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What are your favorite headphones in the mastering room. Studio Headphones
Old 15th January 2019
  #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henrik Hjortnaes View Post
I just ordered the DT 1990 Pro to see if they can become my favorite headphones in my mixing room
Not heard the 1990s, looking forward to your thoughts. Due to @bcgood 's comments I have the ATH-R70s coming tomorrow to compare to the Clears. I'll burn them in for 24 hours first then report back.
Old 15th January 2019
  #332
Quote:
Originally Posted by b0se View Post
Not heard the 1990s, looking forward to your thoughts.
I'm fearing bright, but we shall see.

Quote:
Due to @bcgood 's comments I have the ATH-R70s coming tomorrow to compare to the Clears. I'll burn them in for 24 hours first then report back.
They've been on my list forever. Still are. Looking very much forward to your comparison. They are priced insanely different, holy moly.
Old 15th January 2019
  #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henrik Hjortnaes View Post
I'm fearing bright, but we shall see.

They've been on my list forever. Still are. Looking very much forward to your comparison. They are priced insanely different, holy moly.
I have some HD800 to sell for that reason!

Yes just a bit. We'll see :¬)

The Clears take EQ very well (much better than the HD800), so these R70's will have to be exceptional.
Old 15th January 2019
  #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b0se View Post
I have some HD800 to sell for that reason!

Yes just a bit. We'll see :¬)

The Clears take EQ very well (much better than the HD800), so these R70's will have to be exceptional.
Keep us posted! I overlooked the R70s for some reason, but luckily couldn't be more happy with the Clears.
Old 15th January 2019
  #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thermos View Post
Keep us posted! I overlooked the R70s for some reason, but luckily couldn't be more happy with the Clears.
Delighted with the Clears also. The 24 burn in period will be a tough wait :¬)
Old 15th January 2019
  #336
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Just compared DT 770 80 ohms vs 650 HD with both Sonarworks activated. Gosh 650 HD wins hands down! much more presence and clarity
Old 15th January 2019
  #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kirito View Post
Just compared DT 770 80 ohms vs 650 HD with both Sonarworks activated. Gosh 650 HD wins hands down! much more presence and clarity
The 770 is predominantly a tracking (read: easy on the ear) and sound isolating headphone. You'd be nuts to use that for mixing.

I own/use them for tracking myself.
Old 15th January 2019
  #338
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yes it's very good for tracking indeed !

I was just curious how it could compete vs 650
Old 15th January 2019
  #339
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Does anybody have tried the ATH-R70 with sonarworks vs. the hd650?

They have a pretty nice review online Studio headphone review: Audio-Technica ATH-R70x – Sonarworks but the result is that they prefere the hd650 a tiny bit.
Old 15th January 2019
  #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJHollins View Post
You seem confused as to the 'benefit of burning in speakers and headphones.'

after playing a sound source, anywhere from 15 min to 24+hours, the speaker performs to factory spec.
.
I am not at all confused. I am skeptical.
The idea that the speaker leaves the factory NOT performing within factory spec would be an indication of very poor quality control at the factory.
The further thought that you can then do something at home to make the speaker perform at factory spec is a misapplication of the term.

Maybe you can understand what Ardis has written.
Old 16th January 2019
  #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AreYouHuman View Post
Does anybody have tried the ATH-R70 with sonarworks vs. the hd650?

They have a pretty nice review online Studio headphone review: Audio-Technica ATH-R70x – Sonarworks but the result is that they prefere the hd650 a tiny bit.
I have HD600 (and had the HD650), both eclipsed by the HD800 (+EQ). The Clears are levels above the HD800.

I'll have the R70's tomorrow so will let you know how they compare.
Old 16th January 2019
  #342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
I am not at all confused. I am skeptical.
Well ... do your own testing when you get new monitors or headphones.
Old 16th January 2019
  #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJHollins View Post
Well ... do your own testing when you get new monitors or headphones.
I’m not making any claims that I should have to prove. The discussion indicates that valid testing would be at least difficult, and perhaps expensive.
I only asked if there was any objective evidence for a claim that is often made on audio forums. So far, the answer is no.
And that should be OK.
Burning in transducers is not a particularly wasteful habit, so it does very little harm whether it does any proveable good or not.
Old 16th January 2019
  #344
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whippoorwill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by b0se View Post
I have HD600 (and had the HD650), both eclipsed by the HD800 (+EQ). The Clears are levels above the HD800.

I'll have the R70's tomorrow so will let you know how they compare.
Could you go deeper in your comparison of the HD800 and the Clears?
Are you using eq with the clears?
I feel like a HD800 pair would be a nice counterpoint and may consider selling some headphones I own
Old 16th January 2019
  #345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
I’m not making any claims that I should have to prove. The discussion indicates that valid testing would be at least difficult, and perhaps expensive.
I only asked if there was any objective evidence for a claim that is often made on audio forums. So far, the answer is no.
And that should be OK.
Burning in transducers is not a particularly wasteful habit, so it does very little harm whether it does any proveable good or not.
Yeah, well when I buy a new set of Phones or monitors ... or in the past, having studio monitors Re-Coned ... the idea of scientifically PROVING that they require a burn-in period is not really my personal objective.

My initial goal is to get them running up to spec ... or better put .... stable.

If I may suggest ... I think you may be mis-understanding the term 'Burn-In'. It is not like a race car driver 'burning' his tires before a race.

It's simply playing Music ... or PINK Noise at a moderate level for some 15 minutes .... or possibly some Hours [maybe even for a Day].

This is BEFORE making critical decisions [like Mixing or Mastering].

You can still listen to them ... your Audio of choice ... during that period. In fact, that is the way to determine if you are hearing any change in overall response, or stage imaging.

That is what I've done, and how this observation was made. We listened.

It really is not that complicated.
Old 16th January 2019
  #346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whippoorwill View Post
Could you go deeper in your comparison of the HD800 and the Clears?
Are you using eq with the clears?
I feel like a HD800 pair would be a nice counterpoint and may consider selling some headphones I own
Sure.

The HD-800 are bright. Bright bright. The lows are low too Almost as if there is a tilt EQ over them. When you EQ them they do offer a much better balance, but a bit of the top end sparkle is gone and the lows—while beefier—become bloated and undefined. Hello, bass bleed.

The soundstage is incredible—high and wide—but almost too incredible. Artificial, perhaps. Nothing like listening through speakers, you're categorically having a headphone experience. Can opener helps (especially paired with MidSide) but it's an uphill battle and not optimal for SQ.

The clears on the other hand are far more balanced. The soundstage is smaller but it feels natural. Being a fan of an expansive soundstage, I was worried before hearing them. Not anymore. The space within the soundstage is more spacious, there's more 'air' (dark matter?) and elements have nicely defined edges/placements. I actually love the sound of the can without EQ,and find myself using it that way more often than not (for mixing).

There is a dip in the 2K-5K range, so voices and whatnot are slightly recessed. The Sonarworks 'fix' curve is 5.5dB at the peak, which is absurd (for my pair anyway). I found that when getting a vocal 'perfect' via the cans, when switching to the Kii's I would have to dial it back maybe 1-2dB max. I'm already used to that nuance so can happily work around it.

I've had super high end cans before (Abyss etc) and while you can eek out a bit more, it's not really worth it imo. The Clears are in a price/performance sweet spot.

You'll need a good amp though. I use a Violectric V281, a German made beast of neutral sounding engineering. Makes any can you attach it it shine. I was shocked, actually.

Hope that helps!

P.S. if I were mastering, I would send them off to Sonarworks for individual calibration. I still may do that anyway, next time I'm travelling.
Old 16th January 2019
  #347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJHollins View Post
That is what I've done, and how this observation was made. We listened.

It really is not that complicated.
True, it isn’t complicated.
You are describing an AB listening test for subtle changes in performance. Nothing wrong with that general idea.
But you are listening to “B” hours or days after listening to “A”. The time lag completely invalidates the test.
It has been repeatedly demonstrated that human memory in comparisons of subtle audio changes is unreliable after just a few seconds. Valid AB audio tests for subtle changes require close to instantaneous switching.

I am not questioning anyone’s hearing or judgement. For analogy, the very best marksman in the world will not hit the target very often if the room is pitch black. That isn’t a reflection on the marksman’s skills.
Old 16th January 2019
  #348
Gear Guru
There is another thread on here where (I believe the guy that makes Amphions?), talks about how they build in calculations to how burn in will affect their speakers, and have manufactured accordingly, so the speakers will settle in to where they want them to be, (with use). So this isn't pie in the sky thinking. Simple physics, and again a personal choice as to whether it matters.....
Old 16th January 2019
  #349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
True, it isn’t complicated.
You are describing an AB listening test for subtle changes in performance. Nothing wrong with that general idea.
But you are listening to “B” hours or days after listening to “A”. The time lag completely invalidates the test.
It has been repeatedly demonstrated that human memory in comparisons of subtle audio changes is unreliable after just a few seconds. Valid AB audio tests for subtle changes require close to instantaneous switching.

I am not questioning anyone’s hearing or judgement. For analogy, the very best marksman in the world will not hit the target very often if the room is pitch black. That isn’t a reflection on the marksman’s skills.
What you're describing is typical A/B comparisons of making EQ or Compression changes [fast].

There is another 'Listening' technique called 'First Impressions'.

That key is to get as many 'first times' possible.
Old 16th January 2019
  #350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJHollins View Post
What you're describing is typical A/B comparisons of making EQ or Compression changes [fast].
There is another 'Listening' technique called 'First Impressions'.
That key is to get as many 'first times' possible.
Once you burn in the headphones, you can never go back to the “unburned” condition for any additional ‘first times” at all.
Repeated listenings to the burned in phones don’t tell you anything new (or at all) about the “unburned” phones. You would be getting new “first impressions” of a condition (burned in) that you obviously are inclined to believe is better. Maybe it is better. But your new method doesn’t provide any evidence either way.
Old 16th January 2019
  #351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
Once you burn in the headphones, you can never go back to the “unburned” condition for any additional ‘first times” at all.
Repeated listenings to the burned in phones don’t tell you anything new (or at all) about the “unburned” phones. You would be getting new “first impressions” of a condition (burned in) that you obviously are inclined to believe is better. Maybe it is better. But your new method doesn’t provide any evidence either way.
What you just said is obvious, and is not what I described.

Now I read you continually finding a path to support a position you hold. If you now feel justified in your 'position' by mis-statements and deliberately describing an obvious incorrect method of what I stated ... it is apparent that you have some personal addenda in this regard, for which I have no time for.
Old 16th January 2019
  #352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJHollins View Post
What you just said is obvious, and is not what I described.

Now I read you continually finding a path to support a position you hold. If you now feel justified in your 'position' by mis-statements and deliberately describing an obvious incorrect method of what I stated ... it is apparent that you have some personal addenda in this regard, for which I have no time for.
You did not describe anything in detail. You referred to something. I searched for “first impressions” but nothing regarding audio came up. If you don’t want to be misunderstood, you need to provide more information.
Also, I think you meant “agenda” when you wrote “addenda”. If you are trying for a mic drop putdown, it is more effective if it makes some kind of sense.
I genuinely don’t understand why asking if there is objective evidence for a seemingly widely held audio belief flips some people out. I feel like an agnostic stuck in a religious war.
Old 16th January 2019
  #353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
You did not describe anything in detail. You referred to something. I searched for “first impressions” but nothing regarding audio came up. If you don’t want to be misunderstood, you need to provide more information.
Also, I think you meant “agenda” when you wrote “addenda”. If you are trying for a mic drop putdown, it is more effective if it makes some kind of sense.
I genuinely don’t understand why asking if there is objective evidence for a seemingly widely held audio belief flips some people out. I feel like an agnostic stuck in a religious war.
apologies for the mis-spelling.

I cannot think of any other information to provide to get you UN-stuck.

If you find something, maybe some others would be interested. I'm not really concerned ... just deal with it when needed, and move on.
Old 16th January 2019
  #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b0se View Post
Sure.

The HD-800 are bright. Bright bright. The lows are low too Almost as if there is a tilt EQ over them. When you EQ them they do offer a much better balance, but a bit of the top end sparkle is gone and the lows—while beefier—become bloated and undefined. Hello, bass bleed.

The soundstage is incredible—high and wide—but almost too incredible. Artificial, perhaps. Nothing like listening through speakers, you're categorically having a headphone experience. Can opener helps (especially paired with MidSide) but it's an uphill battle and not optimal for SQ.

The clears on the other hand are far more balanced. The soundstage is smaller but it feels natural. Being a fan of an expansive soundstage, I was worried before hearing them. Not anymore. The space within the soundstage is more spacious, there's more 'air' (dark matter?) and elements have nicely defined edges/placements. I actually love the sound of the can without EQ,and find myself using it that way more often than not (for mixing).

There is a dip in the 2K-5K range, so voices and whatnot are slightly recessed. The Sonarworks 'fix' curve is 5.5dB at the peak, which is absurd (for my pair anyway). I found that when getting a vocal 'perfect' via the cans, when switching to the Kii's I would have to dial it back maybe 1-2dB max. I'm already used to that nuance so can happily work around it.

I've had super high end cans before (Abyss etc) and while you can eek out a bit more, it's not really worth it imo. The Clears are in a price/performance sweet spot.

You'll need a good amp though. I use a Violectric V281, a German made beast of neutral sounding engineering. Makes any can you attach it it shine. I was shocked, actually.

Hope that helps!

P.S. if I were mastering, I would send them off to Sonarworks for individual calibration. I still may do that anyway, next time I'm travelling.

Oh man , I was seriously thinking the Clears might be a headphone I could mix on , however the dip you're describing in the 2k-5k range would be a show stopper for me. And then to have to compensate ? ... No way. Mixing is challenging enough.

Sold my hd800, sold my LCD-X ... Is there not one headphone made that is just correct for mixing ? Just plugin and go ?
Old 16th January 2019
  #355
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thermos's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by stealthbalance View Post
Oh man , I was seriously thinking the Clears might be a headphone I could mix on , however the dip you're describing in the 2k-5k range would be a show stopper for me. And then to have to compensate ? ... No way. Mixing is challenging enough.

Sold my hd800, sold my LCD-X ... Is there not one headphone made that is just correct for mixing ? Just plugin and go ?
Nope, there isn't one. But thats why god created eq correction. I just mixed an entire ep on just the clears, pulled it up on speakers and it sounded identical. Didn't change Vox levels, nothing. Wouldn't have been possible without sonar works and can opener though.

The clears are the closest to flat that I've heard aside from the hd-600/650, but are way more resolving than those. So just a bit of eq correction and you are good to go.
Old 16th January 2019
  #356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stealthbalance View Post
Oh man , I was seriously thinking the Clears might be a headphone I could mix on , however the dip you're describing in the 2k-5k range would be a show stopper for me. And then to have to compensate ? ... No way. Mixing is challenging enough.

Sold my hd800, sold my LCD-X ... Is there not one headphone made that is just correct for mixing ? Just plugin and go ?
As thermos says the SW EQ correction (linear filter) sounds great. It's an average curve though, for pro use they need to be individually calibrated.

The Clears take well to the EQ FWIW.
Old 16th January 2019
  #357
adl
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Got the Beyerdynamic DT 1990 Pro today (second hand) and wow, those really show whats wrong (well, or right) with your mix!
Coming from Shure SH840 headphones (which aren´t for Mastering at all!) the Beyerdynamic really are an astonishing improvement. I was mostly looking for something which helps me with better mixing but the Beyerdynamic seem great for Mixing AND Mastering to me.
I use Sonarworks Reference (Studio, Headphones and Systemwide) and it helps a lot getting the DT1990 Pro more linear.
Old 16th January 2019
  #358
Quote:
Originally Posted by adl View Post
Got the Beyerdynamic DT 1990 Pro today (second hand) and wow, those really show whats wrong (well, or right) with your mix!
I use Sonarworks Reference (Studio, Headphones and Systemwide) and it helps a lot getting the DT1990 Pro more linear.
Man, I wish I could have had the 1990 second hand. I just ordered new ones. I envy you your location. Don't tell me what you paid, I'll probably die!

Do you really prefer them using Sonarworks - even at 100%?
Old 16th January 2019
  #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thermos View Post
Nope, there isn't one. But thats why god created eq correction. I just mixed an entire ep on just the clears, pulled it up on speakers and it sounded identical. Didn't change Vox levels, nothing. Wouldn't have been possible without sonar works and can opener though.

The clears are the closest to flat that I've heard aside from the hd-600/650, but are way more resolving than those. So just a bit of eq correction and you are good to go.

Ok great, thanks thermos and b0se for the very helpful advice ! I need to really find out about sonar works and can opener, and figure out what the Clears and those 2 add ons plus a decent amp will cost.
Any sonic difference between the Focal Clear and the Clear Pro ?

b0se, weren’t you about to give a set of Audio Technica phones a whirl ? Looking forward to your findings.

I'd really like an easy & awesome portable pro tools hd mix rig soon. Along with 3 more headphones for clients to hang and listen.
For that high end hotel suite overlooking the ocean experience :-)
Old 16th January 2019
  #360
adl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henrik Hjortnaes View Post
Man, I wish I could have had the 1990 second hand. I just ordered new ones. I envy you your location. Don't tell me what you paid, I'll probably die!

Do you really prefer them using Sonarworks - even at 100%?
They have become actually somewhat cheap if you order em directly at beyerdynamic (somewhat around 429€ i think).

I got em for 360€, so not even THAT much cheaper

I will see how mixes translate, but now (after my first mix) i am pretty satisfied. I used Sonarworks with 100% wet and the "Beyerdynamic analytical earpads" preset, as those are the pads i use.
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