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Phase Linear EQ with no pre ringing? Equalizer Plugins
Old 1 week ago
  #1
Phase Linear EQ with no pre ringing?

I just received an e-mail from MAAT digital claiming to be releasing an upgrade to the Algorithmix PEQ Orange Linear Phase EQ that has no pre-ringing or post ringing. Was this how the original Orange EQ worked or is this new? How is this even possible?

If anyone has any information about this, I am very curious to know.

Here is the copy from the e-mail:

"Algorithmix’s legendary Linear Phase PEQ Orange equalizer. Well, it’s almost here and there’s literally nothing else like it!
Our new thEQorange is the only software EQ on earth that has no time or amplitude artifacts…none. No pre or post–echo, no group delay, no very low frequency amplitude issues. Nothing, nada, zip. Only pure EQ goodness, with the unrivaled fidelity Christoph’s DSP is known for."
Old 1 week ago
  #2
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Verified Member
MAAT thEQorange

afaik, same same but 64bit now
Old 1 week ago
  #3
Quote:
In geek–speak, FIR filters are thought of as “causal,” where the effect (the echo) appears before the cause. IIR filters are referred to as “non–causal,” with the cause (the direct signal) always appearing first at the output.
Ehm...this definition is not exactly reassuring. But I hope they didn't defy physics and tricked Fourier in the same manner (with more or less intentional typos!).

I seriously wonder how a filter that neither has pre nor post echo differs from an amp. I must have missed some interesting math classes.

Last edited by FabienTDR; 1 week ago at 04:53 AM..
Old 1 week ago
  #4
Quote:
Originally Posted by FabienTDR View Post
well, let's start with their own words:



That's not exactly reassuring (the inverse is the case!).

Curious how they figured out to defy physics and trick Fourier. But given the above, I have little hope for surprise.
Yeah, the language on their (Algorithmix) original site is even more vague and less technical, and of course it never says anything about pre ringing or eliminating pre ringing like it does at MAAT.digital.

I was surprised to see this claim since it would seem impossible.
Old 1 week ago
  #5
Of course it is impossible.

IMHO, these are just questionable manners.
Old 1 week ago
  #6
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polybonk's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by FabienTDR View Post
Of course it is impossible.

IMHO, these are just questionable manners.
Should be easy to test that tho no? If so why make the claim?
Old 1 week ago
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by polybonk View Post
If so why make the claim?
I tried to download the demo, and got a possible answer to this question (seems to point to a different product).
Old 1 week ago
  #8
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Alexey Lukin's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benj View Post
I just received an e-mail from MAAT digital claiming to be releasing an upgrade to the Algorithmix PEQ Orange Linear Phase EQ that has no pre-ringing or post ringing. Was this how the original Orange EQ worked or is this new? How is this even possible?
As you can read in Algorithmix's explanation, Orange EQ runs an IIR filter forward and then backward in time (this was also apparent from my test of their demo version a decade ago). Of course, it has ringing, similar to any comparable linear-phase EQ. MAAT's marketing language is somewhat confusing: they promise lack of (discrete) echos, but do not promise lack of ringing. I believe they've also got causality/non-causality lingo wrong for FIR/IIR.
Old 1 week ago
  #9
Gear Addict
 

990$
Old 1 week ago
  #10
To be fair, Algorithmix's approach was quite clever and impressive back then. These are so called TIIRs, meaning Truncated Infinite Impulse Response. In a strict sense, this is a contradiction, truncated infinity really is finite. AFAIC Weiss uses very similar technology.

Back then, price was justified. But this approach has been surpassed by undeniably cleaner approaches (for linear phase either direct FIR, IFIR or realtime FFT).
Old 1 week ago
  #11
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A company should be totally honest in their claims and not try to manipulate the truth by using play on words.

Anyway I would never pay 1.000$ for an eq-plugin

At least it would be nice to test it to see whether it sounds any better than others ... which I doubt.

... currently the demo links to their meter which really might be free of any ringing
Old 1 week ago
  #12
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teebaum's Avatar
the gentleman who wrote this promo-text can either be assumed to have a lack of technical understanding or fraudulent intentions - or he is a genius.
Old 1 week ago
  #13
it is nice they want to resurrect the old Algorithmix code and improve on it if I understood correctly, but as Fabian stated above, I think there are plenty of great Eqs around, with various linear implementations, so the market is pretty saturated. Nevertheless, it would've been welcomed by many but to come and ask almost the same price as more than a decade ago is insane IMO. I don't know what their deal is and honestly I don't know what that EQ could do to justify that price tag.

Quote:
Originally Posted by soundgeezer View Post
A company should be totally honest in their claims and not try to manipulate the truth by using play on words.
I'd understand BS from a one man operation brand which charges $30 for a plugin, with a text-book implementation, a photo-realistic GUI making use of shoddy marketing to convince the gullible they have the next best thing. but at $1000 this is obviously not intended for the bedroom producer. in that case they should stand by every little word in their claims.
Old 1 week ago
  #14
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Algorythmix were making plugins under their name or for others compagnies that sound as good as your lastest hyped plugs but maybe 15 years ago ..so let see , or hear , i Hope it s not just hype marketing ..but i garantee you , their old eq like the blue sound juste as good ( or should i Say as bad ? ) As any stantar digital eq , soundwise to me clean digital eqs have not really evolved with the years it s mostly hype with technical terms used in the marketing of eqs cause soundwise there is almost no différence other than placebo effect
Old 1 week ago
  #15
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B Elgin's Avatar
 

Be sure to test the demo - supremely transparent with absolutely no pre- or post-echo as advertised.
Old 1 week ago
  #16
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastervargas View Post
it is nice they want to resurrect the old Algorithmix code and improve on it if I understood correctly, but as Fabian stated above, I think there are plenty of great Eqs around, with various linear implementations, so the market is pretty saturated. Nevertheless, it would've been welcomed by many but to come and ask almost the same price as more than a decade ago is insane IMO. I don't know what their deal is and honestly I don't know what that EQ could do to justify that price tag.
I'm not sure the market is saturated with top level extremely low artefact LP eq's actually. For mastering and classical / acoustic uses at least. The Algorithmix EQ's still set a very high bar sound wise (note I have never heard the Orange). The insult of Algorithmix is they still charge a high price for their products, yet almost refuse to give customer support. But I still haven't found modern tools that can replace the Blue or Red EQ or Renovator.

A thing about MAAT's price is it could be a self inflicted injury in my opinion. I'm pretty sure MAAT would sell more than 4 times the number of plugins at $250, than they will at $990 - but they may have high licensing costs. They also signalled it would be in this price bracket some months ago. Needs a (v3) hardware CodeMeter too - the two I already have for Sequoia will not work for it. I like hardware dongles, but given the low distribution for CodeMeter, that feels a bit like socialising the cost of their product protection!

Last edited by potscrubber; 1 week ago at 12:26 AM.. Reason: clarity
Old 1 week ago
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by potscrubber View Post
But I still haven't found tools that can replace the Blue EQ or Renovator.
I remember reading somewhere the blue eq's algo was used on SSL's eq plug-in (x-eq), but that was a long time ago can't remember the source.
Old 1 week ago
  #18
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cooker View Post
I remember reading somewhere the blue eq's algo was used on SSL's eq plug-in (x-eq), but that was a long time ago can't remember the source.
It's true, but apparently not the full 80-bit extended floating point calculations which people smarter than me say is part of the "magic".
Old 1 week ago
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by potscrubber View Post
It's true, but apparently not the full 80-bit extended floating point calculations which people smarter than me say is part of the "magic".
oh, hmmmm the only eq I know of which has that is the psp masterq2 PSP MasterQ2 a precise, surgical EQ plug-in for mastering or a color processor for sound design and mixing!
Old 1 week ago
  #20
Hi, my first post here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FabienTDR View Post
To be fair, Algorithmix's approach was quite clever and impressive back then.
I know Christoph and he has a really big mind. He invented a lot of unbelievable audio gadgets. He was the master mind behind the research department at Sennheiser.
Well, long story short, they sent me the dongle (another 50 bucks) last week, so I think in 1 or 2 weeks I will get a beta version. I will do a test and we will see if all the promises are true. But the first thing is: If it sounds better than all other EQs on the market, it will shake up the mastering industry.

Thom
Old 1 week ago
  #21
To be honest, I care less about how it sounds than about the way it is presented. Confusing the audience with such "mistakes" or "typos" is somewhat impolite, especially from an authority meaning to revolutionize established tech and logic.



A dirac impulse (i.e. an IR without pre and post echos) logically cannot affect the spectrum.

A linear phase Impulse Response must be symmetric, i.e. have exactly the same pre and post echo. Otherwise, it's not linear phase.

The shape of a linear phase IR directly depends on the requested filter magnitude. If you want steep/edgy/sharp curves in your EQ's filter magnitude, then you must accept an IR that, under the microscope, looks as if it had "pre echoes". The lower the cutoff, the wider these "wobbles" become.


There is absolutely no room for deviating from these facts, especially not in the context of "clean" (= no distortion, no noise, no ripple, a perfectly linear system within bounds of the sampling theorem).

Further, linear phase is not ideal for operations within the audible bandwidth. It tends to seriously deform anything transient they affect.

Last edited by FabienTDR; 1 week ago at 03:20 AM..
Old 1 week ago
  #22
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Old 1 week ago
  #23
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teebaum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by FabienTDR View Post
To be honest, I care less about how it sounds than about the way it is presented. Confusing the audience with such "mistakes" or "typos" is somewhat impolite, especially from an authority meaning to revolutionize established tech and logic.



A dirac impulse (i.e. an IR without pre and post echos) logically cannot affect the spectrum.

A linear phase Impulse Response must be symmetric, i.e. have exactly the same pre and post echo. Otherwise, it's not linear phase.

The shape of a linear phase IR directly depends on the requested filter magnitude. If you want steep/edgy/sharp curves in your EQ's filter magnitude, then you must accept an IR that, under the microscope, looks as if it had "pre echoes". The lower the cutoff, the wider these "wobbles" become.


There is absolutely no room for deviating from these facts, especially not in the context of "clean" (= noise distortion, no noise, no ripple, a perfectly linear system within bounds of the sampling theorem).

Further, linear phase is not ideal for operations within the audible bandwidth. They tend to seriously deform anything transient they affect.
Thanks, Fabian, 100% on the point, I couldn't have said it so well.
Old 1 week ago
  #24
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FabienTDR View Post
Further, linear phase is not ideal for operations within the audible bandwidth. It tends to seriously deform anything transient they affect.
But sometimes it is desireable, especially if you are trying to maintain phase relationships between sources with a high degree of spill (i.e. classical production), and in such cases, a small amount of pre ringing (from a high quality LP EQ), may be an acceptable trade-off.
Old 1 week ago
  #25
Quote:
Originally Posted by potscrubber View Post
A thing about MAAT's price is it could be a self inflicted injury in my opinion. I'm pretty sure MAAT would sell more than 4 times the number of plugins at $250, than they will at $990
maybe they proposed the $990 price tag to create a buzz, then sell it for $250 so everybody thinks they got a huge deal
Old 1 week ago
  #26
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I don t know much about technical aspects but everything we record with a converter or listening thought it is also affected with pre ringing?
Also some transformers gears ( including some respected ones)mess the transients and it can also sound a bit similar to LP ..
Overall eqs that let you adjust the amount of pre ringing by bands ( let you adjust from phase to lp) should be the most transparent cause in many case a little inaudible or almost inaudible pre ringing is more transparent than some phase shift, the sound stay tighter in a way it Can sound more analog sometimes ..strangely
Old 1 week ago
  #27
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JP__'s Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred_Abstract View Post
I don t know much about technical aspects but everything we record with a converter or listening thought it is also affected with pre ringing?
Yes, but as Fabien mentioned its only at the end of the audible range (Nyquist theorem). This is also why most converters are internally upsample/oversample.

Quote:
Also some transformers gears ( including some respected ones)mess the transients and it can also sound a bit similar to LP ..
Hell no... Its very different to LP in fact, theory and result.

Quote:
Overall eqs that let you adjust the amount of pre ringing by bands ( let you adjust from phase to lp) should be the most transparent cause in many case a little inaudible or almost inaudible pre ringing is more transparent than some phase shift, the sound stay tighter in a way it Can sound more analog sometimes ..strangely
I would say, the higher the freq the less audible is preringing maybe. But still a linear phase upsampling filter can easily mess the sense of depth of a recording. Easy to prove with RXs upsampling filters, for example. Very interesting test imho.


Still Im very curious to hear/see what this EQ is able to deliver as I still see a lot of unexplored territory in digital filter designs (beside the so called textbooked approach). In the end it should be the ear that judges and not some theories. Finally an ultraclean EQ would be a personal dream of mine.
Buying an exotic dongle for demoing is a huge bummer unfortunately (still have a early CodeMeter here, but this doesnt seem to work right?)...
Old 6 days ago
  #28
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stinkyfingers's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mustgroove View Post
Really excited about these curves...
Old 6 days ago
  #29
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Am I missing something?

The EQ could "shake up the industry" and "could be a big step in EQ history"

But it's more than ten years old....?
Old 6 days ago
  #30
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Chris Chapelle's Avatar
 

Jesus, Yahvé, Allah, Bouddha, Satan, or the one you like should have put something special in it......

Science proved, it is not possible.... Any fans of the creationism EQ ?

With no offense, I like defaults.

Last edited by Chris Chapelle; 6 days ago at 02:38 PM.. Reason: wrong orthograph
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