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Lets talk Aria Mastering?
Old 26th August 2019
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostolos Siopis View Post
That's actually funny...because as far as I know, Landr gives different masters even when you feed it the exact same mix....and it will actually change a master that it produced if you decide to upload it (ie it will always process even when you give it one of its own masters).
Which makes me question the use of the word "Intelligence" in their ads.
To be more precise: I never upload the LANDR'd master again to LANDR, it does not make sense, who would do that? I make the mix revision based on the things I hear in the previous LANDR master, and then upload the new (premaster) mix to LANDR again.
Old 26th August 2019
  #62
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Apostolos Siopis's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by eriksumo View Post
Okay, do as you wish! I never read that the rules are like if you want to prove something you have to bring audio proof. I won't bring audio proof to this forum, just my thoughts and experiences in text format.

And this won't make my point less credible, especially because you can always do the same as you suggested - post your horrible examples if you'd like to!
no rules
and even there were rules, I d never be a policeman
ACAB

I certainly cant post rejected mastering examples of already published music but I am rather happy that my opinion (a really negative one) will lie underneath yours when future readers reach this thread.
Maybe you could only post a link to your PUBLISHED stuff...stuff that were mastered by Landr (no need to post mixes and even if the music does not belong to you I am sure that posting an link of an official release is not a crime)



Mind you
I am willing to prove to you my point if you wanted to send a track over...
Old 26th August 2019
  #63
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Apostolos Siopis's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by eriksumo View Post
To be more precise: I never upload the LANDR'd master again to LANDR, it does not make sense, who would do that? I make the mix revision based on the things I hear in the previous LANDR master, and then upload the new (premaster) mix to LANDR again.
never implied or thought of this

what is funny is that you could possibly skip the remixing phase as landr apparently will produce random results...so who knows maybe you ll get lucky with the same MIX.
Old 26th August 2019
  #64
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Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 

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I hate L*NDR Or AR*A threads...

Last edited by Thomas W. Bethe; 27th August 2019 at 01:30 PM..
Old 26th August 2019
  #65
Gear Guru
Love all the talk about automation...... very little has to do with art.........

I can get great results from my Elevate suite with generic presets....... if I spend money I need to use another pair of ears/hands, don't need my half ass*d efforts being spat back at me without learning something...... Mastering is CHEAP, for what you get........
Old 4 weeks ago
  #66
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I quit liked emastered on one track. I find Aria hard to believe. We are meant to believe that our track is uploaded and then passed through a number of analog processors and then rerecorded within a couple of minutes. This is for a free 15 second demo master. This seems a bit unbelievable to me. How many of these robot mastering consoles does he have? What if he has a load of actual paid mastering to do - how come you can always get a demo back in a couple of minutes? Is business slow? Then you can adjust the eq in the settings in realtime - how is this possible - are we meant to believe as we adjust the eq in our browser somewhere eon the other side of the world a robot arm is adjusting a hardware eq and then re-recording it in realtime fast enough for us to hear the change in realtime ? Technically it doesn't seem to add up - I would like more clarity from Aria on how this process could possibly work technically it seems unfeasible, unles sof course its really just automated digital mastering.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #67
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Justin P.'s Avatar
 

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I think the robot is real, there is convincing video of it in action. It’s a separate studio from his actual mastering studio so it runs side by side with his human mastering studio. No scheduling conflicts. In fact, that’s in part why it was created.

The fast turnaround time and constant Facebook ads do elude to it not being slammed with projects though.

It would be interesting to get 3 or 4 people trying to use it at the exact same time to see if that sheds any light on what’s going on.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #68
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teebaum's Avatar
i once uploaded a 3 minute song to aria for a test - 2 minutes after paying i already got the downloadlink.
he told me that the mastering was already done before the payment was received - everybody should decide for himself if this is believable...

more importantly, the "mastering" of aria (which we should rather just call a 2-bus processing) did not solve any problems of the mix, but just sounded a bit like a preset with some limiting.
listening through 5 ozone presets and choosing the most appropriate one would have given a better result.

and now we should stop helping this unspeakable "service" to keep being present here.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #69
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Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 

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The more people post here on GS about AI sites the more people are going to try them...

It seems logical that this whole series of posts should just be closed once and for all on a mastering forum populated by "real" mastering engineers... FWIW
Old 3 weeks ago
  #70
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Miles Flint's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
The more people post here on GS about AI sites the more people are going to try them...
Word! +100
And the more ads you get on social media platforms! It's annoying! It's misleading and giving the term "mastering" the wrong value because it just is not.

The fast turnaround of these platforms should be warning enough to realize, that it has nothing to do with "listening" and is just simple processing based on analytics, even if...
Old 3 weeks ago
  #71
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Justin P.'s Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by teebaum View Post
(which we should rather just call a 2-bus processing)
Right. This is my main problem with all of these automated services. The stereo/2-bus processing is only part of what I consider the mastering process. They, along with some plugin developers have managed to redefine the term mastering for a growing number of people, causing them to forgot (or never know) what the entire process truly can entail.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #72
Gear Nut
 
jontornblom's Avatar
Disclaimer: There’s a lot of really long posts here that I didn’t bother reading.

My opinion is pretty simple. I’m sure IKEA scared the pants off most furniture builders that tried to make the cheapest furniture for the masses, but is no threat to high end furniture makers.

AI mastering is like IKEA, my mastering services are like custom furniture. I am not losing any customers to Landr and Aria, since they were never going to be my customers anyway. So it’s hard to see it as a threat or even something worth comparing.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #73
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lowland's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by jontornblom View Post
Disclaimer: There’s a lot of really long posts here that I didn’t bother reading.

My opinion is pretty simple. I’m sure IKEA scared the pants off most furniture builders that tried to make the cheapest furniture for the masses, but is no threat to high end furniture makers.

AI mastering is like IKEA, my mastering services are like custom furniture. I am not losing any customers to Landr and Aria, since they were never going to be my customers anyway. So it’s hard to see it as a threat or even something worth comparing.
Word - see my post #33 .
Old 3 weeks ago
  #74
Gear Nut
 
jontornblom's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowland View Post
Word - see my post #33 .
yes! Well said.
Old 6 days ago
  #75
Here for the gear
 

I’m also interested in (confused about) how aria could handle high demand and revisions and everything, considering they seem to be going hard on marketing. Is it really just one rig?

I had never tried any of these online mastering services until a few weeks ago. I assumed it’d all be like ozones “mastering assistant” or any mastering presets, which are never even remotely close to what I’m looking for, so I stayed away. However, a friend recently got an eMastered account to run his rough demos through as he writes. Something to quickly/affordably spruce it up and within a few seconds have something more listenable than he could do on his own. He can run infinite tweaks of demos through it, until his hearts content, without punishing a human engineer. I think it works really well for that purpose.

Then I wanted to try! So we ran some of my current mixes through it and Im surprised to say, I actually found it to be a really useful tool. Disclaimer: I do believe there’s undeniable value and no current substitute for finding a human mastering engineer that aligns well with your artistic sensibilities to take you to the finish line. But as someone whos not great at mixing- using eMastered as some kind of mixing tool/perspective check was really cool. Running my 80% finished mixes through it opened my eyes to some EQ issues i wouldnt have caught on my own. Now I’ve addressed what I was hearing as issues and am that much closer to the goal before the band sends it to a real mastering engineer. So...all in all, I’m really diggin online mastering as a tool to gain another perspective and kinda wish I had tried it way sooner... mighta actually saved some mastering guys a bit of a headache and made some better sounding records
Old 6 days ago
  #76
Gear Nut
 
jontornblom's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamJaySmith View Post
I’m also interested in (confused about) how aria could handle high demand and revisions and everything, considering they seem to be going hard on marketing. Is it really just one rig? ������

I had never tried any of these online mastering services until a few weeks ago. I assumed it’d all be like ozones “mastering assistant” or any mastering presets, which are never even remotely close to what I’m looking for, so I stayed away. However, a friend recently got an eMastered account to run his rough demos through as he writes. Something to quickly/affordably spruce it up and within a few seconds have something more listenable than he could do on his own. He can run infinite tweaks of demos through it, until his hearts content, without punishing a human engineer. I think it works really well for that purpose.

Then I wanted to try! So we ran some of my current mixes through it and Im surprised to say, I actually found it to be a really useful tool. Disclaimer: I do believe there’s undeniable value and no current substitute for finding a human mastering engineer that aligns well with your artistic sensibilities to take you to the finish line. But as someone whos not great at mixing- using eMastered as some kind of mixing tool/perspective check was really cool. Running my 80% finished mixes through it opened my eyes to some EQ issues i wouldnt have caught on my own. Now I’ve addressed what I was hearing as issues and am that much closer to the goal before the band sends it to a real mastering engineer. So...all in all, I’m really diggin online mastering as a tool to gain another perspective and kinda wish I had tried it way sooner... mighta actually saved some mastering guys a bit of a headache and made some better sounding records ������
Yeah, I would agree that the analysis tools that are out now can identify the obvious problems. That kind of analysis is quantitative; measuring the peak and persistent loudness of a given frequency range relative to the other bands in question, things like that. In that sense it can be useful, especially for people in your situation. Like a peak that is 6 dB louder than everything else etc. But where does the quantitative tie in with the qualitative?

Humans with the right experience/practice can generally tell if something is “better” or “worse” subjectively that would mostly fall within a range that an algorithm would determine as ambiguous. Does 4.2 kHz 0.5 dB up help the song? A computer can’t decide that. It can correlate it with statistics, but does it even know what it’s listening for? Even with robust statistical analysis, things will tend toward conformity, not the “special” and “unique” things that make each individual recording sound the most engaging and interesting to the brain.

In other words, the computer approach (as it is now) tends towards copy, not create. Useful? In some situations, yes. Will it be art? That’s kind of a philosophical discussion, isn’t it? When AIs are able to philosophize compellingly (and originally) with humans, will that be the time when they might make art?

Last edited by jontornblom; 6 days ago at 02:21 AM..
Old 5 days ago
  #77
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BIG BUDDHA's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
The more people post here on GS about AI sites the more people are going to try them...
FWIW
i think people will keep trying the AI sites. thats not going to stop. and the AI will keep getting better. thats the progression.

i see that some of the AI sites now give the end user the ability to listen to the AI product, and select multiple options regarding processing choices, and choose the processing results that please them sonically.

so you get multiple mastering options presented.

things like brighter, wider, more bass, less compression, more compression, more volume, less volume, hard limiting etc.. and you can actually listen to the results of your choices..

you can also mix combinations of processes if you so desire. for example you could choose the Brighter, Wider mix, at medium volume....or maybe the Bass Lift mix thats slammed Loud is more to your liking....

i see this area of development as being the future of AI mastering. an AI program that a human controls the intensity and direction of.

of course the machines cant do a Montage with crossfades and edit points, or anything requiring human artistic evaluation, but for Stereo files that have allready been cut to length, and just need 2 buss audio processing, its possible that the machines will make business a lot harder for B grade MEs within the next decade or so.

dont worry if you are good you will survive. life is like that...

Buddha
Old 5 days ago
  #78
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eternalsound's Avatar
The FACT is AI cannot ever know certain things: Is reverb needed? Is the mix "off" - the EQ'ing between the instruments, level of instruments, etc.? The ideal compression threshold to ratio to release to attack setting for the material. Would the material benefit from a MS configuration - for compression??, for EQ?? for?? Would EQ'ing up then compress be of benefit over EQ'ing down and not compressing??

The list really goes on and on and I am speaking of a two track master only. I believe there is importance for an actual ME for "critical" material that is deemed to be used in "critical" situations like mainstream releases, etc.. On the other side I think AI is wonderful for those simply "aspiring" or are in need of material for their family and friends to hear on SoundCloud, etc. Oh ..and for all the agents scouting them.
Old 5 days ago
  #79
Gear Nut
 
jontornblom's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG BUDDHA View Post
i think people will keep trying the AI sites. thats not going to stop. and the AI will keep getting better. thats the progression.

i see that some of the AI sites now give the end user the ability to listen to the AI product, and select multiple options regarding processing choices, and choose the processing results that please them sonically.

so you get multiple mastering options presented.

things like brighter, wider, more bass, less compression, more compression, more volume, less volume, hard limiting etc.. and you can actually listen to the results of your choices..

you can also mix combinations of processes if you so desire. for example you could choose the Brighter, Wider mix, at medium volume....or maybe the Bass Lift mix thats slammed Loud is more to your liking....

i see this area of development as being the future of AI mastering. an AI program that a human controls the intensity and direction of.

of course the machines cant do a Montage with crossfades and edit points, or anything requiring human artistic evaluation, but for Stereo files that have allready been cut to length, and just need 2 buss audio processing, its possible that the machines will make business a lot harder for B grade MEs within the next decade or so.

dont worry if you are good you will survive. life is like that...

Buddha
Hmm

Some of my questions.

1. How is the client supposed to inform the “AI” if they don’t know what they are listening for?

2. If the client doesn’t have adequate monitoring, acoustics, and/or ears, how can they inform the “AI” about the changes?

3. If “AI” could put total control in the hands of the client, why wouldn’t the client just master their songs from home?

4. If someone spent tens of thousands on accurate sound reproduction and a dozen years on ear training, they would be able to give the “AI” some direction, but again, why wouldn’t they just do it themselves? E.g. “I can tell it needs a 0.5 dB cut at 770 Hz Q of 2.5, so I’d better tell this remote computer to do that for me”

5. If a client had spent the money and time on the things from question 4, does spending $70-100 on a hiring another human being to collaborate on it seem unreasonable?

Last edited by jontornblom; 5 days ago at 03:55 AM..
Old 5 days ago
  #80
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Ben F's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG BUDDHA View Post
i think people will keep trying the AI sites. thats not going to stop. and the AI will keep getting better. thats the progression.

i see that some of the AI sites now give the end user the ability to listen to the AI product, and select multiple options regarding processing choices, and choose the processing results that please them sonically.

so you get multiple mastering options presented.

things like brighter, wider, more bass, less compression, more compression, more volume, less volume, hard limiting etc.. and you can actually listen to the results of your choices..

you can also mix combinations of processes if you so desire. for example you could choose the Brighter, Wider mix, at medium volume....or maybe the Bass Lift mix thats slammed Loud is more to your liking....

i see this area of development as being the future of AI mastering. an AI program that a human controls the intensity and direction of.

of course the machines cant do a Montage with crossfades and edit points, or anything requiring human artistic evaluation, but for Stereo files that have allready been cut to length, and just need 2 buss audio processing, its possible that the machines will make business a lot harder for B grade MEs within the next decade or so.

dont worry if you are good you will survive. life is like that...

Buddha
You may as well start with a reference track in Ozone and tweak to your hearts content.

It's not mastering, or AI, and still couldn't be used to make an album sound consistent. It will make your track louder, wider, brighter which has been used in broadcast processing for decades. You can hardly escape the marketing hype I've seen for emastered. People are easily fooled by marketing.
Old 4 days ago
  #81
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Papanate's Avatar
 

Online automated mastering is just the next step in the devaluation of music.
Old 4 days ago
  #82
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BIG BUDDHA's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben F View Post

It's not mastering, or AI, and still couldn't be used to make an album sound consistent.
thats absolutely true. honestly i totally agree and fully understand.

i have spent enormous amounts of time, working with real MEs, and getting material mastered.

Pro engineers and Producers, wont be going to AI. thats obvious.

but lets be honest, there are probablly 10 million bedroom musicians, so called music producers, Half a billion Rappers and the like, and many of them will opt for AI due to the almost non existant costs and the speed of turnaround.

those people are not delivering Hi Quality Product to mastering, and they do not have Hi expectations.

that end of the market, i can potentially see AI dominating, one day.

Buddha
Old 4 days ago
  #83
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eternalsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papanate View Post
Online automated mastering is just the next step in the devaluation of music.
Very true. The CD was the first, however most are so numb to this or never were even there to know the difference and would actually debate it.
Old 4 days ago
  #84
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BIG BUDDHA's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jontornblom View Post
Hmm

does spending $70-100 on a hiring another human being to collaborate on it seem unreasonable?
that money is very reasonable in my opinion.

but i own both Land/Property and a Recording Studio, so i am definately in the economic minority in this world.

some people with very low incomes, all over the world, might consider that a substantial sum of money. ????

so i guess it all honestly just depends on who you are....and where you live.

Buddha
Old 4 days ago
  #85
Gear Nut
 
jontornblom's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG BUDDHA View Post
thats absolutely true. honestly i totally agree and fully understand.

i have spent enormous amounts of time, working with real MEs, and getting material mastered.

Pro engineers and Producers, wont be going to AI. thats obvious.

but lets be honest, there are probablly 10 million bedroom musicians, so called music producers, Half a billion Rappers and the like, and many of them will opt for AI due to the almost non existant costs and the speed of turnaround.

those people are not delivering Hi Quality Product to mastering, and they do not have Hi expectations.

that end of the market, i can potentially see AI dominating, one day.

Buddha
This probably sums up a few of the conversation threads we have going here.
Old 4 days ago
  #86
Gear Nut
 
jontornblom's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG BUDDHA View Post
that money is very reasonable in my opinion.

but i own both Land/Property and a Recording Studio, so i am definately in the economic minority in this world.

some people with very low incomes, all over the world, might consider that a substantial sum of money. ????

so i guess it all honestly just depends on who you are....and where you live.

Buddha
Yes, exactly. I think this is what I was trying to say about how clients that go to Landr/Aria/etc. were probably never going to hire a human ME in the first place.
Old 9 hours ago
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eternalsound View Post
Very true. The CD was the first, however most are so numb to this or never were even there to know the difference and would actually debate it.
CD? I think it was more Mp3 and the internet...
Old 7 hours ago
  #88
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eternalsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by scalawag View Post
CD? I think it was more Mp3 and the internet...
That too. Ask the "old" guys here. The CD wasn't well received by audiophiles.
Old 6 hours ago
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eternalsound View Post
That too. Ask the "old" guys here. The CD wasn't well received by audiophiles.
Oh, i see. But audiophiles are not the music industry.
I never loved CDs either. i have perhaps 30 CDs vs 600 Vinyl Records.
Old 3 hours ago
  #90
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teebaum's Avatar
why should your music be worth anything to someone if it is not even worth anything to you?
the people who listen to music want to be touched & loveless music will not cause much reaction.
of course you can process scrap inferiorly and put it on a platform, but the chance that it will generate a reaction is then very small.

if you have been working on your music for a long time and appreciate it, you will want to find it properly represented.
what you put out there are masters, no mixes - nobody but a few involved will ever know your mixes, your portfolio is your mastered tracks, this is the image that goes from you to the public.

i have a full agenda & i maintain that it's not that i'm better or cheaper than others, but that i'm more passionate than many of my colleagues - and still have the skills.
besides that, i give my clear feedback and we work together.
passion, musicality and feedback - how can you ever get that from a machine?

when i look at the former customers who don't have external mastering anymore, it's especially noticeable that they often don't play a role on the market anymore - they have given up, don't believe in themselves anymore - why should anyone else believe in them?
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