTone View Post
I thought the general consensus was clearer than that. There's nothing wrong with taking the information that was shared, doing your own listening and drawing your own conclusions. There's no one right answer; just the practice that you feel most comfortable with.

Anyway, clearly ISPs are not as evil as the internet has made them out to be.

I'm pretty pragmatic about it now and just do what sounds best for a given master. Sometimes that's TP limiting with a lower ceiling. Sometimes it kills the energy too much. Sometimes I need to squeeze every last 10th of a dB to get it where the client wants it and ISPs be damned.

What are you using for TP limiting darkalex? DMG and TDR are the most transparent of the ones I have.
I lean towards the iZotope Maximizer for True Peak limiting and/or the Waves L1, whichever sounds better to me on the track.

I love the iZotope Maximizer for what it is, 10 different limiters, fully customizable, and the ability for automatic multi-band limiting when heavy gain reduction is required.

What limiters or clippers do you tend to use the most for rock or stuff with agressive transients/drums @ SmoothTone ?

Do you think limiters can retain the attack on drums or anything? I just like to soft clip whenever possible and then put a limiter for the final 1-2 dB
Old 1 week ago
  #11
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scraggs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkalex View Post
I just like to soft clip whenever possible and then put a limiter for the final 1-2 dB
That's generally my approach as well.
Old 1 week ago
  #12
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Trakworx's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkalex View Post
Greetings !

Do we need to care about true peak limiting in modern masters?

I've heard numerous CD's done by the A-Lister engineers like Brian Gardner , Ted Jensen and the likes and not a single one of them has true-peak values less than +1dB with some reaching to +3dB and none of them has a ceiling more than -0.01 dB with most if not all of them hitting 0dBFS.

I've often tried using true peak limiting in any limiter which offers it and it just messes with the whole sonic balance of the master, as soon as I enable true-peak limit, the punch or the warmth that I develop is partially lost, particularly in the super high end.

What do you guys think about this? Should I worry about True Peak's under 0dBFS?
Yes, clearly the majority of big name MEs don't care about ISPs or peak headroom, despite those concerns being apparent best engineering practice. It's a hard thing to get my head around, but it's plain to see.

After much consideration and experimentation I have come to where I get the best sounding results with 'acceptable' ISPs by leaving -0.5dB peak headroom and disabling TP protection. I went into detail near the end of the Peak Headroom thread as it currently stands. That's just where I'm at now and I may continue to refine my approach.

Of course you should do your own experimentation to find what works best for you with the tools you're using.
Old 1 week ago
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkalex View Post
What limiters or clippers do you tend to use the most for rock or stuff with agressive transients/drums @ SmoothTone ?
I use Limitless primarily. With rock/aggressive stuff I'll tend to do a bit more clipping, either with the clipper in Limitless or StandardCLIP or Kclip (version 1).

Quote:
Do you think limiters can retain the attack on drums or anything? I just like to soft clip whenever possible and then put a limiter for the final 1-2 dB
Sometimes a limiter can sound more punchy than clipping. Limitless in full transient mode or Pro-L2's aggressive algorithm followed by something slower can sound better than a clipper>limiter combo.
Old 1 week ago
  #14
Gear Nut
Hi,
I produce EDM like jungle/ drum'n bass and when I see something like this, attached, I'm getting more and more in doubt about true peak limiting at all.

What we are talking about all these great true peak limiter like fab filter L2 or Nugen ISL, which I use frequently, when the "pro" producer seems to really don't care about it ..?

How it sounds, ... ? Hmm, I have to say, quite good. Not so much of distortion I have thought. But what makes me really angry is the fact, that my DA converter is all the time in the overs and to compare it, or use these tracks as a reference I have to lower them anyway. So, what's the goal to master like this ?

ATB

frank
Attached Thumbnails
True Peak Limiting ?-calibre-shelflife-six-02-years.jpg  
Old 1 week ago
  #15
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Trakworx's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by frabo View Post
when I see something like this, attached
Hey, what generated that readout for you? I'd like an AudioSuite plugin for PT that did that...
Old 1 week ago
  #16
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trakworx View Post
Hey, what generated that readout for you? I'd like an AudioSuite plugin for PT that did that...
It is iZotope RX 7
Old 1 week ago
  #17
Mastering Moderator
 
Riccardo's Avatar
 

Verified Member
I don't know where that example comes from or refers to but needing to clip an go over like in the screenshot just to get to -10..........
Old 1 week ago
  #18
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riccardo View Post
I don't know where that example comes from or refers to but needing to clip an go over like in the screenshot just to get to -10..........

? Sorry, I didn't get what you mean...

This example is a pro mastered, released track by a pro artist. And it refers to the question, if it makes really sense, to think so much about the use of true peak limiter, if the pro me's seems they don't care.

Old 1 week ago
  #19
Mastering Moderator
 
Riccardo's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by frabo View Post
? Sorry, I didn't get what you mean...

This example is a pro mastered, released track by a pro artist. And it refers to the question, if it makes really sense, to think so much about the use of true peak limiter, if the pro me's seems they don't care.

I apologise , mine was just a side note or thought if you wish. I would personally consider -10 loud for my personal taste but that aside if a customer requested a loudish master around -9 or -10 as in your example I doubt we would need to clip as badly as shown in the RX7 screenshot.


I won't comment on the "Pro" definition. I will cheekily say that Pro means you get paid for what you do. Doesn't always necessarily imply quality or knowledge.
I you have been around for a while I am sure you will have met a good those of goofs in all industries, from artists to managers to label exec and so on... beyond just music. Doesn't mean what is perceived as being done by what you call "pro" is right. In my personal opinion of course.
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