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Vinyl - Always Center Below 150Hz & Nothing Above 15K- Really? Dual-Channel Preamps
Old 4 days ago
  #61
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Paul Gold's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ionian View Post
Skipping. The needle can't track the acceleration. A similar thing happened with Steely Dan's "Katy Lied" album:
Trakworx is correct. Excessive sibilance will cause distortion not skipping. I don't see the word skipping in the quote. It only says cut so it can be played back on a normal playback system. They are talking about an acceptable amount of distortion not skipping.

The term tracking or the ability to track a groove is referring to skipping. With sibilance the term is tracing distortion. The needle can't trace the groove. That is a different mechanism than mis tracking.
Old 4 days ago
  #62
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the vinyl without analogic tape, Place digitals files on an former analogic support.
, we had to dare.

it's true that Beck has sold Mp3 tracks as tracks 24/96.

The story does not iron the dishes twice.
Old 4 days ago
  #63
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Originally Posted by ionian View Post
A really interesting insight, thank you ionian: IMO efforts made at the time helped move the art of sound forward, we're all beneficiaries.

Struggling with dbx noise reduction - I can relate to that, we had a TASCAM 85-16B 16 track machine in the 80s with it built in, the system definitely had an up- and downside.

Interesting the article mentions the Citizen Steely Dan boxset. I have that and can testify it sounds good, thanks in no small part to being remastered by Glenn Meadows.
Old 4 days ago
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rollmottle View Post
So many of these new cutting shops aren't "mastering" it on vinyl at all, they're merely cutting exactly what they get from you without regard to level, how it fits on a side, spacing, etc. Most people have no idea that cutting music to vinyl actually takes real effort if you want to do it right and if you're new to the game, you'll just get a 1:1 cut of whatever you've submitted whether it's optimally done or not.

I reckon they are trying to make their lives easier so that their "set it and forget it" cutting setup just works and can then blame you when you say it sucks.
unfortunately that´s an observation I can confirm. luckily there are exceptions and I´m trying to get customers to have their stuff cut at decent places.

since most of the music I master goes down on vinyl I know very well how important the abilities of the cutting engineer are but many customers will still choose whichever cutting place they can get hold of, as these places seem to be constantly overbooked for quite a while now - which I think is part of the problem.

even if a cutting place is doing a bad job it will get enough jobs nowadays.
in general the overall production quality of the music is slightly getting better (at least in the genre I work, mostly underground house music, not overloud HF sharp EDM) but the average soundquality of the records being pressed is going down. As I said there are exceptions but the trend is towards quantity (of cuts) over quality.
Old 3 days ago
  #65
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at the first vynil era, the thousand or two thousand copies in a hurry were used to set up the presses and to throw them, judged to be unlistenable

today, in the second vynil era, the thousand or two thousand copies are sold and the presses are the same.

How is possible ?
Old 3 days ago
  #66
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAH View Post
I have basically have come to conclusion that 44 is not enough and vinyl has MORE resolution as in depth and 3d, comparing the 24/96 rip to its downsampled to 44/24 version. And I do not mean the bandwidth of Vinyl vs CD since I can only hear to 15 kHz. But the interaural information seems to be lost at 44. The DAC playing back better at 96 (ES9018K2M)?
You may need better digital playback. The ESS Sabre 9038 is far beyond the 9018. Upsampling to over 300k with a hi res deck also reveals more hidden information. A great Red Book deck with error correction (FLAC on the fly) will also fix those issues.

It sure beats snap, crackle and pop and I don't mean cereal. Those inside tracks are really tough on my ears, groove modulation and THD is much higher than the outside track.
Old 3 days ago
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
You may need better digital playback. The ESS Sabre 9038 is far beyond the 9018. Upsampling to over 300k with a hi res deck also reveals more hidden information. A great Red Book deck with error correction (FLAC on the fly) will also fix those issues.

It sure beats snap, crackle and pop and I don't mean cereal. Those inside tracks are really tough on my ears, groove modulation and THD is much higher than the outside track.
Its not how the system can be upgraded, it is how poor 44 sounds vs 96. And most of the consumers do not even have the 9018 to listen on, which is head above the shoulders at 44 to an common built-in soundcard, I did compare with levels matched.
I mean, a conversion does not add depth and width, it can only subtract. So if you have a "degraded" 24/96 a2d record that posesses these qualities as well as separation that is gone @44 on resampled via 512-sinc to 44 fron the original 96, then it seems to be legit that 44 sucks compared either to original crosstalk +IMD + IGD + SN plagued vinyl original on a pro-consumer chain or its record in 96. And people have been listening to CDs on the DACs for decades not half as good as modern cheap DACs are.
BTW, what us "high res deck"? Does it imply an analog or a digital one? I do not listen to CDs from a deck real-time, I rip to wav, so the deck and playback error correction do not have any role here. A 44 khz PCM as the CD always be.
Old 3 days ago
  #68
Gear Nut
 

A question for Greg, Paul or anyone else who wants to answer it:

What is the maximum peak displacement, in microns, for vertical and lateral modulation? (Vertical is less.) The ratio, converted to dB may be instructive.

There is a difference between purely out-of-polarity and panned elements.

Panned elements produce both lateral and vertical modulation. When mono'd only some of the element disappears. The difference information provides steering to the left or right of center.

Completely out-of-polarity elements disappear when summed. The side/vertical element is all there is. There is no lateral.

Using 100 Hz tone as an example (boring I know) the in-polarity tone produces pure lateral modulation; the out-of-polarity tone produces only vertical. A panned 100 Hz tone provides both.

Take the ratio of maximum permissible lateral modulation, in microns, and compute the dB difference between it and the lower-level vertical modulation maximum and you have an answer as to the amount of level you sacrifice when cutting in-polarity versus out-of-polarity 100 Hz tone. With a specific track your mileage may vary.

Someone here in another thread wrote something to the effect of: "Stereo bass is interesting, mono bass is powerful."

I prefer to have both woofers working together. They move more air. When they're moving in opposing directions you have no woofers.
Old 3 days ago
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mediatechnology View Post
...
What is the maximum peak displacement, in microns, for vertical and lateral modulation? (Vertical is less.) The ratio, converted to dB may be instructive.

The lateral and vertical displacements of the Ortofon stereo cutting heads are identical, at 150 µm. Also, the DSS731 and DSS732 (by Ortofon), both, have a diagonal cutting displacement of 106 µm (left and right diagonal being identical, of course). Diagonal cutting happens with passages having signal elements more, or only, in one stereo channel.

However, the last of the Ortofon-type stereo cutting heads, by Phonotech (when Ortofon stopped making cutting gear in 1983), known as the DDS822, has an increased diagonal displacement of 170 µm. That allegedly gives 5 dB more level, according the Studio Sound article of July, 1985. However, the DDS822 doesn't have the same frequency response that the Ortofon-made (CD-4-capable) DSS731 has, which is 5 Hz through 25 kHz (with 30 kHz, down by about 5 dB). The DDS822's response is deliberately limited to 7 Hz though 23 kHz (for 'improved [stability] reserve' (with the negative feedback, which twists positive(!) above the audio band) and for 'extended fatigue life').

Mechanical stoppers keep excursions from exceeding the design. It's important not to cause the rocking bridge to stop for any longer than is needed for the signal to change direction (each half-cycle) because the negative feedback being summed with the cutting signals will also stop, which could result in a power surge (due to the removal of the attenuation provided by negative feedback), and that could cause self-oscillation (when high power positive feedback above 20 kHz returns), which ruins a cut (with a super loud whistle sound) and could ruin the tool, as well. It's interesting to know the specs., but we cut best well within the tolerances of the recording system and also the more-challenged playback systems.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mediatechnology View Post
There is a difference between purely out-of-polarity and panned elements.
Yes, the same signals on each channel but with opposite sign are cut vertically, automatically, because of the (intended) polarity of the two drive coils' contacts to which the drive signal leads are soldered. Hard-panned elements get cut diagonally because they aren't driving the opposite channel. Gradations of panning result in gradations of diagonal-ness (with some lateral-ity).


Quote:
Originally Posted by mediatechnology View Post
Take the ratio of maximum permissible lateral modulation, in microns, and compute the dB difference between it and the lower-level vertical modulation maximum and you have an answer as to the amount of level you sacrifice when cutting in-polarity versus out-of-polarity 100 Hz tone. With a specific track your mileage may vary.
Vertical groove modulation isn't a problem. The cutting stylus in my cutting heads can be displaced by the same amount in the up/down and left/right directions. Vertical pickup is the problem. If you use enough depth gain, you can help keep the pickup stylus in the groove to some degree because the groove width isn't getting overly pinched tight (or vanishing!) each half-cycle that the the coils pull the stylus maximally upwards. But vertical modulation still results in 'ski ramps' for the pickup stylus. Since tracing is easier than scanning, by summing low frequencies (which have far greater excursions than high frequencies of the same intensity - even after the extreme RIAA bass attenuation for the cut - since the cutting head and pickup cart are velocity transducers), we turn their bigger 'ski ramps' into 's-curves', and we can still enjoy the spaciousness of stereo mid-range and treble that's left 'stereophonic' with their sort-of 'bunny-slope' moguls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mediatechnology View Post
Someone here in another thread wrote something to the effect of: "Stereo bass is interesting, mono bass is powerful."

I prefer to have both woofers working together. They move more air. When they're moving in opposing directions you have no woofers.
I certainly prefer centered bass/kick/lead vox in headphones. Out of phase bass should be audible, though it's lossy and inefficient to more or less degree based on the room geometry, acoustic materials, and speaker placement, yes? Also, 'stereo bass' is not necessarily 180 degrees out of phase on the other channel. It usually means that more of it is present on one side. Unless it's radically panned and not at all in the other channel, the other side may have some of it still partially in phase, or out-of-phase but at a slightly different time, due to reverberation delays. So, it may be there but at a much lower level than the side to which the bass is mostly panned. For cancellation, the opposite sign signal must occur at the same time as the given signal and with the identical intensity.

On the other hand, if the bass is hard-panned, it's radical stereo bass. This is also not something which results in silence because the other speaker doesn't oppose it at all. Reverb and early reflections are often panned, naturally, by the studio room and mic array / placement, or, artificially, by the mix engineer. If we couldn't hear that, we wouldn't go for it. But it's a go-to effect, both acoustically and electronically. Stereo won.
Old 2 days ago
  #70
Gear Nut
 

Thank you for your informative post.

You mention that the Orotfon cutterhead has almost identical vertical/lateral displacement capability.

Is there a hard limit of vertical modulation, in microns, defined for the playback specification?

Playback skipping, as many have noted, is the ultimate outcome. Though that limit is determined by the customer's stylus is there a defined "limit" for playback vertical displacement? Or a guideline?

The VAB-84 was calibrated in microns of vertical displacement with calibrations ranging from 30 microns to 100 far below the 150 microns the Ortofon is capable of.

Pulling what numbers I have out of air if we use the 150µ of the Ortofon as peak lateral and the vertical limits of the VAB-84 ranging from 30-100µ then 150/30 is 14 dB, 150/100 is 3.5 dB. Based on that, the "vertical penalty" should be 3-14 dB.

I have a client that uses one of my EEQs for film trailers which will never see vinyl release. One of the issues he's constantly facing is overly-wide low frequency effects sent by the film mixers which do no translate well for him. One example he gave are Taiko drums.

Ian Stewart recently wrote a blog post where he compares a number of "bass to mono" plugins:

"Center That Sub! (A Guide to Monoing Your Low End)" Blog — Ian Stewart Music

One aspect of vinyl recording which is not often discussed is the fact that the polarity of one channel is inverted relative to the other during cutting to force lateral modulation for L+R. I wrote a post about that over at Lathe Trolls:

"Vinyl Polarity Relationships in the Westrex 45/45 System" The Secret Society of Lathe Trolls • View topic - Vinyl Polarity Relationships in the Westrex 45/45 System
Old 2 days ago
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mediatechnology View Post
Thank you for your informative post.

You mention that the Orotfon cutterhead has almost identical vertical/lateral displacement capability.
Not just almost. http://www.discolathe.com/Ortofon/DSS_deflections.jpg

Quote:
Originally Posted by mediatechnology View Post
Is there a hard limit of vertical modulation, in microns, defined for the playback specification?
Too little permissible vertical deflection would interfere with good playback. But how fast it deflects is of greater concern. Deflecting a great deal repeatedly in a short time is the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mediatechnology View Post
The VAB-84 was calibrated in microns of vertical displacement with calibrations ranging from 30 microns to 100 far below the 150 microns the Ortofon is capable of.

Pulling what numbers I have out of air if we use the 150µ of the Ortofon as peak lateral and the vertical limits of the VAB-84 ranging from 30-100µ then 150/30 is 14 dB, 150/100 is 3.5 dB. Based on that, the "vertical penalty" should be 3-14 dB.
The pickup cart can't be asked to match the cutting head's agility. The cutting stylus has a much easier time with vertical modulation because, even though it has to remove lacquer as it vibrates, it doesn't have to stand on the running groove walls in order to maintain physical stability (in space). Its saddle is being pushed down by the yoke which is being pushed down by the depth solenoid and is being held up by the counter spring and is having its vertical oscillations dampened by silicone fluid in block wells that oppose sudden movements of the yoke. The stylus is free to move suddenly within its housing, but its orientation upon the surface of the workpiece is assured. Whereas, the pickup stylus must be made to stand on the running groove walls, react to the twists, turns, moguls, etc..., and not get tossed overboard with little support from the balanced tone arm, which would like to swing towards either edge of the record at all times.
Old 2 days ago
  #72
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There is no way to answer that question in absolutes. There is no maximum velocity specification for playback. What a cutterhead can can cut far exceeds what can be played back. Lacquers are usually 12 microns thick. So
maximum vertical modulation would be a little less than that. Lateral Modulation would be limited by cutterhead specs.

Above I wrote lacquers were 12 microns thick. I meant mil not micron. 1 mil= 0.001”

Last edited by Paul Gold; 1 day ago at 08:48 PM.. Reason: Wrong unit of measure
Old 2 days ago
  #73
Gear Nut
 

The Ortofon diagonal maximum of 106 µm is conveniently (1/√2)*150 µm.

We were told our high school geometry would be useful to us as grown-ups.

I came to the subject of Elliptic Equalization out of ignorance. M/S matrix customers kept asking me about high pass filtering Side to implement EEQ. I had to ask myself "Why is there this need and what happens when you do?"

I've gotten several answers as to "why" but had to figure out "what happens" on my own.

Simple first-order EEQ such as the EE-series, VAB and others are simple to understand. My customers were wanting to do second and third order. I tried it, it "worked" but it peaked horribly.

Until I looked at what the resulting vertical, lateral and crosstalk curves produced I couldn't see the whole picture.

Those that have tried higher-order HPF of Side (in either analog or DSP) likely saw a very pretty vertical curve but probably never looked at the resulting crosstalk which not only peaks but is still single-order with a large sonic footprint in the midrange.

You mentioned that there were a number of factors on playback which to me seem to "add up" to reduce vertical headroom. The cutter is vertically-limited to 150 µm which gives it the same "dynamic range" as the lateral channel. The playback mechanism would seem to have physical limits that give lateral more physical DR.

Has anyone such as the RIAA or NAB ever set a suggested physical limit to L/V or just V as an absolute? The VAB limited vertical to 30-100 µm which is about a 10 dB range.

Last edited by mediatechnology; 2 days ago at 06:02 PM.. Reason: typos; grammar
Old 2 days ago
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mediatechnology View Post
Has anyone such as the RIAA or NAB ever set a suggested physical limit to L/V or just V as an absolute? The VAB limited vertical to 30-100 µm which is about a 10 dB range.
Not that I’m aware of. A Crosley will skip before an SME with a V15 will. If there was a spec for that then low end turntables would all be out of spec. Wideband dynamic range range also isn’t a good way to spec it. A 10dB dynamic range at 10k would be much less of a problem than 10dB at 40Hz. The crest factor is also a big factor in tracking ability. 10dB from a pipe organ will be much less of a problem than 10dB from a bass drum with snap.
Old 2 days ago
  #75
Gear Nut
 

Thanks Paul.

There was a post here in this thread and others elsewhere about the problems cutting brick-walled material.

What I've found through experimentation is that that tightly-controlled brick-walled peak level gets immediately undone the moment its inverse-RIAA EQ'd.

All the folded down harmonics and added distortion are still there with their added energy eating up peak level and power. In one of the experiments I tried there was no net gain in (simulated) cutting level and in fact a decrease was required.

My conclusion was that brick-walling was (and always has been when used in excess) a net negative. Particularly so with vinyl where all the folded peaks are immediately undone.

The way I see it is that hard-panned or completely out-of-polarity elements along with brick-walling work against the process rather than benefit it. Unless there's some huge artistic reason for it why walk through a mud puddle when you can step around it?

Going back to the mechanics. If the lacquer is 12 microns thick and we consider cutting into the substrate a mechanical stop then the ratio of the lateral mechanical stop, 150 microns (Orotfon), to the vertical, 12 microns (medium), is 22 dB.

Even if its half that, the channel capacity and DR of difference, aka Side, aka vertical is significantly less than the sum. This is also true of FM and many codecs.
Old 1 day ago
  #76
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Again, from Apollo, the lacquer coating on the master disc has a thickness of 0.178mm +/- 0.0127mm. GZ Vinyl "Quality Control" (or lack of) see pics!! | Page 3 | Steve Hoffman Music Forums
Found the above at the Steve Hoffman forum. That quote puts the coating thickness at 178 µm. At the minimum tolerance the thickness is 166 µm.

The VAB-84's calibration for vertical limiting was 30-100 µm.

So the 166 µm coating thickness and the VAB calibration are in the same order of magnitude. The 12 µm number Paul gave earlier may have been the tolerance.

IIRC the VAB-84 was designed for direct-metal cutting so the 100 µm maximum might be a high number for conventional lacquer and to prevent skipping on a Crosley.

Pulling numbers out of air: If the lateral modulation stops on an Ortofon are 150 µm, then 3 dB of headroom gives you 106 microns lateral.

Comparing the VAB-84's vertical limit at the lowest setting, 30 µm, versus the lateral limit of 106 µm, the ratio is 11 dB. At the highest vertical setting, lateral and vertical are about equal.

I may be off by a factor of two here: It could be 5 dB or 20 dB but the point is that LF stereo information is going to eat up vertical modulation and vertical is the most level-challenged of the two. Vertical is also where playback warp lives.

IMHO its better to save that real estate for the midrange where it provides useful directional information.
Old 19 hours ago
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mediatechnology View Post
Found the above at the Steve Hoffman forum. That quote puts the coating thickness at 178 µm. At the minimum tolerance the thickness is 166 µm.
I amended my previous post but I was still wrong. I meant 12 mil which equals 0.012". 178 µm equals about 0.007".
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