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Which plugin does the best job of creating that magic 3D depth that hardware imparts? Saturation Plugins
Old 17th February 2019
  #421
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fadein's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
But seriously, calling mastering engineers "grifters" says a lot more about you than about mastering engineers.
I don't mind your zooming, really I do not.
I say what I think. Even about mastering engineers. Holy cow. I don't have to prove anything. Prove me wrong if you wish, I don't care.
Old 17th February 2019
  #422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fadein View Post
I don't have to prove anything. Prove me wrong.
I think if you say "Mastering engineers are grifters", it's up to you to make a case for that. Not for me to prove you wrong.
Old 17th February 2019
  #423
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robert82's Avatar
Know what? Before you come back at me or anyone else in this thread, I'll just say that at this point you amount to a troll. You've been trolling this thread with your Gospel of the Large Format Console for days now. And as of today, you're just shooting wildly at anything that moves. If I were you, I'd take a deep breath and try to listen to how you come off to other people. You might find it informative.
Old 17th February 2019
  #424
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fadein's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
I'll just say that at this point you amount to a troll.
I was just about to say it about you. Funny, right? You didn't want to share about your approach, you just spread your insults.
I'll just blacklist you and be done with it. Best of luck, m8!
Old 17th February 2019
  #425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fadein View Post
Not "your lousy mixes" nor "you are lousy at mixing". Mind the difference. Words matter.
You were referring to tracks that I mixed. Which makes them my lousy mixes and makes me, in your opinion, a lousy mixer.

All of which is perfectly fine, because I'm entirely unconcerned with your opinion of my work.

We're still waiting for an example of your work.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #426
Here for the gear
 

I truly feel egocentric reading this thread and reiterate my thoughts though various comments. I surely belong to new generation of audio engineers, and I can confirm neither audio schools, plugins nor vintage records did tell me what 3dness really is. And maybe I’ m still unable to describe it.
Anyway after buying my B&W 703 I became a new person.
Slowly I discovered what is a soundstage, what ethereal depth-dimension and 3dness people are referring to. Now these are my main criteria for choosing a set of loudspeakers. For example now I know Tyler Acoustic or Amphion or Focal could be my speaker brands. Yamaha or Genelec simply can’t. In general I retain near field monitor sounds thin and overcompressed, and unable to describe a real, audiophile, soundstage.

Another epiphany, in terms of understanding 3dness was upgrading to use hardware:
E.G. one of my first gear was a DAV BG3, not much box tone but quietly decent 3d vibes (maybe due to some interchannel difference). It’s just a bit more than a plugin (any plugin)

According to my little experience, some tricks that alters soundstage-dimensions-depth-sense of hyper realism are:
(Most of these considerations are just MY perceived downside of some mastering processing, some others in mixing)

-Cutting fundamentals of a source makes it thinner and more far (also maybe for volume decrease)

-Stereo compressor with stereo link disabled really widens the stage

-1-5 Khz eq broad curves tends to modify apparent proximity and distance, to me is a close/far tilt

-Linear Phase cut in the mid-high frequency with high Q factor usually destroys depth and “naturalness” of sounds. Even with 1 db cut at very high Q( 15-20), when I’ m unable to find a tonal difference, the natural soundstage is compromised, at least the realism of a voice

-Compression can easily destroy impact and dimension, and the biggest difference are between various time settings, more than GR difference (reasonably)

-680-800 Hz (sometimes 500 Hz area too) zone is very related to distance perception..so hard to explain but e.g., in a MS use, eqing this area reminds to me ER alteration, stringy flavour and boxiness

-All pass filters usually alters depth and ambience

-Eq curves interpolation often creates phasey- unnatural sounds

-Parallel compression can increase/decrease subtle details

-80-90% of the times IIR eq are less intrusive for what regards realism and 3dness

-Appropriate panning of reverb, and delay could really shape dimension of a sound (never hard pan as default)

-Inverting pan sends of a stereo chorus, flanger etc modifies perception of soundstage, and this consequences are not quantifiable in other words


Some of these thoughts are very very personal. Most are related to mastering. I also know some sentences seems off topic but 3Dness is very abstract, eclectic and transversal feature.

The only plugin I like for increasing depth (not intended as downside effects) are Black Box HG2, and rarely TDR Slick eq with auto LR settings decorrelation…..but now I’m just waiting for buying an HA Michelangelo!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #427
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Hermetech Mastering's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by fadein View Post
I was just about to say it about you. Funny, right? You didn't want to share about your approach, you just spread your insults.
I'll just blacklist you and be done with it. Best of luck, m8!
Please stop trolling and post an example of your work done on an analogue console that has depth, so we can all HEAR what you are talking about. Until you do you will remain a laughing stock.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #428
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He's not gonna post any of his work. Guys like him never do.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #429
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Because he IS a troll. I really do not understand why these type of guys get feeded here over and over again. Is there anything to gain from that?
If we all would ignore those trolls, the forum would be a much nicer and productive place for all of us.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #430
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Hermetech Mastering's Avatar
 

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I've had him on Ignore for weeks, but people keep quoting him (myself included), there's no escape.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #431
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JP__'s Avatar
 

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We all are weak from time to time. So, lets stay strong...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #432
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Ben F's Avatar
 

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I think about depth and width a lot and would consider width and openess (without using wideners) part of my mastering “sound”.

Getting the low end held together, controlling the subs and low mids, often leads to the stereo width improving and becoming more defined. Even a single band of a compressor controlling the low end can work. I also think boosting some ultra high frequencies (eg 19khz) on an analogue EQ also helps give the impression of more air and depth.

Otherwise the magic of transformers really enhances width. Just running audio through the Knif will give width and depth even without compression.

Been experimenting with the Elysia Alpha hardware and you can do some incredible manipulating of the mid side dynamics. Very clever box. Of course you need the right AD for capture as well.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #433
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SmoothTone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben F View Post
I think about depth and width a lot and would consider width and openess (without using wideners) part of my mastering “sound”.

Getting the low end held together, controlling the subs and low mids, often leads to the stereo width improving and becoming more defined. Even a single band of a compressor controlling the low end can work. I also think boosting some ultra high frequencies (eg 19khz) on an analogue EQ also helps give the impression of more air and depth.

Otherwise the magic of transformers really enhances width. Just running audio through the Knif will give width and depth even without compression.

Been experimenting with the Elysia Alpha hardware and you can do some incredible manipulating of the mid side dynamics. Very clever box. Of course you need the right AD for capture as well.
It's great to hear some thoughts about how some of the pieces of the puzzle fit together. I find posts like this really enlightening. Keep 'em coming Ben!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #434
Gear Guru
Quote:
Originally Posted by fadein View Post
I am good. I do mastering, when I need the vinyl EQ. I don't need mastering otherwise.
Nowadays "mastering engineers" are all frauds, grifters. I don't judge them. Idiots are plenty, why not exploit them?

Are you the one to judge my mixing abilities? I'll then just assign your comments to "ignore list" and be done with that.
You may do the same, obviously.

While we're still talking, I think, you are missing my point (again?).

It's not about the aesthetics, experience and knowledge, it's about the basics of recording.
Any recorder today should be able to hear ITB, what one could hear OTB before the digital age.
It is too much to ask for?
Apparently it is, 'cause it might ruin your bloody grift!

"I became interested in mastering around 1997, when I was the first kid on the block to have a CD burner. That thing set me back almost $800. Didn't matter, I was now A Professional." Old Colony Mastering Studio >> Boston, MA

Please, stop, m8. You're killing me!
WTF?!!! You are taking a lighthearted comment from a guy who is a respected mastering engineer, and using him as a poster boy for your half baked opinion? How fu*king unprofessional.... You really owe him an apology and a retraction to the others on here......
Old 4 weeks ago
  #435
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Don't feed the trolls @ardis :¬) Better off ignored.

How many of you guys here have tried LeapWig StageOne? Damn good bit of code for widening without all the usual horrid artefacts. Combine that with Gullfoss and you can really open a track up.

I prefer to use StageOne in mixing though on already wide elements, rather than strapping is across the bus/master.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #436
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TonStrom's Avatar
all 3 leapwing plugins are fantastic. they made me a really good offer to purchase all three at once.

Last edited by TonStrom; 4 weeks ago at 10:08 PM..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #437
Gear Guru
Quote:
Originally Posted by b0se View Post
Don't feed the trolls @ardis :¬) Better off ignored.

How many of you guys here have tried LeapWig StageOne? Damn good bit of code for widening without all the usual horrid artefacts. Combine that with Gullfoss and you can really open a track up.

I prefer to use StageOne in mixing though on already wide elements, rather than strapping is across the bus/master.
Yeah but honestly opinions are fine but do not use a forum to attack a working professional. That is uncalled for and deserves an apology.....

My personal opinion is mastering is an incredible bargain. To get the depth of experience and helpfulness of a mastering guy is humbling. I use a fellow that helps me stem master since I do home studio recording. The level of sophistication and depth of knowledge is amazing. I stopped going down the rabbit hole of trying to be all things to all people. That's what mastering does. Not just level matching. It depends what you are looking for and mastering can be a broader term these days.

Anyone throwing crap at a mastering house obviously has no idea what they are talking about. Sad to be long on attitude and short on knowledge. These are the guys I avoid at all costs!......
Old 4 weeks ago
  #438
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis View Post
Yeah but honestly opinions are fine but do not use a forum to attack a working professional. That is uncalled for and deserves an apology.....

My personal opinion is mastering is an incredible bargain. To get the depth of experience and helpfulness of a mastering guy is humbling. I use a fellow that helps me stem master since I do home studio recording. The level of sophistication and depth of knowledge is amazing. I stopped going down the rabbit hole of trying to be all things to all people. That's what mastering does. Not just level matching. It depends what you are looking for and mastering can be a broader term these days.

Anyone throwing crap at a mastering house obviously has no idea what they are talking about. Sad to be long on attitude and short on knowledge. These are the guys I avoid at all costs!......
I agree, mastering is an art form and indeed a bargain. I consider it a necessity to hire professionals.

My point—which you also mention—is that fadein is clearly talking b*****s. The more comments aimed at him, the more this thread degrades. Hence ignore lists are so useful
Old 4 weeks ago
  #439
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis View Post
WTF?!!! You are taking a lighthearted comment....
That comment was obviously a joke, but trolls don't usually have the best senses of humor.

Anyway, thank you!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #440
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robert82's Avatar
Ok Ok!! Dude has left the building.

Back OT
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the 3D depth magic plugin is a good reverb. I admit to a rather sick obsession with reverb, especially from the classic Lexicon machines. I own about 20 verb plugs, and am constantly on the lookout for the next reverb "miracle".

I also realize that what the OP might have been seeking is a plugin that can create a 3D soundfield without using reverb. Anyway, my dos centavos.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #441
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Most of the 'suggestions' being offer have to do with production 'technique'. [miking, reverbs, delays, enhancers, etc].

The topic title is '3d-depth that some hardware imparts', and suggested plugin emulation.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #442
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJHollins View Post
Most of the 'suggestions' being offer have to do with production 'technique'. [miking, reverbs, delays, enhancers, etc].

The topic title is '3d-depth that some hardware imparts', and suggested plugin emulation.
Right. So I'm voting for the plugin emulation of the Lex 480L, Relab's LX480.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #443
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Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

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plug-in......... magic 3D Depth

are mutually exclusive

imo

jt

:-)>
Old 4 weeks ago
  #444
mpr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scraggs View Post
He's not gonna post any of his work. Guys like him never do.
And probably for the best as it seems the greatest music is made from open minds, open hearts...

*

I think depth in music doesn't come from a single point, but rather from a chain reaction that starts with the instruments and ends with the mastering chain. And anywhere in that chain something can go wrong, so mindful preservation at every step is critical.

But more specifically gearwise I agree that certain transformers in the path from mic to master can play a key role regarding a sense of depth. Subtle and creative use of harmonics can holograph an otherwise flat sound, and our ear seems to interpret this as enhanced realism when done correctly.

Last edited by mpr; 4 weeks ago at 07:38 AM.. Reason: added my 2 cents
Old 4 weeks ago
  #445
DAH
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DAH's Avatar
I'd like yet to hear adding depth gear.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #446
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From my understanding the latest psychoacoustic research from chatting with guys who do the research, is that subtle decorrelation between the sound coming out of the left and right speakers leads to a perception of depth and the sound coming from a soundstage outside the speakers. Not enough decorrelation and the image is perceived as flat. This is apparently the effect that valves have on sound.

Not surprising really and explains a lot.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #447
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Bart Nettle's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Excellent point! It could even explain the effect of different console channels are not exactly the same and this creates a decorrelation and why consoles tend to sound wider than itb.
Even, tape recording made to two tracks! If both are the same mono separated to left and right would impart decorrelation and sound wider. Not mention any precedence effect added!
I think your onto something here bonk!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #448
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Quote:
Originally Posted by polybonk View Post
From my understanding the latest psychoacoustic research from chatting with guys who do the research, is that subtle decorrelation between the sound coming out of the left and right speakers leads to a perception of depth and the sound coming from a soundstage outside the speakers. Not enough decorrelation and the image is perceived as flat. This is apparently the effect that valves have on sound.

Not surprising really and explains a lot.
If I recall correctly Fabien (TDR) mentioned this earlier in the thread also.

Last edited by b0se; 4 weeks ago at 11:19 AM..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #449
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Anyone familiar with the "Blauertschen Bänder"...?
Still I m still very sceptical we all talking the same when mentioning "3D"...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #450
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Blauertschen Bänder, Interesting! 1k & 12k sine sound behind. 350hz and 4k, sound fore and 8k above.
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