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Elliptical
Old 1 week ago
  #1
Gear Head
 
MFSAKA's Avatar
Elliptical

Hi!
Searching for solution for vinyl mastering. I need Elliptical filter to narrow low end.
STRICTLY OTB!
No plugins!

Google a lot on this one, but all search results is spammed with young cats with that sound engineer jokes...They call it plugins

Main thing over here it's a budget. Unfortunately i don't have opportunity get some Maselec etc. Too pricey 4 me now.

Search 4 MS Matrix but still same problem, most solutions cost like my crib (Ukraine)

So i'm thinking about some outboard DSP units like Behringer DSP 2024P Virtualizer pro. I'm read the manual and find some mentions about controling stereo width of bass.
I'm know many of you will be bombed me about the Behringer stuff. I know they notorious back in the days. Mostly about STN.
But i buy 8 mouths back a ULTRAMIZER DSP PRO 1424 and start use it for mastering. Unit sounds amazing on my mixes..EQ little harsh on the high end but i think it's a Behringer "thing"
I use mostly only compression and maximizer.

So....bottom line:


Any different budget solutions for mono my low end, or thoughts on that Behringer DSP 2024P Virtualizer pro, please.
Old 1 week ago
  #2
Lives for gear
O.K., so you're making jokes of plugins (with essentially lossless M/S matrix and transparent side channel filtering), while having 18y old budget Behringer box in-line for mastering..
Can't help with that one.. Sorry.. But still thinking, whether you don't use a DAW at all or it's just about fun. Or what's the point of seeking for old budget outboard digital for pretty rudimentary tasks, you can easily solve in the box.

Anyway you can check Mr. Kirkwood's filter (you could save a lot, if you get just PCB and ICs and built it by yourself)
http://www.ka-electronics.com/kaelec...lliptic_EQ.htm
he also have M/S Matrices
https://www.ka-electronics.com/kaele.../MS_Matrix.htm

Among older digital, IIRC TC Finalizer 96k has three band stereo width control. Can't exactly recall, where was crossover point for low band, but it can be certainly usable also for control of bass width. Plus of course there are also other usable algorithms, if you don't overdo them.

Michal
Old 1 week ago
  #3
Gear Head
 
S_mask's Avatar
 

The perfect budget solution for monoing low end is to let the disk cutter do it. The capable cutterist will already have a good-sounding processor for summing bass, and this leaves room for not summing bass at all, or at as high a frequency as one who makes bass mono blindly, miles from the lathe, might think necessary.
Old 1 week ago
  #4
Gear Guru
 
Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by S_mask View Post
The perfect budget solution for monoing low end is to let the disk cutter do it. The capable cutterist will already have a good-sounding processor for summing bass, and this leaves room for not summing bass at all, or at as high a frequency as one who makes bass mono blindly, miles from the lathe, might think necessary.
Best advice possible ^^^ except for maybe tossing the Behringer in the trash where it belongs.
Old 1 week ago
  #5
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Justin P.'s Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by MFSAKA View Post
outboard DSP units
How/why would this be different than a plugin? How do you know you need to do this?

As mentioned, the cutting engineer will know best if and what needs to happen, but if you or your client goes with a budget/broker/etc for vinyl, you may not get that line of communication and attention to detail either.

Get a nice plugin (Goodhertz Miidside), or a nice piece of hardware:
https://spl.audio/mastering/gemini/?lang=en

But doing it with a cheap piece of (digital) hardware seems like a waste of time.
Old 1 week ago
  #6
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Greg Reierson's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by MFSAKA View Post
Hi!
Searching for solution for vinyl mastering. I need Elliptical filter to narrow low end.
What lathe and pitch computer are you using?
Old 16 hours ago
  #8
Lives for gear
 

Verified Member
Unless you are trying to keep the path analogue as a project (which I presume not seeing as you're happy to got digital with that old Behringer thing) why don't you want to use plugins?

Does it matter if the maths is done by a computer or a circuit really?
Old 10 hours ago
  #9
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Justin P.'s Avatar
 

Verified Member
Great video, but skip to 6:25 related to loudness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYQi...X-Oh9WGXOz3KGE
Old 5 hours ago
  #10
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misjah's Avatar
 

Verified Member
If you’re not cutting yourself leave it to the cutting room to make those adjustments.
Old 1 hour ago
  #11
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Greg Reierson's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin P. View Post
Great video, but skip to 6:25 related to loudness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYQi...X-Oh9WGXOz3KGE
Better than most.

Distortion is cause by tracing errors (the stylus not following the exact shape of the groove). Tracking problems cause skipping. It just one of those terminology things (like when people say phase but mean polarity) but it's good to know what each term means.

00:45: Fear of LF is very common on the internet but is often overstated. It's also the easiest for a cutting engineer to deal with. Much easer than sibilance since it's relatively transparent to fix it.

00:53: Cool animation!

01:29: Actually, this is done because vertical has more distortion due to tracing issues and is more prone to mis-tracking. Some early mono discs were cut this way.

02:30: Don't use a phase meter unless you've been staring into one for years and understand what it's telling you. It will not tell you anything useful about vertical (stereo) LF content. And rather than listening to the sum (mono), listen to the difference. Invert polarity and then sum to mono. This is the vertical channel. If there is heavy LF here then it might cause trouble but it has to be pretty significant – which is rare.

03:58: YES !!!!!! Sibilance and excessive HF content are the most important things a mixing engineer needs to worry about. I'd guess 9 out of 10 issues I have as a cutting engineer are HF and distortion related. This is a good explanation of the what and why of RIAA EQ.

05:27: Another very nice animation and a good explanation – remembering that the issue is tracing, not tracking. The scale is wrong but the idea is right.

06:10: The issue with limiting and clipping is that it severely changes the shape of the waveform which severely changes the shape of the groove which can lead to tracing distortion. This is a frequent conversation I have with mixing and mastering engineers. A conscientious engineering will do whatever they can to make things work. OTOH, it's not so fun if they say their master sounds good and the artist is happy with it and I should just cut it and stop complaining. Fine, but a jagged waveform makes a jagged groove and is much harder for a stylus to follow the exact shape of the groove. Having the conversation early can prevent lots of problems further down the line, like when I have to remind the “just cut it the way it is” crowd that I was worried about that level of HF causing the distortion they are now hearing on their test pressing...

06:25: Maybe. The real issue cutting engineers fear is sending too much HF to the head. Because of the RIAA encoded signal, the current and temp meters react to HF content, not overall level.

07:33: Song sequencing is a balance of artistic expression and format limitation. It's a matter of physics that the outer bands sound better than the inner bands. Play a well known record from the '70s when vinyl was king and notice that the hits are usually songs 1 and 2 and the inner songs tend to be ballads. This rule is broken for artistic reasons but it's definitely true that inner bands suffer much more distortion and HF limitations than outer bands. Classical often has the opposite structure with the big crescendo at the end. There are different tonearm geometries to mitigate that problem but that's a conversation for another day.

09:30: Everything he says here is spot-on! It's hard to overstate the importance of a relationship with the cutting engineer. Most cutting issues can be prevented by a quick conversation rather than having to chase what went wrong in an unknown cutting room a month ago. An engineer cutting your record with you in mind is very different than an engineer who has 20 sides to cut on any given day and doesn't have time to think past “will this skip?”.
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