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Tokyo Dawn DeEdger Dynamics Plugins
Old 4th June 2017
  #61
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From my testings its not really capable to remove any harshness thats not in the transient, at least not without any deeper altering of the audio. With a real transient sensitiv monitoring (a lot of modern active systems or monitoring controllers simply arent) its quite obvious that its behavoiur isnt really subtle within the transient. Its just a special tool which can fit or not.
Separate processing for M/S would be quite helpful here I think. For example to smooth out some ticky hihats in the S channel without a too pronouced overall softening. Or some too nervous sounding vocals in the mid only.
Old 4th June 2017
  #62
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Yeah I totally understand the harsh highhat in a dark mix problem which could very well be solved with this tool.

On the other hand I often get dark mixes with harsh vocals, guitars or one or two other harsh elements. In this situations I'm probably better off using other tools.
Old 4th June 2017
  #63
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Maybe "deharshening" is just the wrong word in this context, its maybe more about looking for a kind of "calmness" as the opposit of "fidgety" where the inner dynamic is uneven over the freq spectrum.
Which is something that comes from the use of quite some mics, preamps or other certain gear while tracking. (Digital) saturation is another process that affect this negativly or certain converters and such...
Old 4th June 2017
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundgeezer View Post
On the other hand I often get dark mixes with harsh vocals, guitars or one or two other harsh elements. In this situations I'm probably better off using other tools.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP__ View Post
... its quite obvious that its behavoiur isnt really subtle within the transient. Its just a special tool which can fit or not.
I have to agree. when I got the demo I remembered a couple of years ago I struggled with an album - very nice recording, balanced mixes, great drum sound - big problem was somebody decided to use some kind of exciter on the main vocals. totally unnecessary as the singer has a very nice voice - long story short, the vocals were harsh but the trouble was the drummer, who was kinda in charge, insisted I don't touch the drum sound, especially the snare - very open, Toto like sound. So it was a lot of trial and error until I made them happy. So I though that could be the perfect test for DeEdger - well, as much as I tried, I couldn't de-harsh the vocals without loosing from the snare's snap. in fact I think something that does the exact opposite would have been appropriate in my situation - de-edging without affecting the transients ...
the thing has it's uses, I'm sure, but like most tools, it's not an all-in-one wonder effect. I'm still waiting to use it on something that's really meant for it ...
Old 4th June 2017
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karumba View Post
a separate mono version isn't needed. the plugin automatically switches to mono internally (and then saving ressources) when its on a mono track.
Thanks for the info!
Old 4th June 2017
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP__ View Post
Maybe "deharshening" is just the wrong word in this context
i also would say it is. for me "harshness" is more related to resonances in mid to high frequencies. DeEdger addresses the hardness, i.e. more in the time domain.
Old 4th June 2017
  #67
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It's interesting to see that even here the name itself is disregarded and/or misunderstood.

This is NOT a de-harsher. This is a DE-EDGER. It takes the edge out of ticky/clicky things, which is one part of making the end result a bit less harsh. However, it's only doing it's work on a very specific part of audio. You don't get the full be-all/end-all effect.

Which means that expecting it to soften elements like vocals that are harsh just doesn't work, unless those harsh elements happen to be consonants/plosives.

What some of you guys are obviously looking for is Oeksound's Soothe.

Actually, soothe + de-edger make for a very good pairing that can save a bad mix (and do a lot of damage on a good mix).
Old 4th June 2017
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP__ View Post
Maybe "deharshening" is just the wrong word in this context, its maybe more about looking for a kind of "calmness" as the opposit of "fidgety" where the inner dynamic is uneven over the freq spectrum.
Which is something that comes from the use of quite some mics, preamps or other certain gear while tracking. (Digital) saturation is another process that affect this negativly or certain converters and such...
The word 'harsh' should be considered as the "global descriptor" which then can be broken down into smaller elements.

The cumulative effect of these:

1) Lots of resonances
2) Spiky/clicky transients
3) high amounts of unwanted/non-harmonic distortion
4) Imbalance of overall frequency spectrum, overloading the sensitive areas of the ear/brain

.. all contribute to what we give the global name of 'harsh'.

DeEdger just happens to tackle nr 2 on this list. As far as I know, nr 3 is impossible to tackle afterwards (unless somebody comes up with some weird super algorithm and AI).

Nr 1 on the list can be taken care of with filtering of various kinds or masking so that the ear gets distracted and doesn't notice the resonances.
Old 5th June 2017
  #69
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmanic View Post
It's interesting to see that even here the name itself is disregarded and/or misunderstood.

This is NOT a de-harsher. This is a DE-EDGER. It takes the edge out of ticky/clicky things, which is one part of making the end result a bit less harsh. However, it's only doing it's work on a very specific part of audio. You don't get the full be-all/end-all effect.

Which means that expecting it to soften elements like vocals that are harsh just doesn't work, unless those harsh elements happen to be consonants/plosives.

What some of you guys are obviously looking for is Oeksound's Soothe.

Actually, soothe + de-edger make for a very good pairing that can save a bad mix (and do a lot of damage on a good mix).
I was wondering about the differences in the two! I always like a lot of nibbles vs a big chomp. Seems like a combo would be a good approach.
Old 5th June 2017
  #70
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Thanks bmanic your comments are excellent as usual.

Soothe is great and I'm sure that deEdger will find its uses in many situation as well.
Unfortunatly I would often need a 'de-non-harmonic-distorter'
Old 5th June 2017
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmanic View Post
It's interesting to see that even here the name itself is disregarded and/or misunderstood.

This is NOT a de-harsher. This is a DE-EDGER. It takes the edge out of ticky/clicky things, which is one part of making the end result a bit less harsh. However, it's only doing it's work on a very specific part of audio. You don't get the full be-all/end-all effect.

Which means that expecting it to soften elements like vocals that are harsh just doesn't work, unless those harsh elements happen to be consonants/plosives.

What some of you guys are obviously looking for is Oeksound's Soothe.

Actually, soothe + de-edger make for a very good pairing that can save a bad mix (and do a lot of damage on a good mix).
yes, I think you are right. I and others probably automatically assumed DeEdger means it is targeted to de-harsh vocals as we probably deal with this on a daily basis - but like you very well pointed out it is more suited for taming a clicky mix - which could be also helpful at times, no question.
Old 5th June 2017
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmanic View Post
It's interesting to see that even here the name itself is disregarded and/or misunderstood.

This is NOT a de-harsher. This is a DE-EDGER. It takes the edge out of ticky/clicky things, which is one part of making the end result a bit less harsh. However, it's only doing it's work on a very specific part of audio. You don't get the full be-all/end-all effect.

Which means that expecting it to soften elements like vocals that are harsh just doesn't work, unless those harsh elements happen to be consonants/plosives.

What some of you guys are obviously looking for is Oeksound's Soothe.

Actually, soothe + de-edger make for a very good pairing that can save a bad mix (and do a lot of damage on a good mix).
On the point as always !
Old 12th June 2017
  #73
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Been using this quite a lot - FWIW it is in similar territory to the G21 but behaves quite differently. They compliment each other (along with Soothe) beautifully though.

But aaaanyway I'm here to ask some questions. I'm curious about;

a) The compensation; I get that it essentially adds back what is being taken away, but how it does that would be good to know. Is it a dynamic eq boost with a soft onset/attack? Time constants being set under the hood etc?

and b) the 'auto threshold' (best term I can think of!); I can't quite figure out how this works. I'm guessing it's some kind of full-band-compression-in-the-sidechain-type deal. So when everything else goes away the target area is more prominent, and therefore gets acted upon...?

I could be way off with these so set me straight. I understand if you can't give away trade secrets etc, of course. But any information on how they work would be very useful indeed, just because of how my brain is wired

Cheres!
Old 13th June 2017
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macc View Post
Been using this quite a lot - FWIW it is in similar territory to the G21 but behaves quite differently. They compliment each other (along with Soothe) beautifully though.

But aaaanyway I'm here to ask some questions. I'm curious about;

a) The compensation; I get that it essentially adds back what is being taken away, but how it does that would be good to know. Is it a dynamic eq boost with a soft onset/attack? Time constants being set under the hood etc?

and b) the 'auto threshold' (best term I can think of!); I can't quite figure out how this works. I'm guessing it's some kind of full-band-compression-in-the-sidechain-type deal. So when everything else goes away the target area is more prominent, and therefore gets acted upon...?

I could be way off with these so set me straight. I understand if you can't give away trade secrets etc, of course. But any information on how they work would be very useful indeed, just because of how my brain is wired

Cheres!
for b) if I would guess, mathematically, it would be about analyzing the derivatives to a low order (I would guess 2 or 3) to get the "instantaneous" acceleration in context at that particular frequency and tell if it's too much or not. Then, compute a gain reduction signal, and apply that to an EQ band gain.

Such a strategy would normally trigger at every clic, transient, so I think there is something clever going on. Perhaps comparing acceleration at that frequency band compared to the acceleration to the rest of the spectrum ?
Old 13th June 2017
  #75
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And to Macc's questions I'll add...

c) does the size of the envelope (time domain) change within the algorithm at all. It sounds like it's fixed but I just wondered. I'd love to have the ability to control how much "edge" I'm processing.

Cheers.
Old 15th June 2017
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmoothTone View Post
And to Macc's questions I'll add...

c) does the size of the envelope (time domain) change within the algorithm at all. It sounds like it's fixed but I just wondered. I'd love to have the ability to control how much "edge" I'm processing.

Cheers.
Yeah, I thought about that too, being a tweak head. But I like the set and forget nature of it. I was just hoping to know a bit more about how/why it behaves, to help me know how to to set itn so I really can forget it
Old 15th June 2017
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Mastering View Post
Such a strategy would normally trigger at every clic, transient, so I think there is something clever going on. Perhaps comparing acceleration at that frequency band compared to the acceleration to the rest of the spectrum ?
I thought that too, it could well be that. But I can't shake the feeling the listen/sidechain part is compressed, for some reason.

Put me out of my misery karumba!
Old 16th June 2017
  #78
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the depth parameter actually controls several other functions in the background and in such a way, that processing is only applied when needed. so it is not a "always/general softening" (or as "SmoothTone" described it with "fixed"). especially the last part was one of the most time consuming during the development. make it do the right thing, but only when needed. i would say a normal transient shaper or dynamic EQ is much simpler in comparison and by far not set+forget capable.

the DeEdger process is very fast (even the meter is visually slowed down) & compensate is also tightly linked to the process (i.e. not simply "at the end" or "on top"). but you could think of it as a EQ-band with slowed down control behavior in order to not alter the spectral response of the original signal.

i wouldn't like to go into much more technical details for obvious resons, but i hope that helps a bit understanding the effect.
Old 21st June 2017
  #79
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Thanks to the very generous demo restrictions I tried the DeEdger within the last weeks on many different mixes from many different sources and while it can be really useful on certain problems (especially those spiky highs) and the whole idea is very cool the tradeoffs are feeling somehow just too big for me always. It feels just not transparent enough for my liking regarding mastering tools and seems to make strange (dynamic) things in the lower mids especially which gives the feel of lost punch and separation, even with very decent depth values (around 1). Cant really say what it is, but it ended in bypass everytime I tried (had a bit similar experience with Soothe when testing). Sorry Jan for playing the bad guy here, I know its an unspoken rule here at GS to say rather nothing than anything bad, but I hope my comments maybe helps you for further developments somehow.
Old 21st June 2017
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP__ View Post
Thanks to the very generous demo restrictions I tried the DeEdger within the last weeks on many different mixes from many different sources and while it can be really useful on certain problems (especially those spiky highs) and the whole idea is very cool the tradeoffs are feeling somehow just too big for me always. It feels just not transparent enough for my liking regarding mastering tools and seems to make strange (dynamic) things in the lower mids especially which gives the feel of lost punch and separation, even with very decent depth values (around 1). Cant really say what it is, but it ended in bypass everytime I tried (had a bit similar experience with Soothe when testing). Sorry Jan for playing the bad guy here, I know its an unspoken rule here at GS to say rather nothing than anything bad, but I hope my comments maybe helps you for further developments somehow.
I don't think you need to worry about giving your honest opinion: I get the impression Jan is the kind of guy who'll listen and use it in a positive way. This is how we improve.
Old 21st June 2017
  #81
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Originally Posted by lowland View Post
I don't think you need to worry about giving your honest opinion: I get the impression Jan is the kind of guy who'll listen and use it in a positive way. This is how we improve.
Thanks. Yes, we both "know" (never happen we met in person, unfortunately) us for quite some years now and he is just a real professional.

It might be something psychoacoustic I hear (manipulated overtone spectrum and dynamics, maybe...?), as when making the standard diff test here, theres nothing left in this area. With "compensate" off it feels a bit cleaner I think.
Just strange... It seems like a real beast, maybe I still need more time to get used to this kind of processing sound...? Dont really know, Im just working on some masters where it would be really really usefull when I get it to work without this strange side effect.
Old 21st June 2017
  #82
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I'm sort of in agreement with JP. I know what you mean - but in a lot of cases here (electronic stuff) the benefits outweigh the costs. It's a very handy thing to have around. Same with Soothe, on the right material.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JP__ View Post
With "compensate" off it feels a bit cleaner I think.
Yep - I'm generally leaning towards compensate off (with lower depths) too.

FWIW I'd like an expanded Impact scale. Some subconscious bollocks maybe but having such a big scale inclines one to do more than one might (a similarity with Soothe, IMO). Might just be me though. At least, a numerical 'peak impact value' readout would be great.


Quote:
Im just working on some masters where it would be really really usefull when I get it to work without this strange side effect.
Try the G21, if you haven't. Yeah I know, I say about it a lot, and I am sorry. But really. It feels altogether more transparent/elegant/musical/'harmonious' than De-edger, though with more restricted frequency selections due to stepped controls. I admit a heavy bias, it has to be said. I do love the thing. They work very well in conjunction though.
Old 21st June 2017
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macc View Post

Try the G21, if you haven't. Yeah I know, I say about it a lot, and I am sorry. But really. It feels altogether more transparent/elegant/musical/'harmonious' than De-edger, though with more restricted frequency selections due to stepped controls. I admit a heavy bias, it has to be said. I do love the thing. They work very well in conjunction though.
I just had listen to several files back then and had the impression of a quite heavy handed (mainly distortion) device and therefore lost interest, but never had it in my hands. I should change that maybe, but it seems not that easy to get a test unit...
Old 21st June 2017
  #84
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Originally Posted by JP__ View Post
I just had listen to several files back then and had the impression of a quite heavy handed (mainly distortion) device and therefore lost interest, but never had it in my hands. I should change that maybe, but it seems not that easy to get a test unit...
It is NOT a distortion box * but I understand why everybody thinks that - it is a clipper after all. But it's not

It is anything but heavy-handed. It's beautiful. It can make things disappear effortlessly. Think an infinite knee dynamic eq, but with no time constants and most importantly, no crossovers/splitting. It removes energy by clipping, yes, but the harmonic byproducts are filtered/diverted off and used to power the meters. So it doesn't need any power.

Sorry for the OT, karumba.



* Unless you really want it to be
Old 3rd July 2017
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macc View Post
It is NOT a distortion box * but I understand why everybody thinks that - it is a clipper after all. But it's not

It is anything but heavy-handed. It's beautiful. It can make things disappear effortlessly. Think an infinite knee dynamic eq, but with no time constants and most importantly, no crossovers/splitting. It removes energy by clipping, yes, but the harmonic byproducts are filtered/diverted off and used to power the meters. So it doesn't need any power.

Sorry for the OT, karumba.
absolutely no problem. i guess i need to try it out myself at some time.

btw, v1.1.0 of DeEdger is out. it includes the M-only & S-only channel options which has been wished by a many users.
Old 3rd July 2017
  #86
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Sounds interesting..........what sort of copy protection does it use? (i'd need to install in on 3 systems)
Old 3rd July 2017
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I.R.Baboon View Post
Sounds interesting..........what sort of copy protection does it use? (i'd need to install in on 3 systems)
It uses simple license file.

According to the license agreement you're free to install it on 5 computers
Old 6th July 2017
  #88
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Just tried the demo........to be honest i don't think it gives better results than other multiband options, for example the Waves trans-X multi can give similar results.

It's not magic...........it'll smooth out the high end on a mix, but also reduce the snare transient for example.

However the interface is a bit more friendly and M/S is useful. Might pick it up when the price drops a bit!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #89
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It shines in certain scenarios, and as bmanic said, paired with Soothe can really save a bad mix.

De-edger, like Soothe, is pretty unique and is a really valuable tool in mixing and stem work for taming the leading edge of poky snares and hats.

I woukdn't use transx on program material as the minimum phase crossovers are far from transparent. It would be a rare mix that benefits from all that phase shifting.

Cheers

Conundra
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