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Comparing a Vinyl Master to my original mix. Realistic expectations?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dietrich10 View Post
22.5 minutes you will have some typical inner groove distortion issues on the last 5 minute of each side. also I always cut with hp/lp filters on and start @ 30hz and 18k. You should not expect to hear anything over 14khz prominent on the vinyl
Curious. How steep are the filters, sir?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #32
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
If they sent you separate, oversize discs for the two sides, those are refs and they came off the lathe. If it's the size of a record and has two sides it's a test pressing, and just like the ones that go out to the world.
Umm...no. We have 12" blanks as well and we can cut refs on both sides.

It probably is a test pressing, but there are other ways to tell. First, a test pressing feels just the same as all the albums you've ever had in your hands, in terms of weight and flexibility. A reference disk is cut on a blank that has aluminum in the center, and a soft acetate coating on both sides. As a result it's noticeably heavier and stiffer. The first time you pick one up you'll notice the difference. And there should be a label. One side of a test pressing may have a blank white label, but at least one side would normally have a label with the pressing plant's name and something indicating that it's a test pressing. If it's a ref it would usually have peel and stick labels, often with the mastering facility's name and either typed or hand written text identifying the program.

But back to the OP's question: Apparently there were several steps between your work and the disk you want to evaluate, steps you weren't involved in. Additionally you seem to be inserting questionable steps in your playback, including a so-so turntable and a digital conversion with so-so converters. I suggest that if you are really interested in evaluating the sound of the record you should get a clean direct signal path. And as someone else pointed out, you should get the file that was provided to the cutting engineer. Then if you compare your mix to the mastered file and to the disk you will probably learn a lot more.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bodyslam View Post
Umm...no. We have 12" blanks as well and we can cut refs on both sides.
My experience isn't with lots of different mastering studios, mainly one. They'd do "test spot" cutting on both sides of a blank but the refs I got were always just one-sided. Other folks may do it differently.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louderock View Post
Just received a vinyl master ref to approve. On first listen, it seems that the bandwidth got narrowed down a bit. Like there's a Hi and Lo pass filter going. Not drastic but it's there. Everything sounds softer too. In my mix there's a thump on the snare that you can feel. The vinyl master doesn't have this. You only hear the snare... you don't feel the thump.
Around 45 minutes total of music.
So the question is, what are the limitations of the vinyl medium and what should I expect to hear vs my original mix?
Disclaimer: Audio Technica turntable which is most definitely not 'Hi-Fi'.
Thanks
Well vinyl playback is really a different system of playback first of all. The turntable itself, the cartridge, the tonearm, even the tonearm cable, not to mention the phono amplifier in yours or someone else's preamp/integrated (or separate phono preamp) makes a world of differences, many variables. A mid-fi, as compared to a genuine hifi component in that chain can make a huge diff too.

In any event, the "sound" of vinyl seems softer and less dynamic (unless one has the very high end turntable equipment chain). Digital is much more dynamic and has better channel separation, less crosstalk. So if you are used to listening to digital equipment in general, the vinyl will sound softer, more subdued, and less detailed probably. On the other hand, think analog synthesizers. They are less defined and much of that world is monophonic. Stereo really opens up the sound stage and digital gives more details and dynamics. But....some prefer the analog, mono sound.

25 minutes a side is normal on a record. Why does you mix sound different than you remember or via digital playback? The LP playback system changes it, the vinyl cutting machine changes it too, and some would argue the vinyl itself affects the fidelity of the sound.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #35
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Exactly the kind of info I'm looking for. Vinyl has "a sound" but I'm also a bit limited in my basic vinyl playback setup. Many more variables introduced vs. comparing a digital master to my digital mixes. I know What I'm hearing, I just want to know Why I'm hearing it. Vinyl doesn't come up very often.

This isn't a slamming rock record with no dynamics. More of an acoustic based thing with drums.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #36
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Apologies in advance if this is a bit blunt

Quote:
Originally Posted by choppie61 View Post
Last year i had to make a CD master and a Vinyl master. Which was my first. Before I studied all material and articles available on Vinyl mastering and this is what I learned.
Vinyl has a limited frequency range compared to Compact Disc.
This means you have to careful with punch and drive below 60-80 Hz. If there is too much energy below 80, the needle might jump out of the groove. On the other side vinyl will be fine up to 16Khz and above this frequency it will be more difficult to transfer to the needle. Some physics involved here with weight, size and movement.
Another thing I learned is that if you want to press more than 14 minutes on one side the grooves will get closer to one another and the quality diminishes more or less. The closer the grooves are the easier the needle will jump. (not perse out of the grooves but it loses contact)
This is why I chose to publish 14 tracks on Vinyl (14-16 min/side) and 22 on the CD.
On mastering you can chose to increase around 80 Hz and slope down from 80 to 35. I did cut all below 30. On the other side I gave a tiny boost between 10-16Khz en and cut or low pass above 16Khz. (Fabfilter Q3 is recommended for this but many EQs wil do)

I hope this info helps.
The only thing this post helps, is with the spreading misinformation
Old 2 weeks ago
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTransition View Post
The only thing this post helps, is with the spreading misinformation
And why is that? Can you use at least some arguments instead of dropping a bom?
Who are you?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choppie61 View Post
And why is that? Can you use at least some arguments instead of dropping a bom?
Who are you?
Where did you read all of that? It's true that the operational window of vinyl is smaller than that of CD (you can't cut 16k at 0VU for example) but there is quite a bit here that's not quite right.

Don't boost between 10k and 16K unless you want it to sound boosted there. In general, don't compensate for anything you think vinyl is going to do. That's the job of the cutting engineer. The only exception is de-essing and controlling excessive HF. Too much HF is what causes trouble on vinyl way more often than LF. There has to be a hell of a lot of energy below 80Hz to cause tracking issues. Big transients are more likely to cause skipping than LF energy. Do not slope down from 80Hz to 35Hz. The cutting engineer will control LF but only if necessary.

One can get much more than 14 minutes on a 12" side at 33 1/3. Understanding that it's program dependent; 18 is a nice length, 20 works fine, 22 is starting to push it, yet lots of sides are longer than 22. More compromises have to be made for longer sides such as decreased cutting level or decreased LF (LF takes up more space on the disc) or both.

Groove spacing has no bearing on sound quality.

Stop reading what the internet thinks you should do for vinyl. Talk to your cutting engineer.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choppie61 View Post
And why is that? Can you use at least some arguments instead of dropping a bom?
Who are you?
What Greg said,
Imo the best way to learn how to mix for vinyl is to actually attend a session,ask questions and listen to the test cuts.
I should also point out that not all Cutting systems are capable of the same results.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #40
DAH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Reierson View Post
Where did you read all of that? It's true that the operational window of vinyl is smaller than that of CD (you can't cut 16k at 0VU for example) but there is quite a bit here that's not quite right.

Don't boost between 10k and 16K unless you want it to sound boosted there. In general, don't compensate for anything you think vinyl is going to do. That's the job of the cutting engineer. The only exception is de-essing and controlling excessive HF. Too much HF is what causes trouble on vinyl way more often than LF. There has to be a hell of a lot of energy below 80Hz to cause tracking issues. Big transients are more likely to cause skipping than LF energy. Do not slope down from 80Hz to 35Hz. The cutting engineer will control LF but only if necessary.

One can get much more than 14 minutes on a 12" side at 33 1/3. Understanding that it's program dependent; 18 is a nice length, 20 works fine, 22 is starting to push it, yet lots of sides are longer than 22. More compromises have to be made for longer sides such as decreased cutting level or decreased LF (LF takes up more space on the disc) or both.

Groove spacing has no bearing on sound quality.

Stop reading what the internet thinks you should do for vinyl. Talk to your cutting engineer.
Perfectly put.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAH View Post
Perfectly put.
Greg has a habit of doing that.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTransition View Post
What Greg said,
Imo the best way to learn how to mix for vinyl is to actually attend a session,ask questions and listen to the test cuts.
I should also point out that not all Cutting systems are capable of the same results.
On this we totally agree. If there is time to attend the mix session, master session and listen to the test cuts that would be the best but there is not always time or possibility to do so. Especially when deadline of publication are so close that time for testcutting is not there. Which was in my case. Release was planned at sept 1st and during the summer a lot of cutting/ pressing plants do close in Europe. It was a bold move but I am very happy with the final album.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choppie61 View Post
On this we totally agree. If there is time to attend the mix session, master session and listen to the test cuts that would be the best but there is not always time or possibility to do so. Especially when deadline of publication are so close that time for testcutting is not there. Which was in my case. Release was planned at sept 1st and during the summer a lot of cutting/ pressing plants do close in Europe. It was a bold move but I am very happy with the final album.
As long as you are happy with the results then that's good.

Jason Goz
Transition Mastering
Old 2 weeks ago
  #44
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Reierson View Post
Where did you read all of that? It's true that the operational window of vinyl is smaller than that of CD (you can't cut 16k at 0VU for example) but there is quite a bit here that's not quite right.

Don't boost between 10k and 16K unless you want it to sound boosted there. In general, don't compensate for anything you think vinyl is going to do. That's the job of the cutting engineer. The only exception is de-essing and controlling excessive HF. Too much HF is what causes trouble on vinyl way more often than LF. There has to be a hell of a lot of energy below 80Hz to cause tracking issues. Big transients are more likely to cause skipping than LF energy. Do not slope down from 80Hz to 35Hz. The cutting engineer will control LF but only if necessary.

One can get much more than 14 minutes on a 12" side at 33 1/3. Understanding that it's program dependent; 18 is a nice length, 20 works fine, 22 is starting to push it, yet lots of sides are longer than 22. More compromises have to be made for longer sides such as decreased cutting level or decreased LF (LF takes up more space on the disc) or both.

Groove spacing has no bearing on sound quality.

Stop reading what the internet thinks you should do for vinyl. Talk to your cutting engineer.
Can we PLEASE make this post a stickie?
Old 1 week ago
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logicbill View Post
If you're plugging a turntable directly into a line level interface like the Omni you will be missing the R.I.A.A. equalization that a phono preamp provides.That would probably sound more than a little bit off. Hi pass and low pass indeed....
That difference would be so extreme - way beyond what he's describing here.

The OP said he has an Audio Technica turntable. These days most of those come with an RIAA phono preamp built in so you can plug into anything with a -10dBv input. It's possible that he's plugged into a +4dBu input and thus experiencing the effects of a mismatch there...

FWIW I have an AT turntable that sounds pretty darn excellent via it's built in phono pre. It's just a relatively cheap knock-off of the Technics 1200. Surprisingly good though!

To the OP - Is your AT turntable one of the newer models with a USB output? If yes, then give that a try just to see if it makes a difference. Even though the built in ADC may be questionable, it still could eliminate any possible issues with phono pres or line levels...
Old 1 week ago
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trakworx View Post
That difference would be so extreme - way beyond what he's describing here.

The OP said he has an Audio Technica turntable. These days most of those come with an RIAA phono preamp built in so you can plug into anything with a -10dBv input. It's possible that he's plugged into a +4dBu input and thus experiencing the effects of a mismatch there...

FWIW I have an AT turntable that sounds pretty darn excellent via it's built in phono pre. It's just a relatively cheap knock-off of the Technics 1200. Surprisingly good though!

To the OP - Is your AT turntable one of the newer models with a USB output? If yes, then give that a try just to see if it makes a difference. Even though the built in ADC may be questionable, it still could eliminate any possible issues with phono pres or line levels...
It's the basic AT turntable I got from Amazon and it has switchable phono or line level outs. I fed the line outs to my HD Omni interface with the inputs switched to -10 on the Hardware setup page. I did have to adjust the speed on it. It was a bit speedy.
Old 1 week ago
  #47
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by choppie61 View Post
Last year i had to make a CD master and a Vinyl master. Which was my first. Before I studied all material and articles available on Vinyl mastering and this is what I learned.
Vinyl has a limited frequency range compared to Compact Disc.
This means you have to careful with punch and drive below 60-80 Hz. If there is too much energy below 80, the needle might jump out of the groove. On the other side vinyl will be fine up to 16Khz and above this frequency it will be more difficult to transfer to the needle. Some physics involved here with weight, size and movement.
Another thing I learned is that if you want to press more than 14 minutes on one side the grooves will get closer to one another and the quality diminishes more or less. The closer the grooves are the easier the needle will jump. (not perse out of the grooves but it loses contact)
This is why I chose to publish 14 tracks on Vinyl (14-16 min/side) and 22 on the CD.
On mastering you can chose to increase around 80 Hz and slope down from 80 to 35. I did cut all below 30. On the other side I gave a tiny boost between 10-16Khz en and cut or low pass above 16Khz. (Fabfilter Q3 is recommended for this but many EQs wil do)
And don't forget that is has to be less loud than your CD master. I don't remember exactly but I think I used -18 db Lufs.

I hope this info helps.
Sorry. Lot's of misinformation here. LF does not cause a skip when cut properly. A good pitch system will accommodate for the excursion. LF information that is drastically out of phase can be an issue, but even then most modern systems will cut it fine. Also, the "closeness of the grooves" (there's only one groove) has nothing to do with tracking unless they over cut. Re:level. That all depends on side length and frequency content. The cutting engineer will make that determination.
Old 6 days ago
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Lyman View Post
Sorry. Lot's of misinformation here. LF does not cause a skip when cut properly. A good pitch system will accommodate for the excursion. LF information that is drastically out of phase can be an issue, but even then most modern systems will cut it fine. Also, the "closeness of the grooves" (there's only one groove) has nothing to do with tracking unless they over cut. Re:level. That all depends on side length and frequency content. The cutting engineer will make that determination.
Hi Pete,
No intention to spread misinformation.
The recordplant I worked with gave me this information about the low ens and the length of the duration per side. (closeness of the grooves, especially around the center). I suppose you are right about the low end being out of phase.
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