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USB cable impact sounds quality?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #61
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I bounce a mix i just finished with both cables, like 2 exports and then compare them
Old 3 weeks ago
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kirito View Post
I bounce a mix i just finished with both cables, like 2 exports and then compare them
DAW export ---> USB cable ----> ?????
Old 3 weeks ago
  #63
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Apostolos Siopis's Avatar
 

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did you run the mix through outboard?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #64
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I m not sure i understand your question.

DAW export with the original USB of Audient iD22, then second daw export with Oyaide usb. After i listen on my headphone amp with HD 650

édit ; ah no outboard should i?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #65
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Apostolos Siopis's Avatar
 

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if the usb cable in question goes from DAW to a soundcard (audient or lyra), which serves as a monitoring DAC, then this test does not make any sense

it could have made some sense if you were outputing to a DAC >>>outboard>>>ADC>>>DAW
Old 3 weeks ago
  #66
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I see ok seems i can't do the test
Old 2 weeks ago
  #67
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I'm hoping to efficiently consolidate my responses to several little things in this thread:
Regarding the clocking mentioned in post #36 and #38 by @Timesaver800W and @IanBSC, the USB data clock for establishing the "eye" with the NRZI data bit toggling for encoding is *not* the sampling rate clock of the audio. USB uses specific bit patterns (SYNC) to establish where the packet header is. The packet has the audio data as the payload, but the endpoint (audio interface or computer/driver/DAW) is responsible for the audio clocking after the audio PCM samples have disembarked from the packet.

As for the cable itself. I agree with @Robo in post #53 that it's quite common to find out-of-spec cables. As a cautionary tale regarding getting too sweaty about this, one of my biggest victories in data networking was over this exact issue. The IBM cabling system had Type-2 Shielded Twisted Pair with a characteristic impedance of 150 ohms. There were zillions of miles of this stuff in the walls of corporations, and as the demise of Token-Ring LAN protocol gave way to the ascent of Ethernet, the new 100-ohm Unshielded Twisted Pair standard prompted a lot of expensive replacements. I proffered a test of the Type-2 to prove its efficacy in running Ethernet.

It turned out that the work had already been started but the results were never distributed to the correct people. The results showed that 150-ohm Type-2 STP was actually superior in *all* ways (signal integrity, distance, bit error rate, near-end and far-end crosstalk) to the 100-ohm Cat5 UTP (no Cat5E had yet emerged). We developed an adapter to use this pre-installed cable, and saved IBM and many customers *many millions* of dollars. I got a patent award and a check big enough to buy an average PC desktop.

Finally, the experience that @kirito is having in post #59 is a classic example of confirmation bias. I'm sure we've all had the private experience of adjusting the EQ on the wrong track/channel yet glowing with the beauty of our adjustments before the cold realization sets in to wreck your muse. Let's hope he can develop a better testing protocol.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #68
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Slug1's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kirito View Post
So i received the OYAIDE Usb Cable. I decided to export my last mix with the exact same settings just changing the new USB Cable. I have an Audient iD22. ( but switch to Prism Lyra in few hours )

Sorry i can't post the song here because this song is not out yet, artist won't appreciate.

I imported both tracks in a new session a compared each sections.

yes there is a sonic difference. At the beginning i was thinking it's a subtle difference. But no, my mix completely change to my ears.

During the verse of the song it's quite intimate atmosphere, the first thing i notice is... the lead vocal seems way more in the back with Oyaide and more upfront with the old USB. The lead vocal seems more " in the mix " with Oyaide.

Second is low end, the kick seems more fat with Oyaide, bigger.

Oyaide wins for the Verses.

Then the chorus comes in, too much low end on the Oyaide. It's seems more muddy than the original USB.
because of this, the original mix seems more ' Open '. Original USB wins for the chorus.

For this song i didn't mix threw the Oyaide so i guess it's normal i prefer original. I think i will benefit from it on the future mixes. more definition, low end is tighter, and i feel more separation between instruments

I think i will still keep my version with original USB because during the chorus the balance is a bit out now. Or i would need to re-balance the song a bit.
Did you do a null?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #69
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IanBSC's Avatar
This would be a really difficult test because the major difference between cables will only be between the DAW and DAC. It's possible that you would hear a small difference as ADC.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MediaGary View Post

It turned out that the work had already been started but the results were never distributed to the correct people. The results showed that 150-ohm Type-2 STP was actually superior in *all* ways (signal integrity, distance, bit error rate, near-end and far-end crosstalk) to the 100-ohm Cat5 UTP (no Cat5E had yet emerged). We developed an adapter to use this pre-installed cable, and saved IBM and many customers *many millions* of dollars. I got a patent award and a check big enough to buy an average PC desktop.
I'm thinking this performance was with 150Ω drivers and terminators, not 150Ω cable driven and terminated with 100Ω, right? If it's the latter, we have to take all we know(or think we know) about transmission line theory and throw it out the window.

Most people using out of spec cable would be driving it unmatched I think.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by u87allen View Post
I'm thinking this performance was with 150Ω drivers and terminators, not 150Ω cable driven and terminated with 100Ω, right? If it's the latter, we have to take all we know(or think we know) about transmission line theory and throw it out the window.

Most people using out of spec cable would be driving it unmatched I think.
We don't have to radically throw away so much. In a way, the planets aligned to make this work out okay.

The network interface cards (NICs) were normal stuff. The guys that did the physical layer compliance testing had lots of data about how tolerant and resilient the primary 100Base-TX protocol really is. It's hard to hurt it.

The greatness of Ethernet is underappreciated. The regular UTP specifications already allowed a 15-percent swing in the characteristic impedance. The Ethernet encoding itself is really a marvel of robustness in that it's got the 3-level (MLT-3) states and NRZI 4B/5B encoding, so errors already are by design sort of blocked out.

Moreover, there's the equivalent of a little magnetic transformer between the electronics of the NIC and the RJ45 connector. That also gives good (high) common mode rejection of unwanted signals. So, Ethernet talking between its NIC card and the LAN switch has some things in common with a high end transformer-coupled microphone connected to a transformer-input preamp.

Add all that to the fact that the Type-2 STP cable had its individual pairs shielded in addition to an overall shield, so it was the equivalent of a warm hug for the NIC driving the wire.

If you can't sleep, take a look at page-10 of this document...

[ https://www.analog.com/media/en/tech...tes/EE-269.pdf ]

... and page-19 of this document

[ http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/e...tes/01120a.pdf ]

Okay. Clearly I enjoyed this part of my life far too much. I'll stop now.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MediaGary View Post

Moreover, there's the equivalent of a little magnetic transformer between the electronics of the NIC and the RJ45 connector. That also gives good (high) common mode rejection of unwanted signals. So, Ethernet talking between its NIC card and the LAN switch has some things in common with a high end transformer-coupled microphone connected to a transformer-input preamp.
Was this little transformer doing impedance matching between 100 and 150Ω?

Just chasing this down because it seemed like your original statement could be interpreted as "if you're in a 100Ω environment it's better to use cable that's out of spec"

Old 2 weeks ago
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by u87allen View Post
Was this little transformer doing impedance matching between 100 and 150Ω?

Just chasing this down because it seemed like your original statement could be interpreted as "if you're in a 100Ω environment it's better to use cable that's out of spec"

No, the little transformer is always there as part of the NIC and every Ethernet port. It's always there for galvanic isolation. That's why nobody is whining about bad grounds affecting their network connections. It sounds pretty weird because we don't often get down into the board-level design to see what's going on within the driver circuits. Keep in mind that UTP cable depends on the twists to minimize crosstalk between pairs. The STP cable had a full shield around each pair, so its crosstalk performance was ensured to be excellent. Reflections due to mismatch didn't turn out to be much of an issue because most connections are *not* full-length UTP spec of 328-feet.

Nothing special or unusual had to be done to make this work other than getting the hermaphroditic (real word) Token-Ring connector to physically match the RJ45 port of the patch panel.

Here's a link to an Amazon picture of the little beauty:
[ https://www.amazon.com/Ethernet-Toke.../dp/B00I4ZWIFS ]

That little thing represents about 4 months of hassle and meetings with people who simply didn't want to even consider that Token-Ring was not the future of networking.

It just happened that the combination of a robust protocol and a well-behaved out-of-spec cable allowed corporate customers to allocate money for hardware purchase of active LAN devices rather than re-invest in cabling infrastructure. It essentially delayed the inevitable so that migration could proceed immediately.

The rapid expansion of desktop connectivity during that time made corporations swoon at the $250/adapter cost of using Token-Ring versus less than $80 for a Fast Ethernet adapter. There was no way to tell accounting that $250 for 16Mbits was a better deal than <$80 for 100Mbits. Fast Ethernet prices were dropping like a rock each year, but companies were looking at millions of dollars and disruption to replace the wire in the walls, and that was a very big deal. Think New York City, union labor, off-hours and weekends, in high rise office buildings, you'll get a flavor of what we were all challenged to overcome.

While not perfect on paper, it worked far better than anyone had hoped.

Last edited by MediaGary; 2 weeks ago at 01:54 AM.. Reason: missing words...
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