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New Mastering speakers in 2018
Old 24th August 2018
  #91
Anyone knows EgglestonWorks Andra mk1 ?
Old 24th August 2018
  #92
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I.R.Baboon's Avatar
Problem with these DSP controlled speakers (like Kii & Grimm) is latency. So if you plan to also use them for production, be aware you'll be adding some milliseconds of latency into your monitoring chain!

I believe they also have low-latency modes, but then you don't get all the advantages of the DSP. Perhaps not a big deal if it's easy to switch modes (so, when latency is critical like playing VSTi's, put it in low latency mode).
Old 24th August 2018
  #93
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puriteaudio's Avatar
 

In the case of the Kiis, you only ‘lose’ the phase coherence in low latency ( 1ms ) mode.
Keith
Old 24th August 2018
  #94
Gear Head
 

Kii have 1ms in low latency mode and 90 in high mode if remember correctly. But its not a problem in mastering when all gear is switched, so you click and then hear change, can be nice. On Kii you have remote where you can save presets, different for mixing, producing or mastering which is nice. I think DSP is not a problem, its just another trick like with port or passive radiator in the past. A lot crossovers are now digital (dsp). At the end we choose what sound best for us and most important how they translate which is most important. I used to use ns10 which I loved not for sound but how they show all faults. Now we have have much more choices where we can find the speakers which sound good and translate. Of course now is a lot of companies who build monitors to price point and we pay half or more just for marketing.
Old 25th August 2018
  #95
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Benj's Avatar
Does anyone know how much latency there is on the Dutch and Dutch 8c or if they have a similar low latency mode? I read the manual but there wasn't any information on latency.
Old 25th August 2018
  #96
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puriteaudio's Avatar
 

Extremely low, I have the figure somewhere, but equivalent to the Kiis in ‘low latency’ mode.
The 8Cs create their cardioid response physically via their enclosure .
Keith
Old 25th August 2018
  #97
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MIKEHARRIS's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DownSideUp View Post
Anyone knows EgglestonWorks Andra mk1 ?
I heard the first Andra @20 years ago and was impressed. I was told it was quality drivers..simple 6db crossovers & proper physical alignment...seemingly the polar opposite of the D&D 8C and the Kiis. The demos I heard were masters of what is considered some of the best classical recordings...Schoeps Sphere to Nagra digital. I had never heard the soundstage so detailed and effortless. Obviously it was only a matter of time till they made their way into mastering. Maybe if you don't have a good sized well treated room you need speakers with tricks to make them sound good.
I'm sure I'll get roasted for not drinking the koolaid and not swooning over the next big thing.
Old 25th August 2018
  #98
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIKEHARRIS View Post
I heard the first Andra @20 years ago and was impressed. I was told it was quality drivers..simple 6db crossovers & proper physical alignment...seemingly the polar opposite of the D&D 8C and the Kiis. The demos I heard were masters of what is considered some of the best classical recordings...Schoeps Sphere to Nagra digital. I had never heard the soundstage so detailed and effortless. Obviously it was only a matter of time till they made their way into mastering. Maybe if you don't have a good sized well treated room you need speakers with tricks to make them sound good.
I'm sure I'll get roasted for not drinking the koolaid and not swooning over the next big thing.
Thanks a lot! My room is small but measures pretty good. SCM150 do ok, but I'd rather have smaller, and...cheaper! I need the mother spread elsewhere.

Andra could be nice, I love quality drivers and simple designs. I hope they are still supported by Eggelstonworks.
Old 26th August 2018
  #99
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MichaelStAmour's Avatar
As a not so expensive solution.

I went with the Sonodyne SM300 and may upgrade to the Sonodyne SM3200. I heard them against the Kii Three and, for the price differences, I was not disappointed with the Sonodyne monitors. Really articulate Midrange, the Low frequency are just great, and the top end was present while not agressive.

Not in the same price range, but I think it's worth looking.
Old 26th August 2018
  #100
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I.R.Baboon's Avatar
Someone mentioned 90ms of latency for the Kii's. For my tastes, that's quite high, even in a mix / mastering context (and totally unusable for production). Perhaps there's also a "mid" latency mode??!!

Having said that, these fancy DSP speakers have a clarity and coherence that's simply impossible to achieve with passive designs.

I might be interested in a "big" speaker from Kii or Grimm or whoever, because i miss the SPLs that some other passives can put out.

Although i tested the Grimms a while ago and one of the reasons i didn't buy it was it was actually too revealing. I mean, it revealed crappy aspects of a mix that one can do nothing about in mastering, so would actually have made my job harder with attended sessions!
Old 27th August 2018
  #101
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b0se's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmanic View Post
Would be intersting to find a scientific study of why this really is the case. This is my experience as well.. no matter how high-end the headphones are (and the audio path itself to the headphones) it's a completely different system compared to speakers.

These are the negatives of headphones as far as my experience goes.. in order of importance:

1) Dynamics are much harder to hear. On headphones I really struggle sometimes to hear small amounts of dynamics changes, be it compression, volume automation, transient processing or whatever. Whereas on speakers I can hear very small amounts of change.

2) Sharp EQ cuts (or in mixing, boosts) are much harder to pinpoint and hear the amount of gain to be applied. On speakers I can hear down to about 0.25dB of cut/boost but on headphones this amount, with a sharp Q, can be truly straining to hear.

3) Panning/stereo decisions are really difficult to deal with without some help. Luckily plugins like Goodhertz CanOpener can help with the crossfeed and make this a lot easier to judge. Still, even with helpers it's much more difficult than on speakers.

4) I have to concentrate a lot more.. mentally prepare myself and tell myself "you need to really listen to the details now" if I work with headphones. Whereas with speakers I can be much more relaxed and still hear really detailed stuff.

The only thing I seem to hear easier on headphones is harmonic distortion and the detail it does to the overall tonality of a mix/master. On speakers I hear better what happens to the transients and how the dynamics are affected but on headphones I can pinpoint the "flavor" easier.. which I find odd and can't quite explain. It is possible that it's due to conditioning. I've done a ton of critical listening with headphones, mainly for distortion and artifacts.. so it's possible my brain goes automatically in this mode when I have headphones on.

Anyhow, if anybody has an interesting link to a real study on this I'd be super happy to read it.

Cheers!
bM
You've pretty much elucidated my own preferences on the subject, although I'd place 4 at the top as it affects the entire process.

I had a serious (and synergistic) headphone chain; Lumin A1 > Simaudio Moon 600i (speaker amp) > custom silver cable direct to AB-1266. I was in audio heaven for some time, then the Kii's came along. Also had the SPL Phonitor 2 (great adjustable HW crossover) with CanOpener for other headphones.

Although the audio is reproduced from the same source, great monitors create a very large, open soundstage in which you hear. Headphones attempt to do this in a comparatively minuscule space (ear for headphones, ear canal for IEMs). Does the physical size of the stage affect aural resolution and placement perception?

No idea, but as you say, an interesting subject.
Old 3rd September 2018
  #102
Anyone familiar with the Quested HQ210? i wonder if they are really close to ATCs.
Old 3rd September 2018
  #103
The Pmc 1b1s aiii are the most detailed in depth and accurate monitors I have ever heard. They also have great bass response. Adding their sub and you get some serious low end.

The Dutch 8s I never heard but I'm sure they are great. Are they a 2 way monitor?
Old 3rd September 2018
  #104
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puriteaudio's Avatar
 

3x8” plus tweeter.
Keith
Old 3rd September 2018
  #105
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octatonic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by I.R.Baboon View Post
Problem with these DSP controlled speakers (like Kii & Grimm) is latency. So if you plan to also use them for production, be aware you'll be adding some milliseconds of latency into your monitoring chain!

I believe they also have low-latency modes, but then you don't get all the advantages of the DSP. Perhaps not a big deal if it's easy to switch modes (so, when latency is critical like playing VSTi's, put it in low latency mode).
It simply isn't a problem for me with the Kii's.
When tracking or overdubbing I use low latency mode, when mixing I use the full DSP mode.
It takes no time at all to switch.
Old 3rd September 2018
  #106
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Earcatcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Bucci View Post
The Dutch 8c's I never heard but I'm sure they are great. Are they a 2 way monitor?
The back half of each 8c is a subwoofer with two drivers. The front half of the 8c exists out of a mid driver and a tweeter. The mid driver has the cardioid dispersion trick applied mechanically with side vents. The tweeter has a carefully designed waveguide in order to match that pattern in the higher frequencies. DSP is used only for some mild correction to the already great basic sound of the speakers.
Old 4th September 2018
  #107
Quote:
Originally Posted by psykostx View Post
Still haven't heard anything better than, surprisingly, a Mark Levinson integrated tube amp (forgot the model number, but it's fairly inexpensive relatively speaking) into a pair of ProAc Response 3 towers I think they were (they were rather large, I could be wrong about the model). Old speakers, but with that amp they blew away systems based around Dunlavys, B&Ws, Linns, Wilsons, etc As far as surround sound, Paradigm, of all brands, made the best setup I've ever heard. Nothing new has touched that ProAc setup so far. Still looking though.
A friend of mine is putting new suspensions on a pair of Response 3, can't wait to hear that ! should be pretty cheap too.
Old 4th September 2018
  #108
Lives for gear
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Originally Posted by DownSideUp View Post
A friend of mine is putting new suspensions on a pair of Response 3, can't wait to hear that ! should be pretty cheap too.
Tell him to be sure to contact ProAc before he does. Customizing drivers is kind of their calling card. I know my ProAcs have a custom foam dust cap instead of the plastic that comes stock on the driver. I'm pretty sure they customize most if not all their drivers with their own parts. so you can't order replacement drivers from the driver manufacturer you have to order from ProAc. They can get away with it because their speakers do have that extra percentage of detail in every model I've heard. I know it sounds ridiculous to think that you'd need a specific suspension material but it's a good idea to check with ProAc to make sure they perform precisely as they're supposed to. "Precisely" is what ProAc is all about in my experience.
Old 4th September 2018
  #109
Quote:
Originally Posted by psykostx View Post
Tell him to be sure to contact ProAc before he does. Customizing drivers is kind of their calling card. I know my ProAcs have a custom foam dust cap instead of the plastic that comes stock on the driver. I'm pretty sure they customize most if not all their drivers with their own parts. so you can't order replacement drivers from the driver manufacturer you have to order from ProAc. They can get away with it because their speakers do have that extra percentage of detail in every model I've heard. I know it sounds ridiculous to think that you'd need a specific suspension material but it's a good idea to check with ProAc to make sure they perform precisely as they're supposed to. "Precisely" is what ProAc is all about in my experience.
Thanks a lot, it's not ridiculous at all to think of tracing/obtaining the original material. I thought the same and asked him, "did you buy from ProAc" and he said " oh actually yes yes!", ahah I should have just asked "where did you get the kit?"

Those stories about tannoy foam change and the stiffer sound...

Anyway I'm pretty dead serious about those details and would not buy an out of spec speaker for mastering, I'll investigate and ask him details when he has more time.
Old 5th September 2018
  #110
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmanic View Post
Would be intersting to find a scientific study of why this really is the case. This is my experience as well.. no matter how high-end the headphones are (and the audio path itself to the headphones) it's a completely different system compared to speakers.

These are the negatives of headphones as far as my experience goes.. in order of importance:

1) Dynamics are much harder to hear. On headphones I really struggle sometimes to hear small amounts of dynamics changes, be it compression, volume automation, transient processing or whatever. Whereas on speakers I can hear very small amounts of change.

2) Sharp EQ cuts (or in mixing, boosts) are much harder to pinpoint and hear the amount of gain to be applied. On speakers I can hear down to about 0.25dB of cut/boost but on headphones this amount, with a sharp Q, can be truly straining to hear.

3) Panning/stereo decisions are really difficult to deal with without some help. Luckily plugins like Goodhertz CanOpener can help with the crossfeed and make this a lot easier to judge. Still, even with helpers it's much more difficult than on speakers.

4) I have to concentrate a lot more.. mentally prepare myself and tell myself "you need to really listen to the details now" if I work with headphones. Whereas with speakers I can be much more relaxed and still hear really detailed stuff.

The only thing I seem to hear easier on headphones is harmonic distortion and the detail it does to the overall tonality of a mix/master. On speakers I hear better what happens to the transients and how the dynamics are affected but on headphones I can pinpoint the "flavor" easier.. which I find odd and can't quite explain. It is possible that it's due to conditioning. I've done a ton of critical listening with headphones, mainly for distortion and artifacts.. so it's possible my brain goes automatically in this mode when I have headphones on.

Anyhow, if anybody has an interesting link to a real study on this I'd be super happy to read it.

Cheers!
bM
I've always found headphones best at dealing with time based details such as reverb settings, or when dealing with details in very small increments of time, like listening for clicks due to sloppy edits. Also when dealing with low volume aspects of the sound, that are more easily masked by louder sounds through speakers - things like noise floor, background rustles and rumbles, the snares buzzing during the bass guitar take because the drummer left them engaged. Things that add up to general loss of detail by taking up space where the nuance of the musical performance should be. These areas are where headphones are the best choice. Even during a tracking session I'd prefer to use speakers if possible, and it's usually possible with everything except vocals, and sometimes even then with dynamic mics that have very good rejection characteristics - sometimes the slight bleed from the speakers actually acts as a harmonic exciter or ambience enhancer.
Old 5th September 2018
  #111
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Greg Reierson's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by psykostx View Post
Things that add up to general loss of detail by taking up space where the nuance of the musical performance should be.
One of the best descriptions of what over-compression does.

Sorry...tangent... Carry on.
Old 5th September 2018
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Reierson View Post
One of the best descriptions of what over-compression does.

Sorry...tangent... Carry on.
True, but with good headphones you can hear that extraneous stuff before compression and minimize it, which allows a greater degree of compression to be used - and not only still retaining the nuance, but also increasing its audibility and impact. Of course there's still a possibility of going too far, but that line gets pushed a bit further when you can remove the unwanted details that are almost inevitably captured early in the process. And often due to fatigue, distraction, time constraints, lack of broadband playback, or whatever else, these things then weren't dealt with before they became a permanent fixture (or semi-permanent to the skilled ME with the tools to match).

These kinds of inadvertently captured sounds are a lot like a stain on a piece of white clothing. If it's dealt with immediately, there's a good chance the clothes can be salvaged, but if let to set throughout exposure to other elements, you're left with fewer options, which depend on your taste in clothing. If scrubbing still leaves the blemish visible, you could cover the it with a patch, or cut a hole for a ripped look, or use it as an undergarment, and then there's always the option to be the proud owner of a brand new cleaning/polishing rag. Hey at least you have the memories and nostalgia from when it was wearable. I'm sure we all have lots of metaphorical "rags" in our music project folders.
Old 9th March 2019
  #113
Here for the gear
 

Is anyone still on here..?

I recently acquired a pair of bookshelf speakers I'd like to use for mastering or at least mixing - they aren't the big 3 discussed earlier but wondering if they would qualify? They are rated down to 41hz and upt to 30k. I was thinking of using headphones (open/closed) to compensate for sub freq work. Does this sound achievable?

Legacy audio Studio HD - Studio HD | Legacy Audio - Building the World's Finest Audio Systems

Thanks!
Old 12th December 2019
  #114
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JblKid95's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelStAmour View Post
As a not so expensive solution.

I went with the Sonodyne SM300 and may upgrade to the Sonodyne SM3200. I heard them against the Kii Three and, for the price differences, I was not disappointed with the Sonodyne monitors. Really articulate Midrange, the Low frequency are just great, and the top end was present while not agressive.

Not in the same price range, but I think it's worth looking.
Rear ported
Old 3 days ago
  #115
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loji's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Go_Getta View Post
Is anyone still on here..?

I recently acquired a pair of bookshelf speakers I'd like to use for mastering or at least mixing - they aren't the big 3 discussed earlier but wondering if they would qualify? They are rated down to 41hz and upt to 30k. I was thinking of using headphones (open/closed) to compensate for sub freq work. Does this sound achievable?

Legacy audio Studio HD - Studio HD | Legacy Audio - Building the World's Finest Audio Systems

Thanks!
I used the Legacy Focus SE Floorstanders in ym mastering room here in NYC ... I believe Herb Powers Jr. down in FL uses the same.

I haven't heard the studio HD's personally, but if they work in your room, and you control the room-modes (or add subs) you should have a very fine playback system and be able to do excellent work.
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