The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Streaky - he can hear a difference in power cables?
Old 6 days ago
  #301
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Really flat monitor speakers make a huge difference.
... in a 'Controlled' Room
Old 5 days ago
  #302
Lives for gear
 
Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

Verified Member
perhaps it’s how the electrons flow through the power (& other) cables that make a difference.

plus the impurities in the metal, how the metal is extruded, etc.

if you could observe the flow of electrons in real time, at the molecular level, or even atomic level.

electron microscope turf...

But, i would think just using high quality copper of a sufficient gauge, properly connected (soldered) to the prongs & sockets,

would be sufficient!

cheers, jt

these look pretty good, although i’m not about to spend 300$ on a power cable, the specs on the construction look really good...

i.e. nickel plated brass prongs, crimped and soldered...

https://suncoastaudio.com/product/sh...le-15-amp/amp/

Last edited by Jerry Tubb; 5 days ago at 05:39 PM..
Old 5 days ago
  #303
Lives for gear
 
Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

Verified Member
here is some actual measurement!

https://youtu.be/4qCK--lRFd0

jt
Old 5 days ago
  #304
Gear Nut
 
jontornblom's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
here is some actual measurement!

https://youtu.be/4qCK--lRFd0

jt
590 amps at line voltage is an incredible amount of power. Certainly capable of destroying any piece of audio equipment that tried to pull that amount of current from the mains and probably enough to also hospitalize the user at the rack as well.
Old 5 days ago
  #305
Lives for gear
 
robert82's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
here is some actual measurement!

https://youtu.be/4qCK--lRFd0

jt
Strangely, the comments are turned off for that video.
Old 5 days ago
  #306
Gear Guru
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
That could help explain how “that deaf dumb and blind kid... sure plays a mean pinball”.
HA! Actually was thinking more on the lines of turning up an effect until you "hear" it and then back it down.....

"You won't see or hear me when I fiddle about".........
Old 5 days ago
  #307
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
perhaps it’s how the electrons flow through the power (& other) cables that make a difference.

plus the impurities in the metal, how the metal is extruded, etc.

if you could observe the flow of electrons in real time, at the molecular level, or even atomic level.

electron microscope turf...

But, i would think just using high quality copper of a sufficient gauge, properly connected (soldered) to the prongs & sockets,

would be sufficient!

cheers, jt

these look pretty good, although i’m not about to spend 300$ on a power cable, the specs on the construction look really good...

i.e. nickel plated brass prongs, crimped and soldeered...

https://suncoastaudio.com/product/sh...le-15-amp/amp/

All the common places of the alleged influence of the cables.
Mixed with a top ignorance: flow electronic, molecular level and even atomic level.
And could you explain what is the flow of Dj Electron and you observe it
And and and could you describe what is the MC atomic level with the physics dedicated.

And of course the scientific caution : shunyata

All in one post, great.

Major Tom to ground control.
Old 5 days ago
  #308
Gear Nut
 
jontornblom's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinococcus View Post
All the common places of the alleged influence of the cables.
Mixed with a top ignorance: flow electronic, molecular level and even atomic level.
And could you explain what is the flow of Dj Electron and you observe it
And and and could you describe what is the MC atomic level with the physics dedicated.

And of course the scientific caution : shunyata

All in one post, great.

Major Tom to ground control.
Please don’t disrespect Jerry, I definitely enjoy his contributions to the forum, even if I disagree or question what he says (rare).

If you look up the skin effect, you’ll discover there actually is some difference on how electrons travel through conductors, and YES, it’s frequency dependent. I don’t think it’s a significant factor since stranding mitigates the skin effect up to a pretty high frequency.

So while I don’t think the skin effect would affect high-count stranded audio line cables, nor power cables, to say electron flow is “top ignorance” seems a little...ignorant.

If I’m misunderstanding you, I apologize. There may be some language barrier here.

Edit: to be clear, I’m not suggesting skin effect is a significant factor, I’m just giving an example of a well understood phenomenon in physics where electrons DO take different paths in conductors depending on frequency.
Old 5 days ago
  #309
Gear Guru
OK it's been proven whatever cabling GS uses on their site leads to insanity with high thread counts.......

Raise the shields Jules, raise them for the love of god.......11 pages! I can't hold her steady captain.......
Old 5 days ago
  #310
Lives for gear
 
robert82's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis View Post
OK it's been proven whatever cabling GS uses on their site leads to insanity with high thread counts.......

Raise the shields Jules, raise them for the love of god.......11 pages! I can't hold her steady captain.......
Relax, Scotty. There's just a lot of folks out there bored and half-drunk. And cable threads are the perfect recreation. Now. Phasers set on "stun".
Old 4 days ago
  #311
Lives for gear
 
Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by jontornblom View Post
Please don’t disrespect Jerry, I definitely enjoy his contributions to the forum, even if I disagree or question what he says (rare).
Oh! No offense taken from any GS poster these days.

and Thanks for the kind words!

I really don’t have anything to prove these days, except that i still do good mastering work, have a deep understanding of music, keep my clients happy, and have a good time doing it.

i certainly understand the many different viewpoints on “ordinary vs premium” cable discussions.

scientific testing and data is valid. it’s good to see someone do a current test on a power cable, even if the methods are questionable to some.

anecdotal personal experience is also valid, especially coupled with experienced critical listening.

my comments about quantum mechanics, are just for levity, although on some nano level, the observation effect, collapsing the wave function etc. may actually count. down at the quantum level, reality is very mysterious.

Yes, cheapo power cables will work just fine, until they fail.

But I do enjoy using premium power cables on my analog hardware units, the 35$ variety, it just feels right. good copper & brass, of a more than ample gauge, properly connected to prongs and sockets, good sheilding and insulation, are all good things.

I’ve also got many “el cheapo” power cables in use, especially on digital devices where it may not make any difference, as long as it passes the required amount of current.

Cheers, JT
Old 4 days ago
  #312
Gear Nut
 
jontornblom's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
But I do enjoy using premium power cables on my analog hardware units, the 35$ variety, it just feels right. good copper & brass, of a more than ample gauge, properly connected to prongs and sockets, good sheilding and insulation, are all good things.
From an electricians perspective, those are all noble goals! And my arguments are only against audiophile $10k esoteric cables, not reasonably priced good-quality cabling.

Ironically, I’ve decided to re-cable all the xlr’s between analog units since I did some sweeps at 96k with the cables and found some to have poorer high end response above 20k due to capacitance.

So yes, I’m going to invest in making some better cabling over the holidays because I want my frequency response above audible frequencies to be better. Another controversial audio topic!

Hahaha pick your poison.
Old 4 days ago
  #313
Lives for gear
 
Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by jontornblom View Post
From an electricians perspective, those are all noble goals! And my arguments are only against audiophile $10k esoteric cables, not reasonably priced good-quality cabling.

Ironically, I’ve decided to re-cable all the xlr’s between analog units since I did some sweeps at 96k with the cables and found some to have poorer high end response above 20k due to capacitance.

So yes, I’m going to invest in making some better cabling over the holidays because I want my frequency response above audible frequencies to be better. Another controversial audio topic!

Hahaha pick your poison.
Yes! that cable capacitance.

i think we’re in agreement here in most ways.

may the audio gods smile upon us :~}

JT
Old 4 days ago
  #314
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAN808 View Post
Rather than be impressed when someone says they can hear differences in cables - I start to wonder if they are mad and question their other opinions...perhaps I am wrong?

It's an old topic but here goes in brief:

1. No one is trying to impress. When I hear something, and I have learned how to listen and trust myself, it's a fact. What you hear is your deal.

2. Every cable, every capacitor, everything has SOME DEGREE of effect on tone. Does it matter enough to justfy the cost, is all that needs to be discussed. Power cables might have more or less effect based on the PSU and the piece. I use boring power cables, usually. Nothing expensive. XLR cables? All of them are extra $ Acoustic Zen is my jam. But these are not $2000 and up. That's marketing, to my ears un needed.

3. This will upset many people ... not everyone hears as well as some of us do, or as you might do. If they did, they would be proving that skill in their work and career path. If you don't hear it, don't get defensive, just do your best as we all do, with what you DO hear.




What matters in life or in music is two basic principles:

What do I need?
How much is enough?

Honor Necessity.
Honor Sufficiency.

Last edited by lucey; 4 days ago at 03:15 AM..
Old 4 days ago
  #315
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey View Post
It's an old topic but here goes in brief:

1. No one is trying to impress. When I hear something, and I have learned how to listen and trust myself, it's a fact. What you hear is your deal.

2. Every cable, every capacitor, everything has SOME DEGREE of effect on tone. Does it matter enough to justfy the cost, is all that needs to be discussed. Power cables might have more or less effect based on the PSU and the piece. I use boring power cables, usually. Nothing expensive. XLR cables? All of them are extra $ Acoustic Zen is my jam. But these are not $2000 and up. That's marketing, to my ears un needed.

3. This is will upset many people ... now everyone hears as well as some of us do, or you might do. If they did, they would be proving that skill in their work and career path. If you don't hear it, don't get defensive, just do your best, as we all do, with what you DO hear.
I think you may have misunderstood my post. Im not defensive - I'm skeptical.

Your knowledge on capacitance in cables and a premium perceived brand could easily colour your perception and have you believe there is a difference when it's not there due to bias which happens subconsciously. It's nothing to do with how good someone's ears are...Blind testing is very humbling. In the absence of a convincing explanation in the physical world I would need some blind testing results to be convinced (the things you mention are so minimal they are likely far outside the human hearing ability/range as per below)...

Perhaps there is a purpose for a mix/mastering engineer to 'trust their ears' in order to get the job done without being bogged down in endless blind testing and skepticism...although through the course of a career there is probably time to look at the major issues like conversion, sample rate, analogue and digital etc...

This test has demonstrated the cable issue is null as far as I'm concerned

Old 4 days ago
  #316
Gear Nut
 
jontornblom's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAN808 View Post
I think you may have misunderstood my post. Im not defensive - I'm skeptical.

Your knowledge on capacitance in cables and a premium perceived brand could easily colour your perception and have you believe there is a difference when it's not there due to bias which happens subconsciously.

This test has demonstrated the cable issue is null as far as I'm concerned

I also think we have really been unspecific about what we are discussing. Audio at line level? Power cables? Speaker cables? I think we have talked about the first two without differentiating much.

I think some things we can all agree on are:

Line Level Audio Cables - Primary Concern is Voltage
-should have sufficiently low capacitance such that the detectable high frequency roll off begins above the 20 kHz mark
-should have adequate shielding to mitigate RFI and EMI
-should be durable enough to be a working tool
-should make solid, reliable connections both physically and electrically.
-should not have a high enough resistance so that we lose signal voltage (losing 0.1 dB can make you think the audio sounds better through the louder cable, as we all know - resistance does this, but it's not frequency dependent, it's all voltages at all frequencies)

Speaker and Power Cables - Primary Concern is Current
-Should have sufficient large AWG size as to not reduce the intended amount of current flow to the PSU or speakers
-Should be durable enough to be used as a working tool.
-Should make solid, reliable connections both physically and electrically.
-RFI/EMI should be irrelevant with power cables since this is the mastering forum and nobody should be using a PSU that isn't capable of filtering the trash from the mains voltage. If your mains voltage is too trashy for your gear, the problem is not the cord, it's the system you're drawing power from.

I think some of us (me) may have been arguing against thousands of dollar per foot cables while others maybe have been arguing for not using the cheapest crap we can find on eBay/Amazon/Flea Markets.

To obtain all these characteristics, we must expect a reasonable increase in cost. Generally speaking, buying cables that are 3-5x more expensive than the cheapest cable you can find is probably sufficient. For an XLR cable, this might mean spending $40 instead of $8. Not $4000 instead of $8. It is also quite dubious that any cable fulfilling all the characteristics above should produce a noticeable change in tonality or dynamics.

I'm always willing and open to being wrong, but I need to be shown or discover I'm wrong before I just hop on another opinion. Along with listening carefully, I continue to test my tools with the other tools I have, such as the spectrum analyzer, the oscilloscope, and great utilities like Room EQ Wizard. I'm sure most ME's are the same.

Last edited by jontornblom; 4 days ago at 03:24 AM.. Reason: cleanup/clarification
Old 4 days ago
  #317
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAN808 View Post
I think you may have misunderstood my post. Im not defensive - I'm skeptical.

Your knowledge on capacitance in cables and a premium perceived brand could easily colour your perception and have you believe there is a difference when it's not there due to bias which happens subconsciously. It's nothing to do with how good someone's ears are...Blind testing is very humbling. In the absence of a convincing explanation in the physical world I would need some blind testing results to be convinced (the things you mention are so minimal they are likely far outside the human hearing ability/range as per below)...

Perhaps there is a purpose for a mix/mastering engineer to 'trust their ears' in order to get the job done without being bogged down in endless blind testing and skepticism...although through the course of a career there is probably time to look at the major issues like conversion, sample rate, analogue and digital etc...

This test has demonstrated the cable issue is null as far as I'm concerned

Trusting ones ears is essential to do musical work. Music making is personal. It’s not a science project even as it’s all science based on the engineering front.

AB testing is also essential to gain a Frame of Reference.

Testing cables can’t be done and should not be done as you want to do it. Nathan’s test is a joke.

He’s an old friend. Old client. Naive in some cases and very useful when it comes to acoustic treatments. I’ve made millions thanks to Real Traps in non custom rooms. Great products. Not expensive.

Your skepticism is totally fair. It’s a newbies position. Do the work and see what you can find.

After you’ve done the 20,000 hours of work I’ve done you’ll know whatever you know. Your post is not novel or new and we all get it. 15 years of this topic has made Jules a lot of followers!

Bottom line you have to do things your way. Trust no one. Trust yourself.

Enjoy
Old 4 days ago
  #318
mpr
Lives for gear
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAN808 View Post

This test has demonstrated the cable issue is null as far as I'm concerned
lol what's inside his null box? ICs and cable?

He's too smart to make that error so I will assume i'm missing something.

If you are gonna do this, please don't contaminate the test by inserting random cable and circuits.
Old 4 days ago
  #319
Lives for gear
 
robert82's Avatar
If you hear a difference, you hear it. No one can prove otherwise. Likewise, you can't prove to anyone else that you hear a difference.

Stalemate.
Old 4 days ago
  #320
mpr
Lives for gear
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
If you hear a difference, you hear it. No one can prove otherwise. Likewise, you can't prove to anyone else that you hear a difference.
I can live with that.
Old 3 days ago
  #321
Lives for gear
 
Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by jontornblom View Post
I also think we have really been unspecific about what we are discussing. Audio at line level? Power cables? Speaker cables? I think we have talked about the first two without differentiating much.

I think some things we can all agree on are:

Line Level Audio Cables - Primary Concern is Voltage
-should have sufficiently low capacitance such that the detectable high frequency roll off begins above the 20 kHz mark
-should have adequate shielding to mitigate RFI and EMI
-should be durable enough to be a working tool
-should make solid, reliable connections both physically and electrically.
-should not have a high enough resistance so that we lose signal voltage (losing 0.1 dB can make you think the audio sounds better through the louder cable, as we all know - resistance does this, but it's not frequency dependent, it's all voltages at all frequencies)

Speaker and Power Cables - Primary Concern is Current
-Should have sufficient large AWG size as to not reduce the intended amount of current flow to the PSU or speakers
-Should be durable enough to be used as a working tool.
-Should make solid, reliable connections both physically and electrically.
-RFI/EMI should be irrelevant with power cables since this is the mastering forum and nobody should be using a PSU that isn't capable of filtering the trash from the mains voltage. If your mains voltage is too trashy for your gear, the problem is not the cord, it's the system you're drawing power from.

I think some of us (me) may have been arguing against thousands of dollar per foot cables while others maybe have been arguing for not using the cheapest crap we can find on eBay/Amazon/Flea Markets.

To obtain all these characteristics, we must expect a reasonable increase in cost. Generally speaking, buying cables that are 3-5x more expensive than the cheapest cable you can find is probably sufficient. For an XLR cable, this might mean spending $40 instead of $8. Not $4000 instead of $8. It is also quite dubious that any cable fulfilling all the characteristics above should produce a noticeable change in tonality or dynamics.

I'm always willing and open to being wrong, but I need to be shown or discover I'm wrong before I just hop on another opinion. Along with listening carefully, I continue to test my tools with the other tools I have, such as the spectrum analyzer, the oscilloscope, and great utilities like Room EQ Wizard. I'm sure most ME's are the same.
QFT Hell Yes! sounds like we’re in agreement here.

My rule of thumb for cables has always been:

Spend No More on a pair of cables than you charge for an Hour of Mastering.

and I usually add a quote from Larry Miller:

“and this time I really mean it!”

cheers, JT
Old 3 days ago
  #322
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by jontornblom View Post
I also think we have really been unspecific about what we are discussing. Audio at line level? Power cables? Speaker cables? I think we have talked about the first two without differentiating much.
Indeed. All my comments are specifically about power cables as that is the topic of this thread.

Power cables are pretty much the least of my concerns in audio. Probably because I live in a country with 220V and all sockets in the building delivering 16A of power. Also all power cables need to follow stringent regulations including sufficient AWG to deliver 250V at whatever ampere the cable is rated at.

As for Ethan, I lost a lot of respect for him when he got very angry when another forum member and myself proved some of his claims wrong. He presents himself as the purveyor of reason and science in audio but refused to adjust his claims even though we both proved him wrong in double blind ABX tests with 100% success rates. (The topic was about audibility of signals below the noise floor. He had based his claims on what he could hear but didn't adjust the claims when we showed we could both hear more than he could). As far as I am aware, the erroneous claims are still on his site. They were still there when I checked a couple of years after we had the discussion on this forum.

Alistair
Old 3 days ago
  #323
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
Likewise, you can't prove to anyone else that you hear a difference.
Ah but you can!

Alistair
Old 3 days ago
  #324
Lives for gear
 

Real test here : VOVOX Initio Power Vs ordinary cable.
Old 3 days ago
  #325
Gear Nut
 
Digital Crush's Avatar
I can hear difference between plugged and unplugged cables
Old 3 days ago
  #326
Lives for gear
 
razorboy's Avatar
 

When I started recording, just a few years ago, I ran into a problem with the sound of some guitar tracks. I was not looking for trouble, I just had some tracks with wool-blanket sounds to them, and it was a problem. After swapping everything else in the chain eleven times, I eventually sorted that it was a cheap Yorkville guitar cable. Yorkville sells some high quality cables, but like many companies, they sell cheap ones as well. I replaced the cable and suddenly the high frequencies were there. I didn't buy a $100 cable, but a mid-level of some sort, maybe a $25 or $30 unit. I have bought more expensive cables, but in my experience, the audible difference is between the cheap ones and everything else. I have a hard time hearing any difference between a decent Roland or Fender and one costing twice that. Experience tells me to always buy at least a mid-level cable, cables are a bad place to go cheaply.

A similar debate happens around guitar woods, in which someone inevitably sneeringly asks if anyone thinks that a certain wood is "magical." Just because Mr. Sneer can't hear it, doesn't mean no-one else can. Gibson put maple caps on Les Pauls for good reason. (Maple + Humbucker.) The most fanatically happy owners of SGs have P90s (mahogany + P90.) And so on, although as one bright spark on a forum put it: "Can anybody hear it in the 10th row back?" That's a good question, and probably not. I did experiments with pickguards, of all things, swapping plastic, maple, and walnut. Yes, the walnut was odd man out x 10.

I still have that guitar cable, but it's in my big tool box. I use it as a piece of rope to tie things together. I cut the ends off so that it would never disgrace itself again.
Old 2 days ago
  #327
mpr
Lives for gear
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by jontornblom View Post
To obtain all these characteristics, we must expect a reasonable increase in cost. Generally speaking, buying cables that are 3-5x more expensive than the cheapest cable you can find is probably sufficient. For an XLR cable, this might mean spending $40 instead of $8. Not $4000 instead of $8. It is also quite dubious that any cable fulfilling all the characteristics above should produce a noticeable change in tonality or dynamics.
The Neutriks used in my 3 meter Ghost cable are about 50% of the cost. And to my ear (according to my taste) the Ghost cable has beaten out all of the expensive cable I've purchased over the years with exception of Grimm TPR which sounds similar to Ghost - both are fast, clinical and extended in comparison to the others which make too strong a statement for mastering use IMO. Unless you want that sound...

To be clear, I am not selling this stuff. I have no dog in the race. I was given a sample from a friend in Italy and based on appearance and cost I initially wrote it off as an Italian "Hosa" brand but i was WRONG. Then I bought a TON of it and now have extra.
Old 1 day ago
  #328
Lives for gear
 
James Lehmann's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jontornblom View Post
I also think we have really been unspecific about what we are discussing. Audio at line level? Power cables? Speaker cables?
+1

It conforms perfectly to the first classic rule of Gearslutz cable threads!

As I wrote ten pages back and two months ago, and in virtually every cable thread before that:

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Lehmann View Post
Cable threads on Gearslutz (and there are dozens stretching back decades) generally follow a predictable morphology.

Thus, in no particular order:
  • The subject is deliberately or ignorantly obfuscated by conveniently bundling together (in a discursive context) analog and digital interconnects, microphone cable, speaker cable, and even AC cable
  • Tired old internet yarns usually involving Mr Randi and/or coat-hangers are furiously quoted as a substitute for independent thinking and factual enquiry
  • Audio professionals (such as those on this Forum) and hi-fi enthusiasts are inexplicably lumped together into one mass of interchangeable, apparently indiscriminate end-users
  • The actual cost of all and any types of cable other than lamp wire is hysterically extrapolated to thousands of imagined dollars
  • Some people claim to be determined empiricists but decline to underpin their pronouncements with evidence
  • Others appear to possess Jedi-like skills in the art of 'remote listening', ie listening through someone else's ears and then telling them what they can or cannot hear
  • Test evidence that is available is rarely listened to, much less reported on - this can be challenging for some who find it easier to simply trash the test without actually listening, let alone revealing/admitting what they can or cannot hear
  • Most of the 'noise' above is contrived by people who post from behind the smokescreen of an anonymous alias in contrast to people who post under their real names - a search of previous threads on this Forum will show that the majority of the latter are generally reporting in good faith that specific cables in certain systems can cause audible, repeatable differences
Old 1 day ago
  #329
Lives for gear
 
blaugruen7's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Really flat monitor speakers make a huge difference.
I once heard the big 2m PMC mastering monitors at moderate volume.....

God or whatever was in the room.... So wonderful
Old 1 day ago
  #330
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Lehmann View Post
+1

It conforms perfectly to the first classic rule of Gearslutz cable threads!

As I wrote ten pages back and two months ago, and in virtually every cable thread before that:
you forgot the guitare cable.
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump