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Goodbye Waveburner, hello...? DAW Software
Old 25th February 2017
  #61
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Jerry - I'll upload it to that thread and also dig through my archives to see if I have any other gems. I was reading through a discussion dated 1995 on NoNoise vs Cedar, with comments by Gabe Wiener, J P Piano, Dan Dugan and others. Really enjoy reading those old discussions!
Old 27th February 2017
  #62
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Adam Dempsey's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted User View Post
Is this Australian pricing for "Classic" or HD?

"Classic" was much more expensive than HD, especially since it had 6 options just for NoNoise, two options for SRC, one for Reverb, one for TimeShift/PitchShift, two PQ options (standard and Expanded), and some I forget. Some options were dropped for HD while some were grouped together with others.
Sonic Solutions "classic" (well before HD arrived on the scene), with expanded PQ editing, machine control (for 1630/U-Matic masters) and NoNoise™.
Yep, additional options for video and networking would've made it more expensive still. This with a Yamaha real-time CD burner with remote, Yamaha DMP7-D digital mixer, two Sony PCM 3402 DASH machines, and two PCM 1630's (with custom modified ADC filters) and full array of 1/2" & 1/4" machines & NR.
Old 27th February 2017
  #63
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Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Dempsey View Post
Sonic Solutions "classic" (well before HD arrived on the scene), with expanded PQ editing, machine control (for 1630/U-Matic masters) and NoNoise™.
Yep, additional options for video and networking would've made it more expensive still. This with a Yamaha real-time CD burner with remote, Yamaha DMP7-D digital mixer, two Sony PCM 3402 DASH machines, and two PCM 1630's (with custom modified ADC filters) and full array of 1/2" & 1/4" machines & NR.
Pics please!

Here or in the Vintage DAW thread, or both.

I've still got my original Yamaha CD-R 100 burners, the ones with the caddy.

Paid many thousands for them back in the day, when a single 3M CD-R was $35.

Best, JT
Old 27th February 2017
  #64
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I remember going to AES convention LA back in the early 90s, and they were having a "show special", where you could buy a package of Start Lab CD-R blanks for somewhere around $150. I think it was a package of 3 for 150. Always wondered how anyone could afford to make coasters back then!
Old 27th February 2017
  #65
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Here's one of Glenn's media error charts from awhile ago. I had others, but can't seem to find them. Notice he has the YPR101 at the end of the chart.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf CDR_BLER.pdf (242.7 KB, 43 views)
Old 28th February 2017
  #66
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Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpad View Post
Here's one of Glenn's media error charts from awhile ago. I had others, but can't seem to find them. Notice he has the YPR101 at the end of the chart.
Yep, that's the chart!
Seems like it appeared in some audio publication back then... 1999-2000?
I was so surprised that Mitsui Gold scored so poorly, which is what we were using at the time.
Verbatim Dark Blue Azo at 4x for audio and 16x for data backups are still holding up today.

I think that chart was the result of a series of tests by Glenn M and Bob Katz.

A few years later we discovered Plextools CD-R error testing, life is good.

Best, JT
Old 28th February 2017
  #67
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Glenn used to update them (the tests) periodically, and I know I had others too, but they seem to have gone the way of the wild goose.
Old 1st March 2017
  #68
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Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

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When Verbatim changed (IMO downgraded) to meet faster burning speeds, they became less reliable.

That's when we switched to Taiyo Yuden and Plextor burners, 10-12 years ago.

I still have stacks of old Plextor and Yamaha burners back in our shop, paid a small fortune for some of those, finally got rid of our gargantuan Sony 900s a few years ago, as they took up too much space!

Now that TY/JVC has stopped making CD-Rs we're using the "new" TY liscenced discs, they're not as reliable, a few C2 errors occasionally, but usable most of the time.

Best, JT
Old 1st March 2017
  #69
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Run-of-the-mill Verbatim stuff you normally see on the shelf today does not appear to be AZO dye. Most likely is regular old cyanine. The only way you can get AZO dye blanks today is to buy their Photo CD-R (Verbatim 95517), which also includes what they refer to as a protective "crystal" layer.
Old 1st March 2017
  #70
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Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpad View Post
Run-of-the-mill Verbatim stuff you normally see on the shelf today does not appear to be AZO dye. Most likely is regular old cyanine. The only way you can get AZO dye blanks today is to buy their Photo CD-R (Verbatim 95517), which also includes what they refer to as a protective "crystal" layer.
I might just buy a box to see if they're indeed as good as the old V discs!

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/con...C&A=details&Q=

Best, JT
Old 2nd March 2017
  #71
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We upgraded to Mavericks a year or two ago, didn't change a thing as far as sB goes.

Upgraded to El Capitan last month, everything still works pretty much as expected.

Holding off on Sierra for now though....

And yes, you should be running a separate computer just for mastering. I thought that was pretty obvious. Many of the old school guys (and gals) are actually using two, one to pitch and one to catch. And a third for general computing, internet, email, etc.

I agree with you in principle that sB should support all plugins without complaining, it should just work. On the other hand, just looking at it from a practical and sonic POV, you really don't want to be putting a whole lot of plugins on a master to begin with. Less is more, at least IMHO. YMMV. There are projects that do just fine with a bit of EQ and a touch of compression or limiting to really stand out. But that doesn't mean sB shouldn't work better with the plugins that are out there.

Thor


Quote:
Originally Posted by thermos View Post
It's pretty telling that the most vocal advocates of its stability are still using 10.6.8. That's just not practical in today's world to use an OS that old unless one is running a separate computer just for mastering. The list of incompatible plugins seems to be growing by the day with soundblade for me.

Hoping 2.3 will squash some bugs but they've been talking about impending new versions for 2 years now. Meanwhile they've released 2 complete versions of Amarra since their last .1 update of soundblade.
Old 2nd March 2017
  #72
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Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor View Post
We upgraded to Mavericks a year or two ago, didn't change a thing as far as sB goes.

Upgraded to El Capitan last month, everything still works pretty much as expected.

Holding off on Sierra for now though....

And yes, you should be running a separate computer just for mastering. I thought that was pretty obvious. Many of the old school guys (and gals) are actually using two, one to pitch and one to catch. And a third for general computing, internet, email, etc.

I agree with you in principle that sB should support all plugins without complaining, it should just work. On the other hand, just looking at it from a practical and sonic POV, you really don't want to be putting a whole lot of plugins on a master to begin with. Less is more, at least IMHO. YMMV. There are projects that do just fine with a bit of EQ and a touch of compression or limiting to really stand out. But that doesn't mean sB shouldn't work better with the plugins that are out there.

Thor
Agreed Thor, about having various Macs around the studio for various tasks! :~)>

We've got (counting)... 14! and 2 PCs.

My 2 studio Macs are both connected to the net for uploading and downloading, the new norm.

A separate old school Dell for running Plextools.

Most of our Macs (&PCs) in the building are connected via Ethernet and /or Wifi for various reasons.

Yes(!) I'm loving these discussions we're having in these few threads, just like old times on GS.

Best Regards, JT

p.s. Thanks for the report on "newer" Mac OS, maybe this is the year to leap...
Old 11th March 2017
  #73
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Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

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Originally Posted by tpad View Post
Good to know that DVD-R is reliable. They undoubtedbly have improved the technology since the early experience over a M-Works. I always thought they were an accident waiting to happen, and avoided them. DAT -- there's no disputing what they are all about!

Interesting to see the Azo dye recommendation from Glenn. Other GSers probably don't realize that he was -the- goto guy for CD-R related info back in the day (maybe still is today).

Over the years, my own experience with CD-R was that the green cyanine dye media wasn't as reliable on playback as the blue azo dye media. The blue dye apparently produces a sharper, stronger, image on playback, and I've always had much better luck playing back Verbatim AZO CD-Rs in a variety of playback transports than those made from cyanine and pthalocyanine [spelling?] dye. The only negative to AZO dye is sensitivity to UV because of the blue color, so you definitely want to keep them stored properly.

Library of Congress probably has the best information on data storage technology. They've found the Sun T10000 series of digital linear tape to be the most error-free storage medium, by several orders of magnitude in comparison to other ways. When you're storing petabytes of information like they regularly do, the BER makes a difference!
and to make a long story even longer...

so I found myself with a flexible day this week and decided to work on our archives from 2005 & 2006 which mostly live on Dual Layer DVD-R DL!

It was new technology at the time, but doubling the capacity to 8+GB was worth the risk, as it was a very time consuming activity.

So I've gone back and copied those discs to hard drive, Seagate 2TB HDDs.

The burner that created them, Plextor 716, had a struggle reading those discs, as it was cutting edge technology at the time.

But the LaCie BD-R D2 burner had no trouble at all, technology from a few years later, reading or copying the discs to HDD. I think the actual burner is a Pioneer in a LaCie branded box.

and there were NO failed discs, which is good news.

We store our disc archives in climate controlled conditions, on top quality media.

Best, JT
Old 11th March 2017
  #74
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Well that's good to know. Shelf life of good quality CD-R media supposedly will go for decades and decades, so they should last awhile when properly stored. Don't know what a good estimate is for DVD-R medium.

One option for long-term storage is LTO (linear tape open). Occasionally see some LTO-4 system going for an attractive price and have considered picking one up as a backup to the backup. I've got my main 8TB NAS unit backed up (mirrored) to an identical 8TB NAS unit that normally stays off. They are both RAID-5. The probability of them both going south is nil. However, as they always say, you can never have too many backups, and LTO is a very attractive option. Very robust storage medium too (much better than DVD-R). The only negative is that it is linear access as opposed to non-linear access that you get with hard disk, so you don't want to be regularly trying to extract things off of them.
Old 11th March 2017
  #75
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Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpad View Post
Well that's good to know. Shelf life of good quality CD-R media supposedly will go for decades and decades, so they should last awhile when properly stored. Don't know what a good estimate is for DVD-R medium.

One option for long-term storage is LTO (linear tape open). Occasionally see some LTO-4 system going for an attractive price and have considered picking one up as a backup to the backup. I've got my main 8TB NAS unit backed up (mirrored) to an identical 8TB NAS unit that normally stays off. They are both RAID-5. The probability of them both going south is nil. However, as they always say, you can never have too many backups, and LTO is a very attractive option. Very robust storage medium too (much better than DVD-R). The only negative is that it is linear access as opposed to non-linear access that you get with hard disk, so you don't want to be regularly trying to extract things off of them.
I suppose we'll eventually move to this:

DNA could store all of the world's data in one room | Science | AAAS

:~)> JT

p.s. Did you get my PM tpad?

p.s.s. actually those discs are DVD+R DL Memorex branded media that are Ritek D01.

Last edited by Jerry Tubb; 11th March 2017 at 08:30 PM..
Old 11th March 2017
  #76
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Didn't realize that it was there. Will check it out.
Old 18th March 2017
  #77
Lek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
No it was kinda the other way around.

eMagic stopped further development of WAveBurner Pro 2.2.1, like adding & fixing ISRC functionality, when they were negotiating with Apple.

Apple's version was broken for a couple years, until they fixed most of the issues w V.1.6.1, except for broken DDP export, then they killed it.

Somewhere in that time period 2005-6 I switched to Sonic Studio PMCD & soundBlade, which sounds much better than WB, and never looked back.

Many of us full time MEs like sBlade because its' workflow makes sense, it sounds great, and we're not very plug-dependent, as most of us use outboard hardware for mastering.

Best, JT
Jerry, Thor, and whoever else - if you could give some advice here:

Is it merely the playback engine which sounds better in soundblade or does the software result in better sounding files if one uses any kind of digital editing due to the way it performs calculations (compared to other software)? I will have already done all processing coming from my tape machine (1/4" ATR102) through analog hardware, so I won't be sending it back out to analog (where better playback sound would be beneficial). I may do some minor volume adjustments and there is a possibility of using a limiter (though probably not). This will be primarily for arranging tracks, adding cd info, etc.

Even soundblade themselves claim the software simply sounds better - again is this in merely playback or also when editing and in the resultant final files?

Thanks.

Last edited by Lek; 18th March 2017 at 08:56 AM..
Old 18th March 2017
  #78
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Adebar's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lek View Post
Even soundblade themselves claim the software simply sounds better - again is this in merely playback or also when editing and in the resultant final files?

Thanks.
It is both. If you just play back a soundfile there is nothing done with it and the better sound just comes from the audio engine.

When it come to editing just one example. The crossfades and fades in soundBlade sound just right. A big difference to others like Protools where you often have to trim and trim until its ok. In soundBlade trimming is fast and sounds good.
Old 18th March 2017
  #79
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Justin P.'s Avatar
 

FWIW, WaveLab is currently 40% off the normal price:

https://www.steinberg.net/en/landing...o_9_offer.html

The offer is also valid towards upgrades as old as WaveLab 6 and runs through March 20th.
Old 18th March 2017
  #80
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Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lek View Post
Jerry, Thor, and whoever else - if you could give some advice here:

Is it merely the playback engine which sounds better in soundblade or does the software result in better sounding files if one uses any kind of digital editing due to the way it performs calculations (compared to other software)? I will have already done all processing coming from my tape machine (1/4" ATR102) through analog hardware, so I won't be sending it back out to analog (where better playback sound would be beneficial). I may do some minor volume adjustments and there is a possibility of using a limiter (though probably not). This will be primarily for arranging tracks, adding cd info, etc.

Even soundblade themselves claim the software simply sounds better - again is this in merely playback or also when editing and in the resultant final files?

Thanks.
soundBlade does sound great, in the transparent way that it should.

I was startled by the difference between it and WaveBurner about 10 years ago.

soundBlade had More detail, depth, dimension, etc.

It turns out much of the difference was what was lacking in WaveBurner (Apple), the bit-bug issue.

But I do notice the Sonic quality of soundBlade every day while I'm working.

Good, better, best... those are relative terms.

I do notice that it sounds "better" than Pro Tools as well, even outputting through the same hardware.

Is it sonically better than Brand X DAW software?

Only your ears can decide.

Best, JT
Old 18th March 2017
  #81
Lek
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Lek's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
soundBlade does sound great, in the transparent way that it should.

I was startled by the difference between it and WaveBurner about 10 years ago.

soundBlade had More detail, depth, dimension, etc.

It turns out much of the difference was what was lacking in WaveBurner (Apple), the bit-bug issue.

But I do notice the Sonic quality of soundBlade every day while I'm working.

Good, better, best... those are relative terms.

I do notice that it sounds "better" than Pro Tools as well, even outputting through the same hardware.

Is it sonically better than Brand X DAW software?

Only your ears can decide.

Best, JT
To all who answered, thanks!
Old 19th March 2017
  #82
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illynoise's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin P. View Post
FWIW, WaveLab is currently 40% off the normal price:

https://www.steinberg.net/en/landing...o_9_offer.html

The offer is also valid towards upgrades as old as WaveLab 6 and runs through March 20th.
man, you are awesome....I have a full version of wavelab and I just upgraded my wavelab elements 7 for 287$. Now two full versions, one for the studio and one for the house. Thanks for that information!
Old 20th March 2017
  #83
Gear Head
 

+1 vote for studio one it works fantastic for mastering.
Old 26th March 2017
  #84
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Ok so I see the update for soundBlade 2.3 is imminent. First update in 4 years and of course it's a paid one. How about fixing the existing bugs in version 2.2?

Another bug I've discovered is the 'multiple export' feature. If you have 16bit dither activated and 16bit selected as the main file's word length and then check 24/44 as one of the multiple exports, it gives you a 16bit file with 8 blank bits in a 24bit container. Good job soundBlade!
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