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Streaky - he can hear a difference in power cables?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IanBSC View Post
So, Conundra was correct. D and E are the same cable, the Shunyata Alpha. F is the 14 AWG cables.

I personally prefer the sound of Shunyata, however in comparison the stock cords sound qualitatively thicker and louder. I can see how some might prefer that.

The only difference between passes D and E on my end is that the converters on D had been powered on for 20 minutes, and in E for 45 minutes. F was on for 20 minutes also.
I guessed same as Conunda.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #482
Gear Nut
 

Question.

From a quick reading of the brochure,
Shunyata NR is a cable embedding filters.
In that respect is a sort of rudimental power conditioning device.

Can we still call It "cable"?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #483
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stixstudios's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mudseason View Post
Question.

From a quick reading of the brochure,
Shunyata NR is a cable embedding filters.
In that respect is a sort of rudimental power conditioning device.

Can we still call It "cable"?
NO!!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #484
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IanBSC's Avatar
It turns out I wasn't the first to do power cable comparison files:

VOVOX Initio Power Vs ordinary cable.

These are Vovox power cables, lest anyone think that the only reason the Shunyatas sound different than stock cables is because of the noise filters...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #485
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Surbitone's Avatar
Funniest thread ever.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #486
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Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Someone should redo that hitl*r video on youtube,

but make it about him finding out that his tracks were mastered with ordinary power cables instead of premium ones.

~ jt ~
Old 4 weeks ago
  #487
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Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Oops, double post... removed it just now.

Last edited by Jerry Tubb; 4 weeks ago at 11:56 AM..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #488
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login's Avatar
It seems to me that quite a few companies in this industry take advantage of artists that have poor education in science.

The lack of evidence when presenting this assumptions about cables is insulting, neither math models to prove it, or properly conducted experiments. It is all a big joke
Old 4 weeks ago
  #489
Gear Nut
I’m just gonna play devils advocate here, but if one of the worlds greatest mastering engineers “Bob Ludwig” can hear a difference in cabling who are all you skeptics to say there isn’t any difference in up to par cables? I personally don’t know because I can’t afford any better cabling than Mogami, but I have to trust when an engineer like Bob Ludwig says that there’s a difference, that there just may be a difference.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #490
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robert82's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kushyman View Post
I’m just gonna play devils advocate here, but if one of the worlds greatest mastering engineers “Bob Ludwig” can hear a difference in cabling who are all you skeptics to say there isn’t any difference in up to par cables? I personally don’t know because I can’t afford any better cabling than Mogami, but I have to trust when an engineer like Bob Ludwig says that there’s a difference, that there just may be a difference.
Ludwig's 75. Likely can't hear anything over 10kH.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #491
Gear Guru
Cables may help for what 2% or something? Especially power ones......
I'm still in the how to make 98% of my sound better......Fun to read tho....
Old 4 weeks ago
  #492
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
Ludwig's 75. Likely can't hear anything over 10kH.
Have you read the stats on youths' hearing tests ?!?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surbitone View Post
Funniest thread ever.
Yes. Both the thread and some of the posters.
“Funny” in every sense of the word.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #494
Gear Nut
 

ok,

consider the following:
Outlet-->device1-->device2
for ANY device1, would you exclude any impact on device2?

I would not.

May be what's weak is the definition of "cable".

For many (I include myself), cable is what brings to device2 what's coming out from the outlet, I consider a 10€ cable more than adequate to its purpose.

For some a "cable" is still a cable (a f*** rope that brings current) even if it also provides a conditioning of the Outlet.

Couldn't be the case?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #495
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login's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kushyman View Post
I’m just gonna play devils advocate here, but if one of the worlds greatest mastering engineers “Bob Ludwig” can hear a difference in cabling who are all you skeptics to say there isn’t any difference in up to par cables? I personally don’t know because I can’t afford any better cabling than Mogami, but I have to trust when an engineer like Bob Ludwig says that there’s a difference, that there just may be a difference.

I am going to point out your argument is an appeal to authority a quite obvious logical fallacy.

If the expert presents evidence of the form of an experiment which complies with science basic requirements then it would be great, statements without any significant evidence are just opinions.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #496
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lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis View Post
Cables may help for what 2% or something? Especially power ones......
I'm still in the how to make 98% of my sound better......Fun to read tho....
Definitely the last 2-5%, yet so is the DA, and the Compressor and the rest. It's a game of small gains, stacked. For example, my chain is not my chain without Amperex brand EF 86 tubes from 1956-1962 in the output stage. Or without the L2 hardware at 1.5 db limiting.


A short chain, in a great room, means that EVERYTHING becomes big. here is no "big" and no "small" in the land of Quality.


Those are ideas from the land of Quantity.


Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
Ludwig's 75. Likely can't hear anything over 10kH.
Super rude. Not the point. Cables are audible the whole range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kushyman View Post
I’m just gonna play devils advocate here, but if one of the worlds greatest mastering engineers “Bob Ludwig” can hear a difference in cabling who are all you skeptics to say there isn’t any difference in up to par cables? I personally don’t know because I can’t afford any better cabling than Mogami, but I have to trust when an engineer like Bob Ludwig says that there’s a difference, that there just may be a difference.
You are triggering the insecurity of armchair engineers, not gonna work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by login View Post
I am going to point out your argument is an appeal to authority a quite obvious logical fallacy.

If the expert presents evidence of the form of an experiment which complies with science basic requirements then it would be great, statements without any significant evidence are just opinions.
Music is not a science project. And Listening is an art. Like making music.

The credentials are the proof, in this arena. Not only Bob but most of us hear it … the question is … why don't you? AND … why do you care so much if you don't? Focus on what you DO hear and get better … this is a waste of your music making, music engineering time. Massive insecurity disguised as logical superiority.

If we can't do an accurate AB, our work would simply suck, all of it. And we don't suck.



Jules always makes money on these threads .. pages of those who trust their ears vs. those who don't.

It takes a refined room and refined ear to hear things, and it's like abortion … don't want to do it? Fine.

So … STFU and go make some music someone wants to hear. Certainly your words might then carry some weight to someone other than your buddies in the basement.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #497
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IanBSC's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by login View Post
I am going to point out your argument is an appeal to authority a quite obvious logical fallacy.

If the expert presents evidence of the form of an experiment which complies with science basic requirements then it would be great, statements without any significant evidence are just opinions.
You dont need experts. All you have to do is go back one page and try to null the files I posted. Or try to null the files in the Vovox comparison thread.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #498
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
Ludwig's 75. Likely can't hear anything over 10kH.
I read your rude reply, that you deleted ... and I'm going to help you out instead of the other options. I understand it's frustrating and it's easy to project there is some superiority being thrown around ... yet that is not true.

I like your ambient music, cool stuff. You mean well. So let me offer an idea ... in 3 stages

1. A VERY fast way to hear cables... is to try various instrument cables on an acoustic guitar. Those are easy to spot. Do that first.

2. In the studio at line level it's harder and I don't know if your SYSTEM has the resolution to show you the differences. So get a copper and a silver pair of XLRs, and swap them out, and record each one 3 times.

Once you hear that, you can look at copper line level vs copper line level.

3. If you were, for example, to buy a 3 foot pair or longer pair of Acoustic Zen Matrix Ref II and a pair of the same length of their Absolute copper, you would hear what is to me a HUGE difference. Huge.



Listening is a whole body experience, not a head thing. All about stillness of body and mind ... it's as important to drop skepticism as it is to drop the positive projections on higher prices. Just relax, feel the sound, and listen.



Keep in mind, someone like Jeff at Sonic Craft in Texas hears diodes, resistors, solder, capacitors of course, and sells all those based their tone ... cables are a joke argument to his world. And yes, he is an Electrical Engineer by training. Many of the top manufacturers have asked him for advice over the decades, and they can only afford to do 5-20% of the possible upgrades to meet the market. In other words, we live a world of consumer market junk, even at the top end.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #499
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stixstudios's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey View Post
I read your rude reply, that you deleted ... and I'm going to help you out instead of the other options. I understand it's frustrating and it's easy to project there is some superiority being thrown around ... yet that is not true.

I like your ambient music, cool stuff. You mean well. So let me offer an idea ... in 3 stages

1. A VERY fast way to hear cables... is to try various instrument cables on an acoustic guitar. Those are easy to spot. Do that first.

2. In the studio at line level it's harder and I don't know if your SYSTEM has the resolution to show you the differences. So get a copper and a silver pair of XLRs, and swap them out, and record each one 3 times.

Once you hear that, you can look at copper line level vs copper line level.

3. If you were, for example, to buy a 3 foot pair or longer pair of Acoustic Zen Matrix Ref II and a pair of the same length of their Absolute copper, you would hear what is to me a HUGE difference. Huge.



Listening is a whole body experience, not a head thing. All about stillness of body and mind ... it's as important to drop skepticism as it is to drop the positive projections on higher prices. Just relax, feel the sound, and listen.



Keep in mind, someone like Jeff at Sonic Craft in Texas hears diodes, resistors, solder, capacitors of course, and sells all those based their tone ... cables are a joke argument to his world. And yes, he is an Electrical Engineer by training. Many of the top manufacturers have asked him for advice over the decades, and they can only afford to do 5-20% of the possible upgrades to meet the market. In other words, we live a world of consumer market junk, even at the top end.
With all due respect Lucey, we are talking about POWER cables!! NOT instrument cables, where most of us would agree that instrument cables will make a difference especially when they are long. Same with speaker cables etc.

The OP's question was about POWER cables seemingly making a difference to the sound quality.

Please, let's get this pointless and stupid thread back on track.

Cheers.

Last edited by stixstudios; 3 weeks ago at 05:13 AM.. Reason: Not telling.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #500
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by stixstudios View Post
The OP's question was about POWER cables seemingly making a difference to the sound quality.

Please, let's get this pointless and stupid thread back on track.

Cheers.
Great point. Let’s organize this nonsense !

Power cables are even more subtle in most applications… But if there are for example only a few components it can be an important thing... to someone. If not you ... move on.

It’s a basic physics question ... is there anything in the universe that has no effect? Is not in motion? Answer: no
Old 3 weeks ago
  #501
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
A lot of fairy tales indeed for so called Mastering ENGINEERS.

Where is the engineering in this thread?
Just because some claim they hear it, so it's above science and it's about engineering?

Mastering music is very far from any engineering these days...
Nothing so called about it. So rude.

Recording music was always about listening and the music, it's not a science project. Science is the tool, to make the gear and after that it's all ears and skill and creativity.

Idiotic post.

Engineers can measure capacitance and test cables too.


Some of you are just so lost, which would be fine, if not for the attitude.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #502
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stixstudios's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey View Post
Cables can be measured, and even then, if you can't hear it and then CHOOSE HOW TO USE IT, the test is as meaningless as any test in audio...
You do remember that we are talking about POWER Cables - Not Audio Cables - Right?

I like to immerse my power cables in a bath of "Salad Cream" then plug into my AD/DA converter. It makes it sound nice and smooth and creamy. I did try it once with French Dijon Mustard, but found the high end a little too harsh and brittle for my tastes, although I could hear a difference at 192Kz, but nevertheless, I did go back to the salad cream. If anyone is interested, I think the brand was Heinz.

Someone mentioned earlier that this thread was pretty much the most stupid of 2019, I'll go one step further and say it's the most stupid and ill-informed thread on this forum for the last decade. Let's not make it so for the new decade.

Last edited by stixstudios; 3 weeks ago at 01:56 PM.. Reason: Who knows.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #503
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by stixstudios View Post
You do remember that we are talking about POWER Cables - Not Audio Cables - Right?
Seems to be about both, selectively.

I'm out ... enjoy fellas.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #504
Gear Head
 
S_mask's Avatar
 

RIght. I mean, can anyone show on an oscilloscope or an FFT or a DMM any repeatable difference, however minute, in audio that's transferred through the same processor using one power cable rather than another? The processor in the comparison will have a transformer, diode bridge, filter caps, and regulator(s), shielding the audio from the mains. Only one of the power cables should be expensive. If it can't be shown and is only something that can be heard, how do we know the anecdote isn't merely proof that Donny's getting subconscious cues from a large rabbit (with fangs)? (;
Old 3 weeks ago
  #505
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stixstudios's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey View Post
Seems to be about both, selectively...
Exactly Lucey, and it shouldn't have been.

It was always, and still should be about whether one can hear a difference between various power cables. Simple.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #506
Gear Head
 
S_mask's Avatar
 

Well, if one actually can hear the difference in sound from using a different power cable in a regulated, galvanically-isolated processor, it should be able to be shown on some screen - thereby proving disinterested objectivity in the claim. On the other hand, if one merely thinks he can hear it, but it can't ever be shown, it's looking like an expectation illusion or, worse, a marketing scam using 'interested' advocates. This is 2020. Fire up your signal analyzers and show us how to prove for ourselves that your auditory hallucination is no such thing.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #507
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stixstudios's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by S_mask View Post
Well, if one actually can hear the difference in sound from using a different power cable in a regulated, galvanically-isolated processor, it should be able to be shown on some screen - thereby proving disinterested objectivity in the claim. On the other hand, if one merely thinks he can hear it, but it can't ever be shown, it's looking like an expectation illusion or, worse, a marketing scam using 'interested' advocates. This is 2020. Fire up your signal analyzers and show us how to prove for ourselves that your auditory hallucination is no such thing.
Exactly!... It should be easy enough to prove or disprove - ie. power cable influence on sonic qualities blaaaa.

Some of the testing that has been done on this forum recently (I won't mention any names) was absolutely ridiculous and flawed, in that there was more than one variable, and the methods were un-scientific to say the least!!!

I've done research and testing in a different field (pyrotechnics). Research and testing, then measuring the results with proper test equipment is important. Also making sure to only change ONE variable is of the utmost importance.

Test, then test again. Go back to square one, then change something else. One variable at a time. Test, check, evaluate, then go forward. This is a sound scientific method.

In my research (pyrotechnics), a wrong move could end in devastating consequences.

Power cables with Audio equipment, not a big deal. Nevertheless, do your testing properly - one variable at a time.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #508
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IanBSC's Avatar
Invariably people who demand proof in these threads completely ignore it when presented to them, the same thing happens in sample rate threads. I put a ton of effort to placate hostile voices in this thread, and not one of them has even acknowledged the evidence I presented.

I posted one set of files recorded by someone else, which had some serious problems, but none of them impacted the ability to hear the difference of the blind test. Because of the criticism, I did my own test with different equipment, making sure to avoid the problems of the previous one, and the results were similar except now they can be nulled and compared by the measurephiles. Then I linked to someone else who did a similar comparison test providing more evidence. Crickets.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IanBSC View Post
Invariably people who demand proof in these threads completely ignore it when presented to them, the same thing happens in sample rate threads. I put a ton of effort to placate hostile voices in this thread, and not one of them has even acknowledged the evidence I presented.

I posted one set of files recorded by someone else, which had some serious problems, but none of them impacted the ability to hear the difference of the blind test. Because of the criticism, I did my own test with different equipment, making sure to avoid the problems of the previous one, and the results were similar except now they can be nulled and compared by the measurephiles. Then I linked to someone else who did a similar comparison test providing more evidence. Crickets.
If someone wanted some more data points they could do this

PLAYBACK-----Power amp------Reactive load box (line out)----DAW.

Then they could a/b/x and null test. The question remains though, how close a reactive load box made to mimic a gtr cab would be to full range speaker.

However, logically, if a load box made to mimic a speaker with less transient response and frequency range showed a difference then there would be as much or even greater difference with a full range speaker.

This test would remove room acoustics/mic/pre amps all from the test, although wouldn't be correct to measure any change in quality.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #510
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b0se's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by IanBSC View Post
Invariably people who demand proof in these threads completely ignore it when presented to them, the same thing happens in sample rate threads. I put a ton of effort to placate hostile voices in this thread, and not one of them has even acknowledged the evidence I presented.

I posted one set of files recorded by someone else, which had some serious problems, but none of them impacted the ability to hear the difference of the blind test. Because of the criticism, I did my own test with different equipment, making sure to avoid the problems of the previous one, and the results were similar except now they can be nulled and compared by the measurephiles. Then I linked to someone else who did a similar comparison test providing more evidence. Crickets.
That's why it's never worth it (from either side), it ends up being a battle of right vs wrong. It's a waste of time/energy, better used making music or doing whatever makes you warm and fuzzy. If something works for you, do it. I don't believe in organised religion, but many people are much stronger for it. All good. Google Ruby Bridges.

Personally I don't believe that £££ power cables (assuming a solid circuit/power source) makes a difference, and I had a hard time hearing differences in the latter batches of files. Does that mean I'm right? No. I just know that for me, it doesn't matter - I can use well made cables and aim my GAS at something else If you genuinely can (and it seems some here can), or just think you can, splash that cash if it makes you feel more productive and confident about your work. That's all that matters really.
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