The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Streaky - he can hear a difference in power cables?
Old 7th December 2019
  #331
Lives for gear
 
monomer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
perhaps it’s how the electrons flow through the power (& other) cables that make a difference.

plus the impurities in the metal, how the metal is extruded, etc.
Nah, not going to influence power if it can carry the power you take from it.
Any power supply you hook up to that power wil buffer the energy, often multiple times, in buckets called capacitors. Any influence from the flow of electrons in the cables before is erased at that point.
Old 7th December 2019
  #332
Lives for gear
 
FabienTDR's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post
Nah, not going to influence power if it can carry the power you take from it.
Any power supply you hook up to that power wil buffer the energy, often multiple times, in buckets called capacitors. Any influence from the flow of electrons in the cables before is erased at that point.
This doesn't fit into a heliocentric point of view. Prepare yourself seeing this pivotal point being walked around with greatest care.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #333
Lives for gear
 
Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post
Nah, not going to influence power if it can carry the power you take from it.
Any power supply you hook up to that power wil buffer the energy, often multiple times, in buckets called capacitors. Any influence from the flow of electrons in the cables before is erased at that point.
Now ~ THAT~ I understand, Good Point!

Here’s a pic of the large Mepco Capacitors on my ATR-100 after we rebuilt the power suppy.

cheers, jt
Attached Thumbnails
Streaky - he can hear a difference in power cables?-4680419b-ca8a-4a23-b1f2-d36955ff84b5.jpg  

Last edited by Jerry Tubb; 4 weeks ago at 04:48 PM..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #334
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Verified Member
The word "should" must always be substituted for the word "will" in these discussions!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #335
Lives for gear
 
X-Pand Sound Mastering's Avatar
 

Verified Member
I thought I leave this here :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iunBAzr8GK0

On topic at 25.15 minutes in the video
Old 4 weeks ago
  #336
Gear Head
 
S_mask's Avatar
 

Well, there she's talking about being able to measure (and, therefore, should be able to demonstrate to others visually) that interstage cable capacitance matters. Mr. Macneal (of Audio Drive) often mentions using low capacitance cabling, finding computer ribbon cable to be suitably low for interstage purposes. Steve Lampen of Belden is going to point to low capacitance between conductors in his company's very nice MediaTwist (which I use for long throws of analog as well as AES/EBU). Mogami's 3080 is a nice flexible cable having stranded wires at only 14 p(u)f(fs), as our Ethan calls it. The problem with the power cable matters narrative is when people can't demonstrate a visual to go along with the auditory anecdote, so it gets easily dismissed as expectation bias delusion (on the part of the enthusiast) or fraud (on the part of the advertiser). Neither Burgess nor the late Dunlavy used their ears to tune their audio products so popular in mastering circles. They use oscilloscopes and spectrum analyzers - even the MLSSA. They use pen and paper and then take measurements, as EveAnna was doing in search of a better mic pre circuit's cables. Please post photos of your instruments' read-outs so that we won't have to take your well-meaning, but possibly biased word for it, if claiming that a power amp's regulated outputs are telegraphing power line anomalies into your audio, innit?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #337
Lives for gear
A long time ago in France in an audio salon, Dunlavy came without an hp cable. He bought orange extension cords from a DIY store.
The visitors of the Dunlavy stand were amazed by the fantastic sound coming from the speakers.
Dunlavy left the Paris salon desperate. All the visitors asked him for the cables reference and nothing on these speakers.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #338
DAH
Lives for gear
 
DAH's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinococcus View Post
A long time ago in France in an audio salon, Dunlavy came without an hp cable. He bought orange extension cords from a DIY store.
The visitors of the Dunlavy stand were amazed by the fantastic sound coming from the speakers.
Dunlavy left the Paris salon desperate. All the visitors asked him for the cables reference and nothing on these speakers.
First hand experience? Nice story if yes
Old 4 weeks ago
  #339
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAH View Post
First hand experience? Nice story if yes
Not first hand but by someone I know who I trust completely.

A sad story showing the collapse of the audiophile world.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #340
Lives for gear
 
robert82's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by S_mask View Post
Please post photos of your instruments' read-outs so that we won't have to take your well-meaning, but possibly biased word for it, if claiming that a power amp's regulated outputs are telegraphing power line anomalies into your audio, innit?
Welp, there goes 98% of participants in cable threads!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #341
Lives for gear
It's total bs.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #342
It will cost you $29 to find out.
www.audioadvisor.com
Old 3 weeks ago
  #343
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by S_mask View Post
...Neither Burgess nor the late Dunlavy used their ears to tune their audio products so popular in mastering circles. They use oscilloscopes and spectrum analyzers - even the MLSSA. They use pen and paper and then take measurements, as EveAnna was doing in search of a better mic pre circuit's cables...
They ALSO used their ears and measured different things until they could isolate whatever was causing the problem they were hearing.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #344
Gear Head
 
S_mask's Avatar
 

Quote:
They ALSO used their ears and measured different things until they could isolate whatever was causing the problem they were hearing.
That's just not what I heard from Mr. Macneal about how he works. He was unambiguous about using only visual feedback at Audio Drive - not even trusting his ears to judge what he's striving for in an equalizer. And Professor Dunlavy's words that I've read say that the listening tests at DAL were only for factory visitors. Neither engineer needed to use his ears and both are/were mindful of the pitfalls of gear-engineering from the right hemisphere, so to speak. Sure, when Burgess was cutting transcription discs, like any M. E., he needed to use his ears in order to assess the aesthetics of doing nothing, or applying something, to a recording. But to design a better EQ board, the 'scope was the master. To fine-tune a cross-over (which are sometimes dissimilarly-packed for 'matched' speaker cabinets, A and B), Dunlavy put each speaker cab in an anechoic chamber with a measurement microphone and determined the performance using the MLSSA, entirely visually.

If one cable is working better than another, it ought to be measureable. We can measure much more than we can hear. Some people can't even hear the Wood Effect. RoundTrip much? (;
Old 3 weeks ago
  #345
Lives for gear
 
robert82's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by S_mask View Post
. . . . We can measure much more than we can hear. . . .
I expect a chorus of dissent on this statement.
Great post.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #346
Lives for gear
The cable debates are an eternal restart.

+1 for S_mask
Old 3 weeks ago
  #347
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Verified Member
I can only go by what John Dunlavy actually told me.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #348
Lives for gear
John Dunlavy has a message for you Bob

John Dunlavy: Oh, no. Listening comes later. Because if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

So, to those who like to call us "technocrats" or whatever, we would suggest that those who design by "voicing" loudspeakers are working with an enormous number of perturbations.

https://www.stereophile.com/interviews/163/index.html

Last edited by dinococcus; 3 weeks ago at 01:17 PM..
Old 3 weeks ago
  #349
Gear Maniac
 

from the same article...

"So we try to get the greatest accuracy we can achieve from measurements. Then we begin doing what some people might call "voicing," because the best set of measurements are still open to interpretation."
Old 3 weeks ago
  #350
Gear Guru
I always love people telling someone who actually had a conversation, what the conversation really was about......when they weren't there......
Old 3 weeks ago
  #351
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.333V View Post
from the same article...

"So we try to get the greatest accuracy we can achieve from measurements. Then we begin doing what some people might call "voicing," because the best set of measurements are still open to interpretation."
luckily I linked the full article.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #352
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Verified Member
The very best gear BOTH measures right and sounds right. There is plenty of gear that measures well but doesn't sound very good and vice-versa. When that happens, you simply need to go deeper into the measurements. No two things actually measure the same. It becomes a matter of determining the importance of each measurement. This process is often called voicing. You measure first but then a listening test must also be passed.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #353
Lives for gear
yes Bob, a car needs a voicing.

Bob you has a message from Earl Geddes

Until one understands psychoacoustics and the associated psychology of product evaluations as well as the techniques that are required to reliably test such perceptions, they cannot know how truly difficult it is to get to reality in the audio marketplace. Uncontrolled listening tests won’t get you there, that much is certain. These types of tests have a strong bias towards change for change’s sake (among numerous others) and as such have a tendency to go in circles.

https://www.dagogo.com/an-interview-...of-gedlee-llc/
Old 3 weeks ago
  #354
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis View Post
I always love people telling someone who actually had a conversation, what the conversation really was about......when they weren't there......
Human memory is about as reliable as our senses...

Basic cognitive and perceptual science should be an obligatory part of secondary school education with a smattering of basic philosophy thrown in for good measure. Until then people will keep listening to their egos instead of the science. And look at where all this ego tripping is bringing us: We are destroying our very own habitat and electing crooks and fools to "lead" us. :(

Alistair
Old 3 weeks ago
  #355
Lives for gear
 
IanBSC's Avatar
Another gearslut and I did a test where we recorded a Steely Dan track played back off the Tascam DA3000 into a Pacific Microsonics Model 1 and Model 2, and a pass with each converter using a Shunyata Alpha NR power cable. It would admittedly have been a better test if we used the Shunyata cables on the DA as well as the AD. Nonetheless, in the blind test I was actually able to identify the power cables more reliably than the different converters. The differences were subtle in the comparison for sure, and I've heard them make a much bigger difference with amplifiers and powered monitors, but they were distinct.

After the holidays I will try and post the files.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #356
Lives for gear
 
James Lehmann's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by IanBSC View Post
Another gearslut and I did a test where we recorded a Steely Dan track played back off the Tascam DA3000 into a Pacific Microsonics Model 1 and Model 2, and a pass with each converter using a Shunyata Alpha NR power cable. It would admittedly have been a better test if we used the Shunyata cables on the DA as well as the AD. Nonetheless, in the blind test I was actually able to identify the power cables more reliably than the different converters. The differences were subtle in the comparison for sure, and I've heard them make a much bigger difference with amplifiers and powered monitors, but they were distinct. After the holidays I will try and post the files.
That would be great.

16+ years of this Forum and very few people have ever dared post meaningful WAVs like this, and yet it seems to me interconnects and power cables should be easy to set up a shareable, repeatable test for, unlike speaker and microphone cables.

The key question, I think, is whether you did your listening tests on a third 'discrete' system, rather than on the actual equipment being tested. If you did then it means the data won't null and the WAV files should be subtely different.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #357
Gear Nut
 
jontornblom's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by IanBSC View Post
Another gearslut and I did a test where we recorded a Steely Dan track played back off the Tascam DA3000 into a Pacific Microsonics Model 1 and Model 2, and a pass with each converter using a Shunyata Alpha NR power cable. It would admittedly have been a better test if we used the Shunyata cables on the DA as well as the AD. Nonetheless, in the blind test I was actually able to identify the power cables more reliably than the different converters. The differences were subtle in the comparison for sure, and I've heard them make a much bigger difference with amplifiers and powered monitors, but they were distinct.

After the holidays I will try and post the files.
I’m also interested to hear the tests!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #358
Lives for gear
 
IanBSC's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Lehmann View Post
The key question, I think, is whether you did your listening tests on a third 'discrete' system, rather than on the actual equipment being tested. If you did then it means the data won't null and the WAV files should be subtely different.
Yes, I'm not listening on the Pacific Microsonics DACs. The files were actually sent to me.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #359
Lives for gear
 
MarcB's Avatar
I used to be into high end hifi. I have a few silly cables powering various bits of kit. They're used for convenience/length now rather than their sound quality, as I couldn't hear any difference. I have a USB cable worth more than the korg SQ-1 powering it.

I do have everything audio related, ie a DAC, PC, monitors etc running from a double inline UPS converter for perfect 230v. More so for peace of mind rather than anything else.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #360
Lives for gear
 
IanBSC's Avatar
Ok, so here are the four files comparing both Pacific Microsonics Model 1 and 2 with and without Shunyata Alpha NR power cables. These were done by burns46824, his notes below:

"Source: Tascam DA-3000 playback (via compact flash card) of Steely Dan's "Babylon Sisters" (16/44.1, internal clock) Destination: Pacific Microsonics HDCD (1 & 2) into a Tascam DA-3000 clocked to the Pacific Microsonics via 1-wire AES, recording onto an SD card at 16/44.1 with the standard Pacific Microsonics dither

The four variations, in random order here in this alphanumeric test, are:

HDCD 1 (standard AES power cable)
HDCD 1 (Shunyata Alpha NR power cable)
HDCD 2 (standard AES power cable)
HDCD 2 (Shunyata Alpha NR power cable)
"

Edit: For clarification the Tascam DAC output is connected via XLR to the Pacific Microsonics ADC input. This is testing two different ADCs and two different power cables to the ADCs.

It would probably be a clearer test if we had two Shunyata cables, one for the Tascam DAC and one for the Pacific Microsonics, but IMO this is enough to demonstrate some subtle difference on the ADC, even with the massive Pacific Microsonics power supplies.

I should also note that his studio is using a pretty hefty Equitech isolation transformer, so the AC quality should be pretty good.
Attached Files

Awav.wav (10.44 MB, 278 views)

B.wav (14.27 MB, 284 views)

C.wav (10.53 MB, 277 views)

D.wav (10.25 MB, 274 views)

Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump