The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
What are your favorite headphones in the mastering room. Studio Headphones
Old 25th January 2019
  #391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henrik Hjortnaes View Post
@adl, you are very helpful, thank you for that. But...



This is my concern. I simply cannot accept that $500+ headphones NEED post EQ to perform adequately. The 1990 Pro's are way too prominent in the sibilance area 7-12 kHz. They are not useable without EQ in my view. I cannot accept that. I cannot accept that they are locked to a software EQ and therefore can't perform on their own.

I find it very strange that they are tuned like this. Why is that? Do people prefer this crazy sibilance? I don't hear the same sibilance on my two pairs of speakers (Dynaudio LYD48 and Genelec 8020D).

My Audio Technica ATH-M50x have somewhat the same curve, but with less amplitude variation and they are almost usable on their own - but they only cost $120, so I can forgive that they are not perfect.

I must say that the 1990's WITH Sonarworks sounds way better than the M50x WITH Sonarworks.

I would love to hear if people here all use EQ with their headphones. Do you?
And if so, why do you accept it?




No, I'm worried that this is a general flaw with headphones and I don't know what to do now.

Beyer is bright. See if you can step up to Focal Elear/Clear..
Old 25th January 2019
  #392
Gear Addict
 
whippoorwill's Avatar
I recorded some tracks on my pioneer se-monitor5's and then brought them into a northward mastering room with giant ATC (150 I think?) recently to hear them.
No Eq was needed on most of the tracks, i.e. no translation issues between the systems. I don't use EQ with them although I have put a sennheiser hd600 like foam in the ear pads to dampen the highs a tad. Acoustic EQ.
Your mileage etc. etc.
Old 25th January 2019
  #393
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henrik Hjortnaes View Post
@adl, you are very helpful, thank you for that. But...



This is my concern. I simply cannot accept that $500+ headphones NEED post EQ to perform adequately. The 1990 Pro's are way too prominent in the sibilance area 7-12 kHz. They are not useable without EQ in my view. I cannot accept that. I cannot accept that they are locked to a software EQ and therefore can't perform on their own.

I find it very strange that they are tuned like this. Why is that? Do people prefer this crazy sibilance? I don't hear the same sibilance on my two pairs of speakers (Dynaudio LYD48 and Genelec 8020D).

My Audio Technica ATH-M50x have somewhat the same curve, but with less amplitude variation and they are almost usable on their own - but they only cost $120, so I can forgive that they are not perfect.

I must say that the 1990's WITH Sonarworks sounds way better than the M50x WITH Sonarworks.

I would love to hear if people here all use EQ with their headphones. Do you?
And if so, why do you accept it?




No, I'm worried that this is a general flaw with headphones and I don't know what to do now.
Well, since you asked...
Yes, I do EQ my DT1990 (in my case with Toneboosters Morphit, 50% wet), which tames the 10K area a bit. I also use Goodhertz Canopener for Crossfeed (since the stereo imaging in headphones could also be described as a "general flaw with headphones", right?)
Having said that, I love the 1990 for what they are! This is just my opinion, of course. My perspective:

- I have them for a good month. I don't want to discuss the topic of "break in", but I definately got more accustomed to them, they sound less hard in the high mid/presence-area to me now

- i don't know, if a flat response is always the goal. I get used to sound characteristics and "learn" how stuff translates. I think our ears and brains are phenomenal in this adaptive process.

- one mans "sibilant" is another mans "detailed". These cans tell me everything regarding noise, potential harshness, pops and clicks, bad edits. They are zooming in on a very important area, which helps me identify problems. It also prevents me in turning them up to much, since I can hear detail at low levels.

- It helps to feed them with a nicely amplified signal (ADI 2-Pro here)

- Frequency respone is one thing. Imaging, Transient Response and Soundstage are stellar to me

Having said that, I also have a pair of Oppos PM-3, which is basically on the opposite side. It's a great couple, because I also need a closed back model and the Oppos are VERY unhyped and natural sounding (in fact, the EQ curve for them in TB Morphit BOOSTS the high frequencies... ). But they are not even close in all other aspects.

I like the 1990 very much. My mixes translate great.
Old 25th January 2019
  #394
Gear Maniac
 

I'm still reading through various headphone reviews, but it's difficult to make any sort of decision without actually trying headphones.

I bought Sonarworks to use with my HD600, but I don't think that combination is going to work for me.

I'm beginning to think that having multiple sets of headphones might be a good option. I made a basic recording the other night, and used the Ultimate Ears Reference Monitor earphones to set some of the basic sounds. These earphones also seem to be the best I have for setting mix levels. I have a pair of Grado in-ears which are quite detailed in the mid-range and treble, then I have some cheapo Koss PortaPros which have a warm sound with a richer bass. I used them to see if the bass and kick drum were at good levels. Finally, the HD600 were used to see if the overall mix sounded pleasing. I also added a bit of reverb using the HD600. The end track seems to be translating well in the few systems I've tried it, so that's an improvement for me!

Perhaps, with experience, it will be possible to do the entire process with one set of these headphones. However, I think checking with multiple pairs which have differing voicings might be a good option.

I'll also continue my search for the perfect headphone (the Pioneer has piqued my interest).
Old 25th January 2019
  #395
Lives for gear
 
blaugruen7's Avatar
i have sonarworksand the hd600, too.

and i think the mixture of monitors/ headphones during the day and headphones
during the night is terrific!

i think the hd600 and sonarworks is terrific. love this
Old 25th January 2019
  #396
adl
Gear Addict
 
adl's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deejayen View Post
I'm still reading through various headphone reviews, but it's difficult to make any sort of decision without actually trying headphones.

I bought Sonarworks to use with my HD600, but I don't think that combination is going to work for me.

I'm beginning to think that having multiple sets of headphones might be a good option. I made a basic recording the other night, and used the Ultimate Ears Reference Monitor earphones to set some of the basic sounds. These earphones also seem to be the best I have for setting mix levels. I have a pair of Grado in-ears which are quite detailed in the mid-range and treble, then I have some cheapo Koss PortaPros which have a warm sound with a richer bass. I used them to see if the bass and kick drum were at good levels. Finally, the HD600 were used to see if the overall mix sounded pleasing. I also added a bit of reverb using the HD600. The end track seems to be translating well in the few systems I've tried it, so that's an improvement for me!

Perhaps, with experience, it will be possible to do the entire process with one set of these headphones. However, I think checking with multiple pairs which have differing voicings might be a good option.

I'll also continue my search for the perfect headphone (the Pioneer has piqued my interest).
I agree with using multiple headphones to get the best overall resuls. I really love the Beyerdynamic Dt1990 Pro (with Sonarworks) but have found that bass is still an issue (I mix it too loud usually). I now got some Sennheiser mx 400 MK2 in ear headphones, which are quite bass heavy and really show me, when the bass level is too high. I really have to get back and forth using the Beyerdynamic, the Sennheiser and my Adam A7 Monitors with Adam Sub 8 to get a good mix, which translates well.
Old 25th January 2019
  #397
I have a pair of M1060 Monoprice planars here. They are made by Audez. I paid $199 on sale. 10 to 50k hz with that Audez smoothness.
Old 25th January 2019
  #398
Lives for gear
 
bcgood's Avatar
 

Verified Member
For me personally I don't like the idea of manipulating the signal going to your headphones with digital eq and other plug in processing. I just want to learn my headphones and then use them in conjunction with my monitors to make good decisions. If you have a good converter and a good headphone amp then once you become familiar with a good pair of headphones that should be enough, it really isn't that complicated.
Old 26th January 2019
  #399
Gear Head
 
Bodhifile's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
I have a pair of M1060 Monoprice planars here. They are made by Audez. I paid $199 on sale. 10 to 50k hz with that Audez smoothness.
Pretty sure Monoprice basically copied Audeze (Audeze doesn't make them). I used to have M1060C's. Descent for the $. The mod for M1060 supposedly fixes the high freq spike that they are known to have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bcgood View Post
For me personally I don't like the idea of manipulating the signal going to your headphones with digital eq and other plug in processing. I just want to learn my headphones and then use them in conjunction with my monitors to make good decisions. If you have a good converter and a good headphone amp then once you become familiar with a good pair of headphones that should be enough, it really isn't that complicated.
Agreed. I still think that Sonarworks changes the phase relationship a bit too much to have a full accurate picture (pretty noticeable in the stereo image) while mixing. I like to toggle back and forth to get the best of both worlds.
Old 26th January 2019
  #400
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishmac View Post
Well, since you asked...
Yes, I do EQ my DT1990 (in my case with Toneboosters Morphit, 50% wet), which tames the 10K area a bit.
After reading lots of threads and comments, I guess it's normal to EQ your headphones. I have to get used to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishmac View Post
- one mans "sibilant" is another mans "detailed"
I agree. I tried to "get used" to the 1990 for a week, but for me it's not about "learning" them. They simply sound unpleasant on most recordings, I've tried. I was hoping to find some middle ground headphones frequency-wise.

I still find it strange why you would design headphones to deviate so much from the target frequency response established by Harman/Sean Olive and others. I know the target response discussion is still new and measurments are still in its youth, but it matches what I hear and it's all we got, so...

Look at the frequency area we are discussing here on a raw FR measurement. As the target response (in stipulated orange) recommends a downward slope starting at approx. 3 kHz, the 1990's goes in the opposite direction, UP, and peaks with a difference of 5-10 dB! No wonder we want to EQ that.


Last edited by Henrik Hjortnaes; 26th January 2019 at 02:58 PM..
Old 26th January 2019
  #401
Gear Addict
 

Did they design it for mixing? Maybe Beyer focus on a tracking use?
Old 26th January 2019
  #402
It's an open-back hp. It's definitely not for tracking.
And how is sibilance and dependency of EQ related to tracking?
Old 26th January 2019
  #403
Gear Maniac
 

I'm not sure if the charts are the same, but I came across a graph for the Grado SR125i.



I have Grado GR10e in-ears, and they're supposed to have the Grado "family sound".

I noticed that when I plug them into my Little Labs Monotor I can hear a lot of hissing / background noise even when the volume knob is fully down. Do you think it's the peak at 10KHz which is causing that? The bass drop-off also looks pretty desperate!
Old 26th January 2019
  #404
@deejayen, apart from the whole headphone-measurement-"scene" being non-standardized and in its infancy still, it is important to know after all, if a measurement is raw or compensated for. The one you display is unknown. The ones displayed by Sonarworks are secretly compensated for, which is annoying as hell. The one I showed above is raw.
Old 26th January 2019
  #405
Grado SR125i

Grado SR125i

Quote:
Originally Posted by deejayen View Post
I noticed that when I plug them into my Little Labs Monotor I can hear a lot of hissing / background noise even when the volume knob is fully down.
I would love to hear Jonathan Little @littlelabs commenting on that.
Old 26th January 2019
  #406
Gear Addict
 
whippoorwill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deejayen View Post
I noticed that when I plug them into my Little Labs Monotor I can hear a lot of hissing / background noise even when the volume knob is fully down. Do you think it's the peak at 10KHz which is causing that? The bass drop-off also looks pretty desperate!
what is the monotor connected to?
Old 26th January 2019
  #407
Gear Maniac
 

Thanks, Henrik. I got the graph from the diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com site, and there's quite a lot of information about how they measure the headphones, along with notes on smoothing and compensation. I'll need to read everything, and see if I can understand it! They've measured and reviewed the DT1990, so you may find that interesting.

My Monotor is being fed from the output of a Prism Lyra 2 (12" balanced cables).
Old 26th January 2019
  #408
Gear Addict
 
whippoorwill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deejayen View Post
Thanks, Henrik. I got the graph from the diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com site, and there's quite a lot of information about how they measure the headphones, along with notes on smoothing and compensation. I'll need to read everything, and see if I can understand it! They've measured and reviewed the DT1990, so you may find that interesting.

My Monotor is being fed from the output of a Prism Lyra 2 (12" balanced cables).
Try changing the Lyra outputs to -10 instead of +4.
This should really lessen the hiss, even when volume is compensated for.
Please report back.
Old 26th January 2019
  #409
Gear Guru
E Grados are amazing! I have Sonarworks for my Ath 50’s but it is a cpu hog so sort of defeats the purpose and I’ve learned the phones so don’t really need it. E Grados have the 60 drivers and are surprisingly comfortable and really robust......
Old 27th January 2019
  #410
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by whippoorwill View Post
Try changing the Lyra outputs to -10 instead of +4.
This should really lessen the hiss, even when volume is compensated for.
Please report back.
Thanks, Whippoorwill.

I checked, but I already had AO1 & AO2 in the Lyra Control Panel set to -10dBu.

There's no noise with Sennheiser HD600 headphones, which I believe Little Labs recommend, and probably designed the Monotor around. However, with the Grado GR10e earphones, there's quite a lot of hiss even when the volume on the Monotor is turned down, and it increases a bit as the volume is turned up to maximum. I also noticed a slight hum along with the hiss, and the hum increases when I touch the case of the Monotor. There's no hum with the HD600. I thought that maybe the hiss was due to the extended treble response of the Grado GR10e, but I'm wondering if it might be (also?) due to their lower impedance (32 Ohms against 300 Ohms of the HD600).
Old 27th January 2019
  #411
Quote:
Originally Posted by deejayen View Post
...but I'm wondering if it might be (also?) due to their lower impedance (32 Ohms against 300 Ohms of the HD600).
If I recall correctly, the Monotor headphone output impedance is 0.5 Ohm, so the cause of the hiss shouldn't be impedance mismatch. I'm no expert, though.
Old 5th February 2019
  #412
Gear Maniac
 

I checked with Jonathan, and the hiss is due to the sensitivity of the Grado GR10e and Ultimate Ears Reference Monitors. I don't understand the electronics, but apparently the amp is fairly high gain, and the volume knob is before the amp, so I'm hearing all the noise of the amp with these earphones Apparently, some headphones aren't a good match for this amp - typically, I have two such headphones! It's disappointing, as the hiss is distracting, even when playing some music, especially with the Ultimate Ears. It'll also make me wary of buying other headphones in case I run into the same problem with those.
Old 8th February 2019
  #413
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henrik Hjortnaes View Post
I would love to hear if people here all use EQ with their headphones. Do you?
And if so, why do you accept it?
I usually do so with closed-back phones, because they are pretty much never flat. The only pair of closed-back phones I've heard where I would not feel the need for EQ is the AKG K872 and they are very very pricey.

I don't think EQ should be needed with high-quality open-back phones. I have Audeze LCD, Shure SRH1840 etc and those don't really need or benefit IMO.
Old 8th February 2019
  #414
Lives for gear
 
aleatoric's Avatar
Has anyone modded their HD 650's?

This modification looks interesting and easy enough with some measurements to back it up:

HD650 KISS mod | Super Best Audio Friends
Old 11th February 2019
  #415
Here for the gear
 
art felton's Avatar
 

Unfortunately headphones are pretty useless when it comes to making critical decisions in mixing and mastering. They are great for hearing clicks and pops, but apart from that I do not use headphones any longer. I tried mixing tracks on highly regarded headphones when on holiday, but was surprised how little information they offer to make critical judgments. I honesty cannot recommend any headphone for Mixing or Mastering.
Old 11th February 2019
  #416
Lives for gear
 
b0se's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by art felton View Post
Unfortunately headphones are pretty useless when it comes to making critical decisions in mixing and mastering. They are great for hearing clicks and pops, but apart from that I do not use headphones any longer. I tried mixing tracks on highly regarded headphones when on holiday, but was surprised how little information they offer to make critical judgments. I honesty cannot recommend any headphone for Mixing or Mastering.
That comment is about as useful as fire extinguisher containing gasoline :¬)

1) You didn't mention which pair you tried.

2) Stating you can't recommend *any* would mean you'd have had to test not just every single pair, but each pair with each possible mod, and each permutation with every bit of corrective software. Impossible.

3) If you know the tool well enough you could mix or master with *optimised* headphones.
Old 11th February 2019
  #417
Here for the gear
 
art felton's Avatar
 

I do not believe in Mastering with headphones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by b0se View Post
That comment is about as useful as fire extinguisher containing gasoline :¬)

1) You didn't mention which pair you tried.

2) Stating you can't recommend *any* would mean you'd have had to test not just every single pair, but each pair with each possible mod, and each permutation with every bit of corrective software. Impossible.

3) If you know the tool well enough you could mix or master with *optimised* headphones.
It took me twenty years to accept fully that headphones are an additional reference at best. I like Sennheizer HD 800, Beyerdynamic DT 880 600 Ohms, UltraSone HFI-650 and others, but I do not believe in Mastering with headphones. So why should I recommend any, especially when there have been so many worthy recommendations. Mastering on headphones is a myth as far as I am concerned. Subsonic energy you sense with your skin and body and not with your ears for starters. This alone is a good argument not to recommend any headphones for mastering.

Last edited by art felton; 11th February 2019 at 08:13 PM.. Reason: It is not just skin. It is skin and body.
Old 11th February 2019
  #418
Lives for gear
 
b0se's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by art felton View Post
It took me twenty years to accept fully that headphones are an additional reference at best. I like Sennheizer HD 800, Beyerdynamic DT 880 600 Ohms, UltraSone HFI-650 and others, but I do not believe in Mastering with headphones. So why should I recommend any, especially when there have been so many worthy recommendations. Mastering on headphones is a myth as far as I am concerned. Subsonic energy you sense with your skin and not with your ears for starters. This alone is a good argument not to recommend any headphones for mastering.
Indeed, they should be supplementary. The DT880 and HD800 are way off in terms of a flat frequency (used both, own the latter). Focal Clears via Sonarworks are leagues above them. Thermos (active in this thread) mentioned how well this combination performed for mastering if I recall correctly.

While cans are not perfect, neither are rooms and monitors. People still mix/master in less than optimal rooms with average monitors and manage.

I've mixed with Clears late at night and found that the work stood up very well against the Kii Three's the next morning. Not perfect, but over time the differences could be compensated for.
Old 11th February 2019
  #419
Lives for gear
 
thermos's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by art felton View Post
It took me twenty years to accept fully that headphones are an additional reference at best. I like Sennheizer HD 800, Beyerdynamic DT 880 600 Ohms, UltraSone HFI-650 and others, but I do not believe in Mastering with headphones. So why should I recommend any, especially when there have been so many worthy recommendations. Mastering on headphones is a myth as far as I am concerned. Subsonic energy you sense with your skin and not with your ears for starters. This alone is a good argument not to recommend any headphones for mastering.
I’ll just leave this here.
Glenn Schick Mastering
Old 11th February 2019
  #420
Here for the gear
 
art felton's Avatar
 

Marketing is good business

Quote:
Originally Posted by thermos View Post
I’ll just leave this here.
Glenn Schick Mastering
Thank you for that. I hope you agree with me that marketing is good business.
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump