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Which plugin does the best job of creating that magic 3D depth that hardware imparts?
Old 17th June 2019
  #691
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtracs View Post
Shouldn't even recommend the demo without at least fair warning.
The fair warning is in the title of the download link that you clicked on: "advanced control section is disabled and low level white noise is added at random intervals"

Last edited by Nonlinear; 4 weeks ago at 04:56 PM..
Old 17th June 2019
  #692
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
Its like, "Hey, asshole! You owe me a tweeter!"
The noise bursts are -26-30dBFS. If your tweeters can't handle that then perhaps you need better tweeters.

And since when do you try something for the first time with your monitors cranked?

Last edited by Nonlinear; 4 weeks ago at 04:56 PM..
Old 17th June 2019
  #693
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonlinear View Post
The noise bursts are -26-30dBFS. If your tweeters can't handle that then I guess you need better tweeters.

And since when do you try something for the first time with your monitors cranked?
Please forgive me, but I was only employing hyperbole (in order to emphasize my shared sentiment concerning the frustration expressed by 'gtracs').

It was not meant to be taken quite so literally! (I mean like actually literally literal, or anything.)

This is why I added the line about the dim prospects of collecting on such a claim:

...I mean, we all know that there would never be any kind of legal leg to stand upon by such a claim, as in such an event one would be considered by the court to be the proximate cause of one's own injury (as is no doubt fully explained in the EULA agreed upon when installing the plugin).
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Old 18th June 2019
  #694
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
These are both good observations.

...And the best part is that these observations don't really have anything at all to do with whether you're working in stereo or mono.

While I'll admit that I don't really have any idea what the "true" definition of "3D sound" might actually actually be, I still think that everything you're talking about here is quite valid as it relates to the "believability" of a recording!

The techniques of which you speak DO seem to encourage a certain "suspension of disbelief" and "listener involvement" (compared to when a recording is mixed so that everything sounds like its "in your lap" (so to speak).

I know that this is not very "scientific" language, but I do think that its legitimately descriptive language nonetheless.
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Time is a very interesting subject as it relates to sound, as are reflection and diffusion.

I have a film where Bruce Swedien reveals his technique of rerecording sounds by micing monitors, placed within a space to create a well defined distance/placement.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #695
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
Please forgive me, but I was only employing hyperbole (in order to emphasize my shared sentiment concerning the frustration expressed by 'gtracs').
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtracs View Post
Ok, this demo version use periodic WHITE NOISE BURSTS to cripple it.
Plugin demo has been revised to duck in level rather than emit noise bursts.

Thank you for your input and for trying the demo.

Old 4 weeks ago
  #696
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Analog oscillators and filters?

Plug-ins are not there yet. Close, and VERY good sounding, but the SAME?
No, and perhaps they will never be.

For better or for worse.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #697
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonlinear View Post
Plugin demo has been revised to duck in level rather than emit noise bursts.

Thank you for your input and for trying the demo.

Well, I have not yet tried the demo...

...But the fact that you have so quickly responded to this issue is quite impressive!

As a result, I will definitely be trying the demo (just because you actually gave a damn!).

...And thanks for being so responsive to the concerns of potential buyers!
(I wish more other developers were like-minded.)
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Old 4 weeks ago
  #698
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i think the problem might be with the term “creating” that magic depth, rather than “maintaining” that majic depth.

it should already be there in the mix, we MEs just ~enhance~ it a little for “3D” effect.

unless you add a wee bit of reverb to a really dry & honest track for a little glow.

not sure there needs to be a 100 page thread about it

best, JT

p.s. my Manley Vari Mu (hardware) does seem to “add” a bit of 3D mojo, especially when you hit the Mu spot!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #699
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
i think the problem might be with the term “creating” that magic depth, rather than “maintaining” that majic depth.

it should already be there in the mix, we MEs just ~enhance~ it a little for “3D” effect.

unless you add a wee bit of reverb to a really dry & honest track for a little glow.

not sure there needs to be a 100 page thread about it

best, JT

p.s. my Manley Vari Mu (hardware) does seem to “add” a bit of 3D mojo, especially when you hit the Mu spot!
Great point and also this being in the Mastering forum. To me depth is created by contrast and there is great digital gear that is helpful. I think analogue will always have the edge in non-linear functions like distortion and harmonics generation. The gap is narrowing but one shouldn't preclude the other, they are all tools....
Old 4 weeks ago
  #700
DAH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis View Post
Great point and also this being in the Mastering forum. To me depth is created by contrast and there is great digital gear that is helpful. I think analogue will always have the edge in non-linear functions like distortion and harmonics generation. The gap is narrowing but one shouldn't preclude the other, they are all tools....
once again, I stay on the point no non-linear processing can impart depth. Otherwise, please process my sample and post the link here. To me, any distortion flattens the signal, i.e. puts it forward. In this way, if you run the signal with artificial or natural reverberation through the transformers, the low level and high level signals will be distorted and put forward while the mid-level will stay untouched. It will CHANGE the sound staging, probably for the best, but objectively it will only kill the depth.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAH View Post
once again, I stay on the point no non-linear processing can impart depth. Otherwise, please process my sample and post the link here. To me, any distortion flattens the signal, i.e. puts it forward. In this way, if you run the signal with artificial or natural reverberation through the transformers, the low level and high level signals will be distorted and put forward while the mid-level will stay untouched. It will CHANGE the sound staging, probably for the best, but objectively it will only kill the depth.
I don't disagree but my point was contrast. There aren't a lot of ways to acheive it and saturated vs clean is one. So if you're pulling forward a sound with distortion, it creates depth. Harmonics can also reinforce that. So mixing sounds distorted/clean, wet/dry, etc. is a good way to do it....
Old 4 weeks ago
  #702
DAH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teebaum View Post
even though there's a lot of talk about the 3D effect being a mix thing and plugins being able to do that - there's a kind of "3D sound" that you can only get IMHO by a clever combination of (mostly) tubes and transformer based hardware.
that doesn't have to be the right thing for every mix, but if it fits, the difference is significant and only those who have never had the pleasure to work with really first class outboards won't be able to understand it.
Great, process any of the bits in my sample and post the link. Any fee charged? Probably it will be a mind changing experience for many people on here, including myself.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #703
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonlinear View Post
>>Which plugin does the best job of creating that magic 3D depth that hardware imparts?

I know this thread is about about depth and not width BUT - if you're looking for a magic plugin please give SideMinder ME a try. When used in moderation, and in 3-band mode, the dynamic action of this plugin can impart a certain "3D" quality to many mixes.

https://www.raisingjakestudios.com/plugins.html

The demos are free to try.
Nice try, thanks! Just as the original plugin, which you have advertised here earlier, the ME version does confuse a listener, triples the confusion actually. Yet, this is not what the "3D" is about.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #704
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fadein View Post
...the ME version does confuse a listener, triples the confusion actually.
What? Please refrain from criticizing what you don't understand.

This was a suggestion addressing the OP. If you don't like it don't use it!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #705
DAH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAH View Post
Do we have to disclose it in the thread or to not bias the (new)comers, via a PM?
As I have been saying in this thread, I judge the dither\truncation by the depth of the soundstage, the bigger/more defined LCR-perceived triangle.
In this case, I thought that I was limited by my monitoring choice with the Chinese ESS-9018k2m DAC not supporting 88.2 so I listened via an Clevo laptop BUILT-IN soundcard and was able to hear the difference and build my preference on that chain (headphones Senns HD580 EQd in 2 bands at the master buss).
However, it turned out, this Chinese DAC I have been using as my primary monitorimg DAC does support the 88.2 sample rate. With this chain, the preference was the same.
I am dying to know what are those scientifically-proven parameters that affect my hearing at -144 dBFS noise/truncation threshold, as they say, artifacts on a full-blown mix that make a difference to me in both poor and decent monitoring DACs?
I guess it is about time to disclose the results?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #706
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1 was truncated, 2 was dithered.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scraggs View Post
1 was truncated, 2 was dithered.
Thanks. So what is your opinion on hearability of those superlow -144 db levels? No sarcasm, really. We are all I hope on our way to the best sound and skills. Just wondering.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #708
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I don't know! It really shouldn't make a difference, I don't see how we can hear differences that low in level. But....who knows. I preferred 2 as well, but of course I knew which was which, so I was biased.

I think a better test might be to cut 1 and 2 together at random spots and see if anyone could tell where the edits are.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #709
DAH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scraggs View Post
I don't know! It really shouldn't make a difference, I don't see how we can hear differences that low in level. But....who knows. I preferred 2 as well, but of course I knew which was which, so I was biased.

I think a better test might be to cut 1 and 2 together at random spots and see if anyone could tell where the edits are.
In my experience, the settling time in hearing the difference is about 2 seconds for the brain to grab for the cues, so short bits would not work. But you see that we can hear this stuff. Amazing and how on earth?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #710
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The whole idea of the original premise of this thread is tenuous.

You do not create 3D depth in mastering. You certainly do not create "magical" 3D depth with plug ins.

The core of the argument seems to operate on the assumption that you can create something with plug ins that wasn't in an original recording and that something could perhaps also be accomplished with hardware. That part of the question seems to be begging for the hardware vs software debate.

Bottom line, mixing and mastering just like in physics holds fast to the first law of thermodynamics- matter is neither created nor destroyed.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #711
Quote:
Originally Posted by pultech View Post
Time is a very interesting subject as it relates to sound, as are reflection and diffusion.

I have a film where Bruce Swedien reveals his technique of rerecording sounds by micing monitors, placed within a space to create a well defined distance/placement.
I got in the habit of doing that with keyboard pianos to give them that space and “3D” quality, as opposed to just up front and present....now I just amp the keyboard piano and between a mix of the close mic and room mic, it comes out a little better. I believe Bill Putnam used to do what you said too, and not just the artificial bathroom reverb he came up with
Old 3 weeks ago
  #712
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAH View Post
In my experience, the settling time in hearing the difference is about 2 seconds for the brain to grab for the cues, so short bits would not work. But you see that we can hear this stuff. Amazing and how on earth?
Don't forget that what we are talking about here is distortion of the waveform (not "low level noise").

Just because this distortion is "happening" near the zero-point (where the wave crosses zero), does NOT mean that we do not hear that distortion.

A good way to understand this is to consider what happens to a clipped waveform that is then fed through an all-pass filter:

...As Bob Orban and Frank Foti put it:
The practical effect of this non-linear phase response is that flat tops in the original signal can end up anywhere in the waveform after processing.

It’s common to see them go right through a zero crossing.

They end up looking like little smooth sections of the waveform where all the detail is missing [...]
...But of course you can STILL hear it!

Basically, the same thing is happening with the loss of waveform information from truncation.

Does this make sense?
.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #713
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^^^^^Do you have a source for more info on that? I've never heard that suggested before and I dunno that truncation has anything at all in common with clipped waveforms going thru all-pass filters in radio processing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAH View Post
In my experience, the settling time in hearing the difference is about 2 seconds for the brain to grab for the cues, so short bits would not work.
Sure. I was thinking long edits, a verse from one a chorus from two kinda thing.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #714
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scraggs View Post
Do you have a source for more info on that? I've never heard that suggested before and I dunno that truncation has anything at all in common with clipped waveforms going thru all-pass filters in radio pro
Well, from the standpoint of the processes themselves, they have NOTHING at all to do with one another!

...But both DO demonstrate that the human ear is sensitive to distortion even near the zero point.

(That's all I was saying.)
.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #715
DAH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
Well, from the standpoint of the processes themselves, they have NOTHING at all to do with one another!

...But both DO demonstrate that the human ear is sensitive to distortion even near the zero point.

(That's all I was saying.)
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Zero point aka cross-over distortion is different from the clipping distortion and is different from the quantization error distortion, the common thing between them being they cannoy be undone.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #716
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAH View Post
Zero point aka cross-over distortion is different from the clipping distortion and is different from the quantization error distortion, the common thing between them being they cannoy be undone.
I now see that this was all my fault!
When I responded to your statement/question from Post #709:
"But you see that we can hear this stuff. Amazing and how on earth?"
I had somehow misread "we CAN hear this stuff" as "we CAN'T hear this stuff".

I apologize! (I must be getting old and blind.)
.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #717
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Dr. M/S is exactly what I'd use—that thing is absolutely crazy and takes a lot of time to really delve into properly, but I'd also say any of the more recent transistor-based emulations in addition.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #718
DAH
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On 32fp to 24 dither hearablility:
Attached Thumbnails
Which plugin does the best job of creating that magic 3D depth that hardware imparts?-dither.jpg  
Old 3 weeks ago
  #719
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonlinear View Post
What? Please refrain from criticizing what you don't understand.

This was a suggestion addressing the OP. If you don't like it don't use it!
What is there to understand? There's no magic in your plugin! OP is asking about magic. I'll put you on ignore list with your advertisements.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #720
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fadein View Post
What is there to understand? There's no magic in your plugin! OP is asking about magic. I'll put you on ignore list with your advertisements.
Why are you arguing so vehemently over something no one is forcing you to use? It was a SUGGESTION!

You stated it "confuses the listener" which makes no sense. It is a mid/side processor - nothing confusing about it. It CAN bring out a 3D-like spaciousness in some cases and many people like what it does.

There is no "magic" in ANY plugin - they are all math processors. If something seems magical it is 100% explainable.

We do not run advertisements or spam anyone however if you PM your email address I will make sure to put you on our "do not send email" list.
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