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Goodhertz Tilfshift Equalizer Plugins
Old 29th September 2017
  #1
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teebaum's Avatar
Goodhertz Tiltshift

there are different tilt-eq-plugins, and if the curves are comparable, they should sound similar - but they don't do IMHO.
also I know and appreciate the gyraf amber tilt (which probably was the godfather of the slick eq)
the goodhert tiltshift is very nice - it's much less "digital", closer to the gyraf.
the sound has something "sweet and cloudy", which I'm not sure if it's always a good option.
I have tried to find out if goodhertz works with nonlinear aspects (e. g. saturation) but found nothing.


Last edited by teebaum; 1st October 2017 at 02:09 AM..
Old 29th September 2017
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teebaum View Post
there are different tilt-eq-plugins, and if the curves are comparable, they should sound similar - but they don't do
Which also counts for most digital EQs (IIR and FIR) in my experiences.

Did you compared the goodhertz to the HOFA tilt (which I nearly stopped using as it still isnt clean/accurate enough for my likings (but still better than others)?

Thanks for the tip, I wasnt aware of this and Im looking forward to give it a try within the next days.
Old 29th September 2017
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP__ View Post
Which also counts for most digital EQs (IIR and FIR) in my experiences.

Did you compared the goodhertz to the HOFA tilt (which I nearly stopped using as it still isnt clean/accurate enough for my likings (but still better than others)?

Thanks for the tip, I wasnt aware of this and Im looking forward to give it a try within the next days.
the goodhertz sounds IMHO very different to the hofa.

the hofa I would describe more as transparent/hard, the goodhertz organic, the slick a little brown/grained
(not judgmental, only "descriptive" meant)

Last edited by teebaum; 29th September 2017 at 12:29 PM..
Old 29th September 2017
  #4
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Ever tried the tilt function in Pro-Q2? I use that quite often and sounds pretty good to me. What I like is that you can set the slope, use it in MS and depending on the slope, change the Q as well.
Old 29th September 2017
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teebaum View Post
the goodhertz sounds IMHO very different to the hofa.

the hofa I would describe more as transparent/hard, the goodhertz organic, the slick a little brown/grained
At first I liked the transparency of the HOFA very much. The flat slope is very usefull too. But the hardness and that little left grainyness in sounds annoyed me more and more. The TDR feels odd to me from the beginning. I tried it many times because of the constant raves here and elsewhere, but always ended up in bypass.
So the goodhertz sounds promising, even when cloudyness is nothing I would really look for in digital tools. But maybe thats the only possible trade off: grainyness vs cloudyness...?
I still not get why its still that hard to develope a clean (real artefact optimized) digital EQ in 2017...
Old 29th September 2017
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP__ View Post
I still not get why its still that hard to develope a clean (real artefact optimized) digital EQ in 2017...
don't take the "cloudy" for weakness, rather as "dreamy"

i believe that what you don't like about digital eq's is nothing faulty, but aspects of the source material that are mercilessly shown, while analog filters have almost always something benevolent.

whether one prefers the rather "hard" at hofa to the somewhat "rough" of the slick eq's is IMHO's taste.
Old 29th September 2017
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by da goose View Post
Ever tried the tilt function in Pro-Q2? I use that quite often and sounds pretty good to me. What I like is that you can set the slope, use it in MS and depending on the slope, change the Q as well.
I like the pro-q2 user interface, but in terms of sound it is nothing special to IMHO.
but since a friend of mine has seen ted jensen using q2 in a attended session, he can't be bad
Old 29th September 2017
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teebaum View Post

i believe that what you don't like about digital eq's is nothing faulty, but aspects of the source material that are mercilessly shown, while analog filters have almost always something benevolent.
No, definitly not, not for me. Tried it many, many times as I really want to believe in that "taste/it just has to fit thing" too (live would be much easier when not struggling with gear quaities).
Its also not a digital/analog question (our Porter EQ wasnt any better here, for example. As many others). But the analog stuff is easier to mod/optimized (anyone out there is really modding plugins?).
I made quite some blindtests with other engineers in the past (one even here with very less response) which to me is an important aspect to not bias yourself. And while for some it was indeed more about a taste thing (some couldnt even name the diffs) others were able to clearly state the diffs in quality while being very homogen in their opinions regarding pure quality. Tests were always done with a spread of different musical styles and qualities to overcome the taste aspect as much as possible.
But of course, working with music is always about taste. If someone loves grainy/hash/shrinkled sounding tools, cool. But personally I have hard times to imagine the use of those on a regular basis in mastering But just my taste...
Old 29th September 2017
  #9
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Wasn’t terribly impressed with the GoodHertz.

Getting a lot of mileage from the Eventide EQuivocate though: https://www.eventideaudio.com/promo/equivocate
Once you look past the marketing spiel and the Graphic EQ part, it's actually rather flexible and very musical.
Old 29th September 2017
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reynaud View Post
Getting a lot of mileage from the Eventide EQuivocate though: https://www.eventideaudio.com/promo/equivocate
Once you look past the marketing spiel and the Graphic EQ part, it's actually rather flexible and very musical.
interesting approach, but i think you compare there apples with pears - graphically linear phase with tilt minimal phase - concepts can't be much more different.

Last edited by teebaum; 29th September 2017 at 04:51 PM..
Old 29th September 2017
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reynaud View Post
Wasn’t terribly impressed with the GoodHertz.

Getting a lot of mileage from the Eventide EQuivocate though: https://www.eventideaudio.com/promo/equivocate
Once you look past the marketing spiel and the Graphic EQ part, it's actually rather flexible and very musical.
That looks really interesting, reynaud - free at the moment with an iLok username as well.
Old 29th September 2017
  #12
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devinkerr's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by teebaum View Post
there are different tilt-eq-plugins, and if the curves are comparable, they should sound similar - but they don't do IMHO.
also I know and appreciate the gyraf amber tilt (which probably was the godfather of the slick eq)
the goodhert tiltshift is very nice - it's much less "digital", closer to the gyraf.
the sound has something "sweet and cloudy", which I'm not sure if it's always a good option.
I have tried to find out if goodhertz works with nonlinear aspects (e. g. saturation) but found nothing.

Hi there! You're right: the Goodhertz Tiltshift is going to sound pretty different than other tilt designs out there because, essentially, it's doing something completely different. There’s no saturation — it’s super clean — so that’s not what you’re hearing.

Most tilt EQ designs are just two shelving filters tied together in some way (moving in opposite directions). This can be useful when you want the sound of two shelving filters, but it doesn't really provide a new mixing tool (it might be faster to use, but it won't sound different). Tiltshift is a new mixing tool because it's able to tilt the entire frequency spectrum evenly and with extreme transparency. This graph is the actual frequency response of Tiltshift for a wide range:


This is something that no other algorithms do (that I'm aware of), and it ends up almost not sounding like an EQ at all. You can change the tone a lot without leaving a trace.

Anyhow, hope that sheds some light on why Tiltshift sounds the way it does!
Old 29th September 2017
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devinkerr View Post
Hi there! You're right: the Goodhertz Tiltshift is going to sound pretty different than other tilt designs out there because, essentially, it's doing something completely different. There’s no saturation — it’s super clean — so that’s not what you’re hearing.



This is something that no other algorithms do (that I'm aware of), and it ends up almost not sounding like an EQ at all. You can change the tone a lot without leaving a trace.

Anyhow, hope that sheds some light on why Tiltshift sounds the way it does!
Afaik Hofa and TDR are offering those kind of curve as well.

Most digital EQs stated to be "super clean" doing the correct maths, but sounding quite different in the end nevertheless. The funny thing for me is that even most developers seem to really do not exactly know why it sounds like it does. At least thats a similarity to developing analog gear...
Old 29th September 2017
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devinkerr View Post
Hi there! You're right: the Goodhertz Tiltshift is going to sound pretty different than other tilt designs out there because, essentially, it's doing something completely different. There’s no saturation — it’s super clean — so that’s not what you’re hearing.

Most tilt EQ designs are just two shelving filters tied together in some way (moving in opposite directions). This can be useful when you want the sound of two shelving filters, but it doesn't really provide a new mixing tool (it might be faster to use, but it won't sound different). Tiltshift is a new mixing tool because it's able to tilt the entire frequency spectrum evenly and with extreme transparency. This graph is the actual frequency response of Tiltshift for a wide range:


This is something that no other algorithms do (that I'm aware of), and it ends up almost not sounding like an EQ at all. You can change the tone a lot without leaving a trace.

Anyhow, hope that sheds some light on why Tiltshift sounds the way it does!
thank you!

i think, the slick-eq is based on the design of the gyraf 23 which use a cascade of very gentle shelfs, which also results in an almost straight line that can be tilted.

jakob of gyraf write:
"What sets it apart from all other tilt EQ designs is that we designed it around a highly linear 1dB/oct slope filter, so that rotating the tilt control will tilt an almost ruler-straight response curve, to a maximum steepness of 1dB/Oct.

Our reason for doing it like this is that although a standard tilt (which is basically a Baxandall control, that cuts top while boosting low and the other way around) does come with the associated phase roll that is a side effect of all analogue-domain filters. And this group delay/phase roll (which is distributed just around cutoff frequency) easily identifies the sound to our ears as "equalized".

So what we acheive in the 1dB/Oct tilt function is to "spread out" or distribute the "needed" phase roll across the whole spectrum, meaning that at any given interval, only minute amounts of group delay is apparent.

In total, it allows quite some correction without sounding "Eq'ed".

And because you'd occasionally want to correct outer ends of spectrum, we have added a gentle Baxandall tone control, shelving lows and highs, wide-Q bell mid, each at three selectable frequencies, that we spent quite some time optimizing. "
Old 29th September 2017
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devinkerr View Post
Anyhow, hope that sheds some light on why Tiltshift sounds the way it does!
is the tiltshift a linear-phase or a minimal-phase design?
Old 29th September 2017
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teebaum View Post
thank you!

i think, the slick-eq is based on the design of the gyraf 23 which use a cascade of very gentle shelfs, which also results in an almost straight line that can be tilted.

jakob of gyraf write:
"What sets it apart from all other tilt EQ designs is that we designed it around a highly linear 1dB/oct slope filter, so that rotating the tilt control will tilt an almost ruler-straight response curve, to a maximum steepness of 1dB/Oct.

Our reason for doing it like this is that although a standard tilt (which is basically a Baxandall control, that cuts top while boosting low and the other way around) does come with the associated phase roll that is a side effect of all analogue-domain filters. And this group delay/phase roll (which is distributed just around cutoff frequency) easily identifies the sound to our ears as "equalized".

So what we acheive in the 1dB/Oct tilt function is to "spread out" or distribute the "needed" phase roll across the whole spectrum, meaning that at any given interval, only minute amounts of group delay is apparent.

In total, it allows quite some correction without sounding "Eq'ed".

And because you'd occasionally want to correct outer ends of spectrum, we have added a gentle Baxandall tone control, shelving lows and highs, wide-Q bell mid, each at three selectable frequencies, that we spent quite some time optimizing. "
Cool! That sounds similar in design goal but very different in implementation since we don't use cascaded shelves in Tiltshift.
Old 29th September 2017
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teebaum View Post
is the tiltshift a linear-phase or a minimal-phase design?
Minimum phase. That's definitely one reason it sounds so different than the Hofa, which is not minimum phase.
Old 29th September 2017
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devinkerr View Post
Minimum phase. That's definitely one reason it sounds so different than the Hofa, which is not minimum phase.
HOFA looks like minimum phase IIR filter, but have oversampling enabled by default at base rates.

Only linear phase plugin known to me with special tilt filter (eg. not standard shelves in the fashion, you've mentioned), is STilt by TB Pro Audio..

Michal
Old 29th September 2017
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msmucr View Post
HOFA looks like minimum phase IIR filter, but have oversampling enabled by default at base rates.

Only linear phase plugin known to me with special tilt filter (eg. not standard shelves in the fashion, you've mentioned), is STilt by TB Pro Audio..

Michal
Oh, that makes sense! I just remember seeing a lot of pre-echo.

FWIW, we have considered adding a linear phase option in Tiltshift, like the advanced parameter in Tone Control that can continuously vary the phase characteristics between minimum and linear phase.
Old 30th September 2017
  #20
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Old 30th September 2017
  #21
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Just give the Goodhertz Tiltshift EQ a try and it seems to be really quite good sounding. Unfortunately not the same slopes than the HOFA, which makes the comparison hard when using higher values. What Teebaum hears as a bit "cloudy" I would rather call mostly an unshrinkled sense of width over freq. While the HOFA might give the impression of sounding tighter it does strange things to the feel of width (or organic airness or whatever you want to call it) for me, which is also an aspect of the mentioned graininess I hear with so much EQs out there. For me when bypassing both plug ins the added cloudiness does to not harm the audio that much like that typical graininess does.
I really doubt the diff only comes from the bit different shape of the curves and it makes me wonder if anyone has deeper insights (low level distortion due to rounding erors might be a hint, even when Im aware that most people would call it insignificant).
Is the Tiltshift using any oversampling? The OS in the HOFA does not make anything better in my ears.

PS: Im now testing the Eventide EQuivocate as well. I can be used as a very linear sloped tilt as well by just choosing a 2-band setup. Soundwise I would say its right in the middle of both others without being wrinkled like the HOFA, while not as cloudy as the Goodhertz, which sounds now a bit strained on vocals in direct comparison too. Once again an real interesting comparisson. Thanks for the tip, Reynaud. I think I now understood what you mean in your post.

Last edited by JP__; 30th September 2017 at 12:11 PM..
Old 30th September 2017
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devinkerr View Post
Oh, that makes sense! I just remember seeing a lot of pre-echo.

FWIW, we have considered adding a linear phase option in Tiltshift, like the advanced parameter in Tone Control that can continuously vary the phase characteristics between minimum and linear phase.
I think with FIR filters it should also be possible to shape them differently depending on the frequency band. I think a tilt that becomes in the bass minimal phase and upward increasingly linear phase could be interesting.
that would defuse the prerinning problem and ensure a good spatiality in the heights.

Last edited by teebaum; 30th September 2017 at 12:51 PM..
Old 30th September 2017
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teebaum View Post
I think with FIR filters it should also be possible to shape them differently depending on the frequency band. I think a tilt that becomes in the bass minimal phase and upward increasingly linear phase could be interesting.
that would defuse the prerinning problem and ensure a good spatiality in the heights.
Interesting suggestion! We could definitely do something along those lines, though I'm not sure what exactly we'd call that control.

Perhaps "Minimum Phase Below" and then allow the user to choose the frequency below which the filter becomes minimum phase.
Old 30th September 2017
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP__ View Post
Just give the Goodhertz Tiltshift EQ a try and it seems to be really quite good sounding. Unfortunately not the same slopes than the HOFA, which makes the comparison hard when using higher values. What Teebaum hears as a bit "cloudy" I would rather call mostly an unshrinkled sense of width over freq. While the HOFA might give the impression of sounding tighter it does strange things to the feel of width (or organic airness or whatever you want to call it) for me, which is also an aspect of the mentioned graininess I hear with so much EQs out there. For me when bypassing both plug ins the added cloudiness does to not harm the audio that much like that typical graininess does.
I really doubt the diff only comes from the bit different shape of the curves and it makes me wonder if anyone has deeper insights (low level distortion due to rounding erors might be a hint, even when Im aware that most people would call it insignificant).
Is the Tiltshift using any oversampling? The OS in the HOFA does not make anything better in my ears.

PS: Im now testing the Eventide EQuivocate as well. I can be used as a very linear sloped tilt as well by just choosing a 2-band setup. Soundwise I would say its right in the middle of both others without being wrinkled like the HOFA, while not as cloudy as the Goodhertz, which sounds now a bit strained on vocals in direct comparison too. Once again an real interesting comparisson. Thanks for the tip, Reynaud. I think I now understood what you mean in your post.
No, Tiltshift does not use oversampling as it would not provide any benefits in our case. Tiltshift already performs perfectly up to the nyquist, so oversampling would only harm that performance and introduce latency.
Old 1st October 2017
  #25
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A full-frequency minimum phase tilt EQ with optional hi- and lo- shelves, based on Bessel filters with fine control of slope: Altona Tilt&Shelf
Old 2nd October 2017
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyper.real View Post
A full-frequency minimum phase tilt EQ with optional hi- and lo- shelves, based on Bessel filters with fine control of slope: Altona Tilt&Shelf
you had the chance to compare the altona with slick, hofa & goodhertz?
Old 2nd October 2017
  #27
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Originally Posted by hyper.real View Post
A full-frequency minimum phase tilt EQ with optional hi- and lo- shelves, based on Bessel filters with fine control of slope: Altona Tilt&Shelf
my first impression is - the altona goes in the same direction as the hofa, but I need to compare a little bit more to know if I like it better or not.
Old 5th October 2017
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teebaum View Post
you had the chance to compare the altona with slick, hofa & goodhertz?
Only with Hofa. IIRC I didn't find the Hofa was a sonic improvement, and the Altona is just plain and simple to operate.

Another possibility (on my to-do list) is the Tilt preset in the new Newfangled EQuivocate. Which is one very nice sounding equaliser.
Old 7th October 2017
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devinkerr View Post


This is something that no other algorithms do (that I'm aware of)
How about this one?

https://venomode.com/pivot

Sounds great to me. Interested in how your Tiltshift compares.
Old 7th October 2017
  #30
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Sounds great to me. Interested in how your Tiltshift compares.[/QUOTE]
tell us your impressions
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