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listen to these files with EQ plugins in "bypass", your opinion please
Old 2nd November 2017
  #31
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JP__'s Avatar
 

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Personally I find the most interesting point here is how much even such a "subtle" processing (I mean most analog stuff has much more phase distortion happening down there and even converters add those) influenced our perception. And its very dependent on our personal monitoring how this things are perceived: on a nearfield setup you would maybe hear it like less highs, on a full range monitoring it may sound more like added lows, while on a more phase accurate one it sounds more like somewhat detached lows (which often sound like more lows and sometimes even like more clear lows, because of the detachment). So, a good possibilty to test the accuraty of your monitoring setup.
We have done those kind of test in the past and its always very interesting how different things sound on different speakers and for different people. Whats time smearing to one is just full lows to another...
Old 2nd November 2017
  #32
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the unik's Avatar
Agreed. That is why you need to trust your ears before anything else...WITH, of course, a good and accurate listening environment (ie monitoring + treated isolated room).

On a more personnal note, this very exemple reflects exactly what I don't like in today's plugins world. Don't want to go into that debate again, but let say that's no surprise to me there.
Old 2nd November 2017
  #33
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP__ View Post
I dont know which plug ins Wim used in his test. But the TDR Nova without any engaged bands nearly nulls (>90dB) with the files PLUG_1 and _2.
I have also test it with the VST Analyser where you can see the simple DC-filter we might hear in those files.
I tried to talk to Fabien about it in the past and have also ask if it could be made a switchable feature instead (as it always annoys me while testing Nova), but never got any reply.
That's because this feature always existed and is clearly mentioned in the manual. A feature.

Nova, by default, uses a small, intentional nonlinearity which in turn depends on DC filtering. You can turn it off by choosing a quality mode having a "-" suffix. Then it's perfectly linear.

Nova GE is the one for grown ups. The free one doesn't offer this option.

I doubt 1 and 2 was Nova. In 1 and 2, HF gets attenuated a lot, much like a naively "oversampling" plugin (unlike Nova). but who knows.

Last edited by FabienTDR; 2nd November 2017 at 04:19 PM..
Old 2nd November 2017
  #34
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I've never experienced this in Nova GE and it's in my every day mastering chain - well almost in Insane + / - mode.
Old 2nd November 2017
  #35
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inlinenl's Avatar
 

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okay to add more confusion

1 & 2 are NOVA GE
3 = Sonoris Mastering EQ

Plug_1 = precise mode
Plug_2 = insane mode

if this could be fixed in NOVA/GE it would be a much better tool imho,
and Fabian , where can I set the "-" suffix , I do not see this option available ..

so the analyze of JP was very good, I'm glad to know what's causing the behaviour ! pick your tools wisely ...
Old 2nd November 2017
  #36
Damn

Can you pls try the "-" modes instead, as the manual says that the default modes use a nonlinearity? It's intentional, quite useful while mixing/tracking (esp. simple monophonic instruments). Turn it off if you don't like.

This non linearity is there to support what the dynamics modules tends to damage too much in action (the harmonic interaction between bands). It's only on by in the "+" modes. Try "-" for a best comparison to any other EQ.

"-" modes are perfect clean. That's why there are there, for mastering


All this doesn't relate to Nyquist filters. You hear a saturation "feature".


Edit: The option can be found under the quality dropdown (where you set ECO/PRECISE/INSANE). Only the GE has this option. I asked for an analogue ref to make clear that any analogue tool also cuts DC and slightly saturates the LF region (much more than nova does). That's why its been added in Nova: It often offers a sonic advantage on simple sources.

Last edited by FabienTDR; 2nd November 2017 at 04:48 PM..
Old 2nd November 2017
  #37
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JP__'s Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by FabienTDR View Post
That's because this feature always existed and is clearly mentioned in the manual. A feature.

Nova, by default, uses a small, intentional nonlinearity which in turn depends on DC filtering. You can turn it off by choosing a quality mode having a "-" suffix. Then it's perfectly linear.

Nova GE is the one for grown ups. The free one doesn't offer this option.

I doubt 1 and 2 was Nova. In 1 and 2, HF gets attenuated a lot, much like a naively "oversampling" plugin (unlike Nova). but who knows.
As I said above, a feature not a bug But wtf really read manuals... :D
But in fact it was one of the reason I never bought the GE after testing the free version (as you do not offer another option to demo your stuff). So, adding this "nonlinearity" was a bad business move from my point of view and I still not really understand the why...

Last edited by JP__; 2nd November 2017 at 05:25 PM..
Old 2nd November 2017
  #38
Gear Maniac
Very interesting. I used the files to do my own test and got the same results. I then used the "-" mode and the low end was back along with a complete null.
Old 2nd November 2017
  #39
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP__ View Post
So, adding this "nonlinearity" was a bad business move from my point of view and I still not really understand the why...
Indeed. We liked this effect on certain sources, so we decided to indirectly use this as form of copy protection. Maybe not the best idea, as it obviously leads to misunderstandings. But now we have active sessions waiting for recall, so we don't touch it.

FYI, the mechanism is essentially a saturating DC killer. In some sense, the DC part doesn't get attenuated, it gets saturated to replace most of the lost "fullness" with low order harmonics.
Old 2nd November 2017
  #40
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inlinenl's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by FabienTDR View Post
Damn

Can you pls try the "-" modes instead, as the manual says that the default modes use a nonlinearity? It's intentional, quite useful while mixing/tracking (esp. simple monophonic instruments). Turn it off if you don't like.

This non linearity is there to support what the dynamics modules tends to damage too much in action (the harmonic interaction between bands). It's only on by in the "+" modes. Try "-" for a best comparison to any other EQ.

"-" modes are perfect clean. That's why there are there, for mastering


All this doesn't relate to Nyquist filters. You hear a saturation "feature".


Edit: The option can be found under the quality dropdown (where you set ECO/PRECISE/INSANE). Only the GE has this option. I asked for an analogue ref to make clear that any analogue tool also cuts DC and slightly saturates the LF region (much more than nova does). That's why its been added in Nova: It often offers a sonic advantage on simple sources.
thnx Fabian, glad I posted, but also feel I should apologize on my initial response ... way to busy to follow all updates etc. Updated to the latest version and now I have these extra "-" options which really make the difference .. thnx , now a new start with NOVA/GE ))
Old 2nd November 2017
  #41
No worries, I think it's a perfectly valid concern. As said above, the placement of this "feature" wasn't exactly our wisest choice. But I assumed this was known, as it's been intensely discussed in the early new product alert thread.

I'll add a note to the standard edition's page.
Edit: You can set the quality as needed and then right click the preset bar selecting "save as default preset". It should prevent any issues in the future.
Old 2nd November 2017
  #42
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bonne's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by inlinenl View Post
thnx Fabian, glad I posted, but also feel I should apologize on my initial response ... way to busy to follow all updates etc. Updated to the latest version and now I have these extra "-" options which really make the difference .. thnx , now a new start with NOVA/GE ))
When the Sonnox Dynamic EQ was released a while back some TDR Nova fans came out praising the Sonnox on GS - and at the same time being critical of Nova's sound.

Wonder if some of these could unknowingly have done what inlinenl did?

Now that the dust has settled a bit has anyone been able to compare these two Dyn EQs?

JB

Last edited by bonne; 7th November 2017 at 02:30 PM.. Reason: OT
Old 2nd November 2017
  #43
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Got a sinking feeling half way through this thread, then a warm fuzzy one by the end...

A good example of how engineers with good temperment can actually get a good result in communicating online
Old 2nd November 2017
  #44
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^^^^+1
Old 3rd November 2017
  #45
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JP__'s Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP__ View Post
I dont know which plug ins Wim used in his test. But the TDR Nova without any engaged bands nearly nulls (>90dB) with the files PLUG_1 and _2.
I have also test it with the VST Analyser where you can see the simple DC-filter we might hear in those files.
I tried to talk to Fabien about it in the past and have also ask if it could be made a switchable feature instead (as it always annoys me while testing Nova), but never got any reply.
Two additional pics to complete my yesterdays measurements.
So, that rasp greyness we could hear in those files, might come from this low level saturation.
Attached Thumbnails
listen to these files with EQ plugins in "bypass", your opinion please-tdr-nova_.jpg   listen to these files with EQ plugins in "bypass", your opinion please-tdr-nova_byp.jpg  
Old 3rd November 2017
  #46
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Great stuff gents.

Fabien, do any of your other plugins use that feature (or similar)?
Old 3rd November 2017
  #47
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Hermetech Mastering's Avatar
 

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I always use the "-" modes in mastering, and have the "sat" turned off in all TDR plugs, I get enough of that with the analogue chain.

Agree that Fabien is always courteous and willing to question himself and his products, whilst remaining extremely informative. Hats of to TDR. Can't wait for the Slick EQ M update!
Old 3rd November 2017
  #48
Quote:
Originally Posted by macc View Post
Great stuff gents.

Fabien, do any of your other plugins use that feature (or similar)?
No, this restricts to Nova and Nova GE. We'll maybe make it a straight parameter/button, that's certainly more self explaining.
Old 3rd November 2017
  #49
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermetech Mastering View Post
I always use the "-" modes in mastering, and have the "sat" turned off in all TDR plugs, I get enough of that with the analogue chain.

Agree that Fabien is always courteous and willing to question himself and his products, whilst remaining extremely informative. Hats of to TDR. Can't wait for the Slick EQ M update!
Agreed. What about this Slick M update you speak of? I hope it's tasty
Old 4th November 2017
  #50
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teebaum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by FabienTDR View Post
No worries, I think it's a perfectly valid concern. As said above, the placement of this "feature" wasn't exactly our wisest choice. But I assumed this was known, as it's been intensely discussed in the early new product alert thread.

I'll add a note to the standard edition's page.
Edit: You can set the quality as needed and then right click the preset bar selecting "save as default preset". It should prevent any issues in the future.
ok, it was in"insane-"mode in my default setting, that's the reason i never heared this aspect.
Old 4th November 2017
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by melopie View Post
Agreed. What about this Slick M update you speak of? I hope it's tasty
Sincerest apologies to Fabien & Vlad, I don't think I was supposed to drop that in public yet.
Old 4th November 2017
  #52
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whippoorwill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermetech Mastering View Post
Sincerest apologies to Fabien & Vlad, I don't think I was supposed to drop that in public yet.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/prod...l#post12932296

mentioned here already so you might be off the hook.

Amazing products, incredible lack of "sound". the most transparent plugins I know, by far. I sometimes wish there was a way of changing the quality levels of TDR stuff to insane across all of the plugin instances with a click. I often work in precise and then change it to insane for the end or for export.

Last edited by whippoorwill; 4th November 2017 at 02:42 PM.. Reason: clarity
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