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What are your favorite headphones in the mastering room. Studio Headphones
Old 5th April 2018
  #61
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the unik's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by FabienTDR View Post
Most ME's use amps, speakers and acoustic treatment easily 10 times as expensive.

Businesses declare such expenses. You effectively pay with your businesses' taxes (or the working class pays your classy headphone, depending on the perspective ). Consumers buying pro stuff is "crazy". But businesses buying pro gear is totally healthy.

This high end stuff also uses to last. Bought my last pair 15 years ago, headphone amp overhauled 5 years ago or so.
I couldn't give a better answer
Old 5th April 2018
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the unik View Post
Well I didn't hear the Elear myself so I cannot speak about them, but surely the Spirit pro are a great set of headphones to compliment the listening tools needed for mastering. Especially for the mids clarity and details, and also for the perception of dynamic between the instrument, that I rarely encountered like this with any other set of cans. They lack some sub basses for sure, starting to roll off around 40 / 35 hz, and the ultra highs are not very "subttle". And this is were the Audeze LCD-X takes the win . Crazy amount of details and they simply rock for electronic music overall. They are colored, but in a nice way, and still well balanced when you know them. I also agree that the build quality was a big issue with the Spirit pro. My guess is that they went on production with an unreliable chinese manufacturer, unfortunately. Trying to custom build something for them at the moment.
Please let me know how that goes. Again, I have two pair; I had been especially receptive to them and valued how unforgiving they were in the midrange.

If you find away to bolster their housing, I’d really love to know.

Meanwhile, please know that they collect dust ever since the Elears have been in my hands.

Old 6th April 2018
  #63
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teebaum's Avatar
today i had the opportunity to listen to the audeze lcd-x and to compare it directly in my control room with the loudspeakers.
without a plugin, the headphones in the upper mid area are a bit missing. even the company's own reveal-plugin does not solve the problem, but rather sounds a little phasey.
the bass range, on the other hand, seems pretty clean, dynamic and balanced after this short test.
the distortion and noise in the source material were also well audible, but I missed some resolution of the transients.
maybe the sonarworks plugin can do a little more. but i'm not convinced enough to make this investment, the headphones don't give me any additional information that would be a real addition to my monitoring.

Last edited by teebaum; 6th April 2018 at 09:38 AM..
Old 6th April 2018
  #64
I'm interested in Beyerdynamic 1990. If they updated the openback 990's and made them even better, these might be the bomb.
Old 6th April 2018
  #65
Quote:
Originally Posted by teebaum View Post
without a plugin, the headphones in the upper mid area are a bit missing. even the company's own reveal-plugin does not solve the mE problem, but rather sounds a little phased.
it's pretty the same with almost all planar magnetic headphones.
good-great bass.
not satisfying-terrible UM-HF (it's not just about the linearity: but, as you said, also about the quality of that area with is not convincing)
Mids: ok-very good (again some qualitative issues with the lcdx: e.g. too much saturation/distortion?)

_______________________

i've been using the electro-estatic "ear-speakers" now for about 2 years: Jecklin Float QA (the newest QA version)..

it's a little bass-light (like almost all electro-stastic HP), the bass can be EQed a little. it (the bass) is never as dynamic und weighty sounding as a planar magnetics. but it's fine.
on the other hand the mids, upper mids, HF are sounding really fantastic!

and it shows everything from a great "jecklin Float QA" perspective to me which is always welcome.

_______________________

PS
the hd800: never could work with it really. the new HD820 seems to be a little better: not as brutally harsh sounding...
Old 6th April 2018
  #66
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thermos's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by teebaum View Post
today i had the opportunity to listen to the audeze lcd-x and to compare it directly in my control room with the loudspeakers.
without a plugin, the headphones in the upper mid area are a bit missing. even the company's own reveal-plugin does not solve the problem, but rather sounds a little phasey.
the bass range, on the other hand, seems pretty clean, dynamic and balanced after this short test.
the distortion and noise in the source material were also well audible, but I missed some resolution of the transients.
maybe the sonarworks plugin can do a little more. but i'm not convinced enough to make this investment, the headphones don't give me any additional information that would be a real addition to my monitoring.
Interesting, thanks. What headphone amp were you using? When I listened I thought the upper mids were pretty there (with Reveal) but I could have been fooling myself. I didn't really like it with Sonarworks, seemed to take the immediacy away and slow down the transients somewhat.

Last edited by thermos; 6th April 2018 at 10:46 PM..
Old 6th April 2018
  #67
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Planar i like the hifiman He560 , they may be underrated ,specially for the price, check a review who compare to lcdX
Battle of the Modern Planars: LCD-X vs PM-1 vs HE-560 | Head-Fi.org

the stregnth for me is the dynamic/ transient ,it s tight and responsive, low is not much hyped and release (very) quick, the mids is decent, the more you go in the highs the less it s good /detailed , overall sound color is quite neutral and realistic for a headphone at this price ( tonal balance/ dynamic )

Last edited by Fred_Abstract; 6th April 2018 at 07:19 PM..
Old 10th April 2018
  #68
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fradoca's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by thermos View Post
Interesting, thanks. What headphone amp were you using? When I listened I thought the upper mids were pretty there (with Reveal) but I could have been fooling myself. I didn't really like it with Sonarworks, seemed to take the immediacy away and slow down the transients somewhat.
i use the latest version of the lcd-x with the lastest drivers.I use a powerful solid state balanced amp to drive them.I feel that sonarworks is better than Reveal and Morphit as a dsp for the lcd-x.Beware the fact that the headphone if new needs a proper burn-in period and the sound changes quite a bit after the burn-in process.
Old 10th April 2018
  #69
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thermos's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by fradoca View Post
i use the latest version of the lcd-x with the lastest drivers.I use a powerful solid state balanced amp to drive them.I feel that sonarworks is better than Reveal and Morphit as a dsp for the lcd-x.Beware the fact that the headphone if new needs a proper burn-in period and the sound changes quite a bit after the burn-in process.
Thanks. Interestingly, Audeze includes a linear phase version of correction in their Roon software, but not in Reveal. I requested that they add it to Reveal as an option, but they said they don't have any plans to because of the latency involved. If they get enough requests they will do it, so request away!
Old 10th April 2018
  #70
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I prefer my open back Audeze EL8 to the LCD-X. Also Beyer 1770 is great for another perspective...and for general balancing Focal Spirit Pro.
Old 10th April 2018
  #71
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Raddler's Avatar
Ok, I seriously think we need to include the new focal clear's and sennheiser HD660s into this conversation.
Old 10th April 2018
  #72
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fradoca's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by thermos View Post
Thanks. Interestingly, Audeze includes a linear phase version of correction in their Roon software, but not in Reveal. I requested that they add it to Reveal as an option, but they said they don't have any plans to because of the latency involved. If they get enough requests they will do it, so request away!
it seems that we requested the same thing getting back the same answers
Old 10th April 2018
  #73
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thermos's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by fradoca View Post
it seems that we requested the same thing getting back the same answers
True, but strength in numbers! They should definitely include this option as it would most certainly help sell more headphones to professionals.
Old 11th April 2018
  #74
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chet.d's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thermos View Post
Thanks. Interestingly, Audeze includes a linear phase version of correction in their Roon software, but not in Reveal. I requested that they add it to Reveal as an option, but they said they don't have any plans to because of the latency involved. If they get enough requests they will do it, so request away!
This got me very interested in Roon. As I understand it after asking their kind support folks, although Roon is a company they're closely assocciated with,
They didn't seem to follow my question about if they may consider adding that tech to Reveal. Seemingly a different can of worms so to speak.

I know this does not address imaging, linear phase etc. but, I need to at least try/test coming up with a LCD X friendly (+db or so to lower & upper top end) preset for something like TDR slick m.
Maybe not ideal but?
Other than the small (yet reasonably appreciable) recession up top, after much burn in for the latest X ver. I like them a lot.
Old 11th April 2018
  #75
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teebaum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by thermos View Post
Interesting, thanks. What headphone amp were you using?
tc bmc2 & mytek 8x192
mytek was much better

my buddy who own the lcd-x has the same impression & he is in contact with manny marroquin, who have also the same impression (missing resolution in the upper mids) and AFAIk he work now with audeze on a optimized version for mixing

Last edited by teebaum; 11th April 2018 at 03:18 PM..
Old 11th April 2018
  #76
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thermos's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chet.d View Post
This got me very interested in Roon. As I understand it after asking their kind support folks, although Roon is a company they're closely assocciated with,
They didn't seem to follow my question about if they may consider adding that tech to Reveal. Seemingly a different can of worms so to speak.

I know this does not address imaging, linear phase etc. but, I need to at least try/test coming up with a LCD X friendly (+db or so to lower & upper top end) preset for something like TDR slick m.
Maybe not ideal but?
Other than the small (yet reasonably appreciable) recession up top, after much burn in for the latest X ver. I like them a lot.
I plan to bring reveal into plugin doctor and try to match the curves of the headphones I'm getting (LCD-I4 for traveling) with Equilibrium. Then I can choose what kind of phase I want, etc. In my limited testing I didn't mind reveal but it wasn't prolonged testing.
Old 11th April 2018
  #77
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thermos's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by teebaum View Post
tc bmc2 & mytek 8x192
mytek was much better

my buddy who own the lcd-x has the same impression & he is in contact with manny marroquin, who have also the same impression (missing resoltution in the upper mids) and AFAIk he work now with audeze on a optimized version for mixing
Mytek headphone amps are great. Thats cool, they should definitely come out with a line of optimized phones for engineers.
Old 11th April 2018
  #78
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chet.d's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thermos View Post
I plan to bring reveal into plugin doctor and try to match the curves of the headphones I'm getting (LCD-I4 for traveling) with Equilibrium. Then I can choose what kind of phase I want, etc. In my limited testing I didn't mind reveal but it wasn't prolonged testing.
Please keep us posted on that if possible. Or a PM if you'd like.
After getting through some current work I may reluctantly update OS to try Reveal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by teebaum View Post
tc bmc2 & mytek 8x192
mytek was much better

my buddy who own the lcd-x has the same impression & he is in contact with manny marroquin, who have also the same impression (missing resoltution in the upper mids) and AFAIk he work now with audeze on a optimized version for mixing
Interesting having just gotten the X so recently but I get it.

Last edited by chet.d; 11th April 2018 at 02:18 AM..
Old 11th April 2018
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thermos View Post
..Interestingly, Audeze includes a linear phase version of correction in their Roon software, but not in Reveal. I requested that they add it to Reveal as an option, but they said they don't have any plans to because of the latency involved. If they get enough requests they will do it, so request away!
Why do you think, LP version of correction is better. You've tested Roon against Reveal plugin and preferred the first?
IME most of LP filters soften the transients are inherently less natural than conventional filters.. besides that, unless the correction is extreme, phase shift associated with conventional correction will be rather small (esp. when you reduce amount of the correction).
Other than that, I can see reasons for IIR filters in Reveal, because there's no associated latency, when someone use that for monitoring.

Of course, that approach with approximation of particular correction curve via other EQ can be fine, as you've mentioned, you can adjust it exactly as you like.. make curves smoother, LP etc.

I was curious about mentioned LCD-X corrections and Audeze plugin. I haven't heard LCD-X, but frankly I was never so convinced about their previous headphone models (making some distinction between casual music listening vs. magnifying glass.. I can see someone might like it for the first use).

So I've made couple of plots correction curves in Reveal and Morphit (flat and standard target for comparisons.. with Reveal as yellow overlay).. it shows rather a different approach to measurement and correction between TB and Audeze. Those plots were obtained with 100% of correction applied just for the comparison, it would be likely reduced in practical listening situation.

Michal
Attached Thumbnails
What are your favorite headphones in the mastering room.-morphit-flat.png   What are your favorite headphones in the mastering room.-morphit-studio.png   What are your favorite headphones in the mastering room.-reveal-plugin.png  
Old 12th April 2018
  #80
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Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

Verified Member
still using the Alessandro Grado Music Series One headphones for many years... 15 perhaps.

Eric Johnson’s engineer Richard Mullen brought them over one day about 2002, raving about them.

they’re $100, and sound just great, very flat.

although after few years of daily use they tend to wear out, I’m on my 5th pair.

also using the Benchmark DAC1 as HP amplifier.

spending 1500$ on a pair of Audeze seems ludicrous to me,

but to each his own...

Alessandro MS1 Review

Alessandro Products | Headphones

best, jt

p.s. all that said, I’ve got great Dunlavy Monitors and Stereo Subs, and don’t rely on headphones for EQ decisions.
Old 12th April 2018
  #81
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Raddler's Avatar
Can we get some more opinions about the lcd-x? I tried them yesterday for a few hours and really like them, but I went in to the headphone store with the intent of buying either the focal elear's, focal clears or the new senn HD660s's.....All are great, but the lcd-x really shines in the low end, I can finally hear the sub bass! I'm currently using a pair of HD 600's which I love, but the sub bass just isn't there, I'm sick of the guess work.

The LCD-X' sound so completely different from the other's that I find myself gambling into unknown sonic territory, I am not used to that kind of sound compared to my HD600's. I want to be sure that mixes will translate well and that I'm not being "tricked" by the incredible sounding LCD-X's. Do you lcd-x owners find the bass translates well? ....One negative was that I found the soundstage fairly narrow.

The new senn 660s are really more top end present, but again, they neglected to "fix" the sub bass issue. The focal elear is next up in the sub bass department, but it's a very full sounding headphone, not very neutral at all. The clear's are better for neutrality, but again, somewhat timid sub/low end. I'd really appreciate any opinions on these cans. I mix electronic music, techno and house style.....
Old 12th April 2018
  #82
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Jantex's Avatar
 

LCD-X are superb headphones, especially for music enjoyment, if you can cope with their weight for a longer period. But as much as I try to use them for location work, they simply sound too polite. Everything, and I mean it, everything sounds great with them. They don't give you any critical judgement, never tell you you are wrong. Anything you do with them sounds super great, just different. While with some headphones you have to learn their characteristic sound to be able to understand them and work with them, there is no need like this with LCD-X...because whatever you make, they will give you nods for your decision. I can do better translatable mixes with Apple AirPods in a short period.

But yes, for a pure al enjoyment, they can compare to B&W 801s in a superb room, with full and great bottom end, pleasant mids and smooth highs.
Old 12th April 2018
  #83
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chet.d's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
spending 1500$ on a pair of Audeze seems ludicrous to me,
Agreed but fair to say, their music maker package without the fancy case for them is 1200. As well, hifi folks often flip around hp’s On headfi and they can be found for around 900.
That said, the newest drivers should be a goal in that case. Might be a bit more elusive.
I’m also mixing not mastering so I have no business commenting w mastering considerations.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Raddler View Post
Can we get some more opinions about the lcd-x? I tried them yesterday for a few hours and really like them, but I went in to the headphone store with the intent of buying either the focal elear's, focal clears or the new senn HD660s's.....All are great, but the lcd-x really shines in the low end, I can finally hear the sub bass! I'm currently using a pair of HD 600's which I love, but the sub bass just isn't there, I'm sick of the guess work.
The lcd x bottom and mids are pretty great. I do agree w others that there’s a recession in the upper mid-lower top region. It can be dealt with though w small tweaks If one is inclined.
Thing is, every hp introduces a new set of compromises or considerations that are unavoidable ime.
Best to choose what speaks to you best.
Old 12th April 2018
  #84
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whippoorwill's Avatar
Has anyone tried the Sennheiser HD820? Closed-back version of the 800S, I really want to hear that, it could be amazing for Remote Audio..
Old 12th April 2018
  #85
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thermos's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by msmucr View Post
Why do you think, LP version of correction is better. You've tested Roon against Reveal plugin and preferred the first?
IME most of LP filters soften the transients are inherently less natural than conventional filters.. besides that, unless the correction is extreme, phase shift associated with conventional correction will be rather small (esp. when you reduce amount of the correction).
Other than that, I can see reasons for IIR filters in Reveal, because there's no associated latency, when someone use that for monitoring.

Of course, that approach with approximation of particular correction curve via other EQ can be fine, as you've mentioned, you can adjust it exactly as you like.. make curves smoother, LP etc.

I was curious about mentioned LCD-X corrections and Audeze plugin. I haven't heard LCD-X, but frankly I was never so convinced about their previous headphone models (making some distinction between casual music listening vs. magnifying glass.. I can see someone might like it for the first use).

So I've made couple of plots correction curves in Reveal and Morphit (flat and standard target for comparisons.. with Reveal as yellow overlay).. it shows rather a different approach to measurement and correction between TB and Audeze. Those plots were obtained with 100% of correction applied just for the comparison, it would be likely reduced in practical listening situation.

Michal
Any eqing of headphones has some pros and cons. I generally like minimum phase for pretty much anything, but with sonarworks for instance I prefer the middle position (which I believe is somewhere between minimum phase and linear phase?). The tone of the minimum phase sounds best but the phase isn't the most natural, it seems easier for instrument placement with less phase shift.

I tried morphit again and remember why I didn't like it when I tested, it actually hurt my ears even with slight correction. Looking at the graphs you provided that would maybe make sense, it did tend brighter than sonarworks for correction. But maybe Audeze is still baking in their "house sound" even with the Reveal plugin.
Old 12th April 2018
  #86
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thermos's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
still using the Alessandro Grado Music Series One headphones for many years... 15 perhaps.

Eric Johnson’s engineer Richard Mullen brought them over one day about 2002, raving about them.

they’re $100, and sound just great, very flat.

although after few years of daily use they tend to wear out, I’m on my 5th pair.

also using the Benchmark DAC1 as HP amplifier.

spending 1500$ on a pair of Audeze seems ludicrous to me,

but to each his own...

Alessandro MS1 Review

Alessandro Products | Headphones

best, jt

p.s. all that said, I’ve got great Dunlavy Monitors and Stereo Subs, and don’t rely on headphones for EQ decisions.
Headphones are moving beyond headphones, I think thats why people pay such money for them. My friend who is an A level mixer from LA is an Audeze LCD-3 user. When I told him about Can Opener and Reveal he said "this is the best monitoring system I've ever heard!"

These insanely expensive Audeze earbuds I just bought for instance have the most insane/flattest resolution on the bottom that I've ever heard. It would be really hard to do that with speakers at any price.
Old 12th April 2018
  #87
although i'm not an audeze/lcdx fan, i would suggest to use the lcdx balanced. the difference is quite big.
for this purpose: oppo ha1 is nice e.g. but something like the violectric v281 would be even better ;- )

... and do not forget the new focal clear. good headphone.
Old 12th April 2018
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raddler View Post
The new senn 660s are really more top end present, but again, they neglected to "fix" the sub bass issue. The focal elear is next up in the sub bass department, but it's a very full sounding headphone, not very neutral at all. The clear's are better for neutrality, but again, somewhat timid sub/low end. I'd really appreciate any opinions on these cans. I mix electronic music, techno and house style.....
As I've said before, I haven't heard LCD-X, but tested their previous more expensive models and wasn't so impressed for critical listening. Low end is amazing for cans, however I feel it bit woolly and lacking hi-mid detail.
Also it was bit uncomfortable and heavy to my liking.. and it's IMO very sensitive to used HP amps as it's very power hungry compared to most of standard electrodynamics phones, which limits its use.
Maybe they addressed it with this model, but as I read previous characteristics by others, some parts of that remains..

I was Sennheiser guy for years and mainly listened to HD600, HD580.. but had also open Beyers (bit better bass response than those Senns) and vintage Stax (stats are great for some classical and for overall change of perspective, it has really great detail at mids and highs, but it has tendency to naturally compress peaks).
My dream come true, when they released HD800.. it has bigger drivers and much better bass response than HD600 (assuming also HD660). Compared it with Tesla T1 at the time and ended with HD800.
IMO it needs quite moderate cut in presence range (before Morphit I've used standard EQ), to return that to reasonable proportion (it was partly addressed by HD800S), but after that, it's IMO marvelous sound, which combine superb HF detail and tight bass.
So if you are accustomed to and statisfied with HD600, then I can wholeheartedly recommend HD800.. not only bass would be better, and it's natural upgrade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whippoorwill View Post
Has anyone tried the Sennheiser HD820? Closed-back version of the 800S, I really want to hear that, it could be amazing for Remote Audio..
Briefly heard those (but not at my place or studio).. IMO it's unbelievable (not talking about pricepoint ), how they engineered closed cans (I use those only when it's really necessary.. otherwise I can't stand typical claustrophobic imaging) while retaining characteristics of their previously mentioned open cans.
Highly recommend to test it, if you're interested.

Michal
Old 12th April 2018
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thermos View Post
Any eqing of headphones has some pros and cons. I generally like minimum phase for pretty much anything, but with sonarworks for instance I prefer the middle position (which I believe is somewhere between minimum phase and linear phase?). The tone of the minimum phase sounds best but the phase isn't the most natural, it seems easier for instrument placement with less phase shift.
IIRC optimum phase in SW is somewhat inbetween LP and MP.. it's LP kernel, but with limited overal latency.
I don't know about its interaction with LCD-X, but I was just curious, because I generally always preferred MP.

Quote:
I tried morphit again and remember why I didn't like it when I tested, it actually hurt my ears even with slight correction. Looking at the graphs you provided that would maybe make sense, it did tend brighter than sonarworks for correction. But maybe Audeze is still baking in their "house sound" even with the Reveal plugin.
Yes, it's interesting how those (Reveal, Morphit) correction curves differ (maybe I can ask Jeroen about that).
I'm not sure about the reason for hurting your ears with slight correction and Morphit.. maybe the corr. curve isn't completely right (it could be for sure adjusted by tweak of target in Morphit custom mode and reducing of overal highs).
Anyway, one attribute, why I like Morphit is, it gradually soften the correction curve, when you alter the amount.. which I hear as more natural with phones, I'm using.
Most of other correction effects simply blends processed and unprocessed sound.. so for instance cuts aren't so deep, but steepness of filter pretty much remains.. (then personally I feel, I can hear those steep filters as disturbing in some situations). Better to show that at picture.. (LCD-X correction to studio target increasing by 20% to 100%).

Michal
Attached Thumbnails
What are your favorite headphones in the mastering room.-morphit_lcdx_intensity_scl.png  
Old 12th April 2018
  #90
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@thermos
I realized, that I've tested SW3 years ago and not its last version, so was curious after all the plotting
So the last batch of pics with LCD-X correction.

Interestingly for ZL, optimum and LP variants there is not just phase change of the correction curve, but also its magnitude response towards low (just this alone might be reason for preference of particular mode, it's 1.5dB diff. around 30Hz).. seemingly they process the same IR, but just truncating its leading (anticausal part) to reduce latency. This IR part is completely omitted in ZL mode with slightly higher CPU consumption. That's why there are ripples at some processing modes, this doesn't have anything with measured curve, but it's result of IR truncation.
Associated phase shift is rather small with particular correction in ZL mode, can't tell, whether it can significantly affect perception of instrument placement.. but of course, your taste is king

So three detailed mag+phase responses of SW4 and finally composite magnitude comparison of all correction tools with its respective LCD-X preset.

I'm gonna to further "relisten" SW4 with my phones, but so far with quick listening, it's pretty much the same as with previous version.

Michal
Attached Thumbnails
What are your favorite headphones in the mastering room.-lcd-x-comparison-all.png   What are your favorite headphones in the mastering room.-lcd-x-sw-lp.png   What are your favorite headphones in the mastering room.-lcd-x-sw-optimal.png   What are your favorite headphones in the mastering room.-lcd-x-sw-zl.png  
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