The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Top end roll-off
Old 12th July 2018
  #1
Gear Head
 

Top end roll-off

Hi

I'm about to release something on vinyl and am aware of distortion issues at the top. Am I safe to leave low-vol frequencies between 10 & 20 khz, or should I be right down by around 15? IF you could give me any pointers that would be great.

Cheers

Jez
Old 12th July 2018
  #2
Here for the gear
 

Submit your master as-is. Don't do any special processing. If you have concerns, just let the cutting engineer know about it when you send your master in.
Old 12th July 2018
  #3
Lives for gear
 
Trakworx's Avatar
Vinyl is capable of reproducing frequencies well above 20kHz. Comparison of analog and digital recording - Wikipedia

Despite that there are some cutting engineers who seem to resist HF content. There's a vinyl company near me who will reject audio files with content above 16k. They even named their company "16kHz" (!) I find that requirement to be unreasonable. Seems to me like they should have the ability to make cuts with more bandwidth than that. Am I wrong?
Old 13th July 2018
  #4
Lives for gear
 
Greg Reierson's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Don't roll it off. The cutting engineer will do that if necessary. But do pay extra attention to intense HF things like sibilance and distortion. They can cause trouble on an otherwise perfectly fine master.
Old 13th July 2018
  #5
Lives for gear
 
Shawn Hatfield's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Reierson View Post
Don't roll it off. The cutting engineer will do that if necessary. But do pay extra attention to intense HF things like sibilance and distortion. They can cause trouble on an otherwise perfectly fine master.
Have to reiterate what Greg said. Be very careful of sibilance, cymbals, and lately I've been seeing a lot of modular-based music with very interesting (dangerous) frequencies up in the high end that do not like to cut to vinyl. A talented/skilled cutting engineer will know what to do to make the cut work and is equipped with the tools to make it happen. Even then, sometimes only a test pressing will reveal problems down the line. Always, always get a test pressing!

Old 13th July 2018
  #6
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trakworx View Post
There's a vinyl company near me who will reject audio files with content above 16k. They even named their company "16kHz" (!) I find that requirement to be unreasonable. Seems to me like they should have the ability to make cuts with more bandwidth than that. Am I wrong?
I just read their instructions on preparing cutting masters. There's a lot of misinformation in there, yes.

It's truly a shame when a client needlessly processes their record because of guidance like this. My goal when cutting a lacquer for someone is the truest-possible translation of their master.

Sure, mono-ing the low-end, or rolling off high frequencies isn't the biggest deal -- it's not like you're changing the words to the song or something. But we get paid to sweat the details.
Old 13th July 2018
  #7
Lives for gear
 
Greg Reierson's Avatar
 

Verified Member
+1 on that.

Last edited by Greg Reierson; 14th July 2018 at 01:06 PM..
Old 14th July 2018
  #8
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trakworx View Post
Vinyl is capable of reproducing frequencies well above 20kHz. Comparison of analog and digital recording - Wikipedia

--------------- Am I wrong?
I don't think you are wrong, but I think the article may just be saying its possible to cut those frequencies, without regard to what impact it would have on the rest of the stuff.

I'm sure someone other than me can explain what effect / problems could result from a lot of high frequency content. I would be interested to know more about it.




TPIJNTF


p
Old 14th July 2018
  #9
Lives for gear
 
Greg Reierson's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Sure, you can get 20k on vinyl, but at a very low level. You can NOT get 20k at 0VU like you can with digital. That's why a sibilant or heavily limited digital master is no fun to cut.

That Wikipedia article is OK but it's not complete. Cutting a groove is not the problem. Reproducing the groove is the real challenge. I have cut from 44k1 sources (audio band limited to 22k), recorded the cut back into digital at 96k and, magically, the harmonics go all the way to 48k. Of course, everything above 22k is distortion. That's not commonly understood and gets glossed over in articles like that.

Last edited by Greg Reierson; 15th July 2018 at 07:14 PM..
Old 14th July 2018
  #10
Lives for gear
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Reierson View Post
... I have cut from 44k1 sources (audio band limited to 22k), recorded the cut back into digital at 96k and, magically, the harmonics go all the way to 48k. Of course, everything above 22k is distortion. That's not commonly understood and gets glossed over in articles like that.
brave man! your quote should get used as a sticky on top of every thread dealing with dsd or other esoteric formats :-)
Old 14th July 2018
  #11
Lives for gear
 
Trakworx's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Reierson View Post
I have cut from 44k1 sources (audio band limited to 22k), recorded the cut back into digital at 96k and, magically, the harmonics go all the way to 48k. Of course, everything above 22k is distortion.
That's interesting!

What happens if the original source is 96k with content above 22k that's not just distortion?
Old 14th July 2018
  #12
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Reierson View Post
Sure, you can get 20k on vinyl, but at a very low level. You can NOT get 20k at 0VU like you can with digital. That's why a sibilant or heavily limited digital master is no fun to cut.

That Wikipedia article is OK but it's not complete. Cutting a groove is not the problem. Reproducing the groove is the real chanllenge. I have cut from 44k1 sources (audio band limited to 22k), recorded the cut back into digital at 96k and, magically, the harmonics go all the way to 48k. Of course, everything above 22k is distortion. That's not commonly understood and gets glossed over in articles like that.
I feel like you should write a sticky post about preparing vinyl cutting masters, as this subject comes up so often!
Old 14th July 2018
  #13
Lives for gear
 
Greg Reierson's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Every cutting engineer has a FAQ It's all out there. FAQ

It may not be good marketing on my part to say this, but cutting engineers control anything approaching 20K very carefully. 96k and DSD are capable of extreme HF that must be filtered before cutting. Both are overkill for vinyl in the frequency domain. If there's supersonic content (>20k) it's only going to cause trouble for the cutting head and for the playback stylus. Quad discs were cut with voodoo to get the >20k modulated signal into the groove, and they must be played back with specific styli and a decoder. Your average $100 cartridge won't get you there.

But that's not to say some don't hear a difference when using hi-res sources. They may, but it's not due to faithful reproduction of >20k content. They may prefer the audible in-band difference between the system. And, in the end, that's all that really matters. So when a client sends hi-res sources, even though we filter them to fit within the limitations of vinyl, we still cut from them.

The bottom line for me is that vinyl is more about aesthetic than fidelity. If you want high fidelity, go with hi-res digital. If you want mojo, go with vinyl.
Old 14th July 2018
  #14
Lives for gear
 
Greg Reierson's Avatar
 

Verified Member
It took some digging but I found an old post about >20k content on vinyl. Start at post #73 .

Vinyl that is AAA certified

And the test files I mentioned in posts #76 and #81 .

WeTransfer
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump