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Goodbye Waveburner, hello...? DAW Software
Old 10th January 2017
  #31
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Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattGray View Post
I do wonder though... if anyone has signed up to the sB support plan whether they're receiving exclusive builds with bug fixes that the general userbase is not getting. @Jerry Tubb are you privy to this information?
Hey Matt! No I'm not a support subscriber, or privy to any secret insider information from Sonic :~)>

But I wouldn't be surprised if they offered specific versions of sB HD to address any problems that users might have. Cannot confirm nor deny.

I use a super stable "vintage" version of soundBlade HD 2.1 to catch and assemble, and the latest version of sB HD 2.2 to pitch, when I'm not using PT HD to pitch.

Used it all day yesterday on a long attended double LP remaster session, no crashes, freezes or bugs.

Best, JT
Old 13th February 2017
  #32
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Slug1's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
Btw I'm still using Sonic soundBlade HD 2 all day every day, rarely hangs or crashes, and it Does sound great.

Sonic is older than Pro Tools actually, I think Digi's Sound Designer started about the same time, mid 80s.

But we've discussed this to infinity.

It comes w a learning curve, may require a few workarounds, and ~might~ work w your fave plug-ins.

Still many top MEs continue to use soundBlade today.

Just Sayin...

Best, JT
Jerry, I'm sure you've mentioned it somewhere in some thread at some point, but what are the specs of the system that you've used Sonic on? Have you used it across different updated Mac OS's? Weird it works so seamlessly for you, but others have complaints. I demoed it and I got crashes with some of my plugins, so moved on to other DAWs. Would be great to know what kind of computer(s) you are and have run it on. Thanks dude!
Old 13th February 2017
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
Btw I'm still using Sonic soundBlade HD 2 all day every day, rarely hangs or crashes, and it Does sound great.

Sonic is older than Pro Tools actually, I think Digi's Sound Designer started about the same time, mid 80s.

But we've discussed this to infinity.

It comes w a learning curve, may require a few workarounds, and ~might~ work w your fave plug-ins.

Still many top MEs continue to use soundBlade today.

Just Sayin...

Best, JT
Jerry, I'm sure you've mentioned it somewhere in some thread at some point, but what are the specs of the system that you've used Sonic on? Have you used it across different updated Mac OS's? Weird it works so seamlessly for you, but others have complaints. I demoed it and I got crashes with some of my plugins, so moved on to other DAWs. Would be great to know what kind of computer(s) you are and have run it on. Thanks dude!
Yeah Sonic sB can be a little testy with plug-ins, I use a very short list of plugs in my sB workflow.

I haven't updated my capture DAW in years, no rush to do so, as they say "if it ain't broke..."

SB HD 2.1 on a Mac OSX Snow Leopard 10.6.8, original Mac Pro Intel tower, w/ 8GB, Lynx AES-16e card.

I've been using this rig for over a decade to capture, edit, format, bounce, burn, upload, etc.

IMHO The constant OS X updates, are mainly to churn users for cash flow, the fuel for the computer science & programmer culture.

I don't really need my DAW to appear and function like an iPhone or iPad! I love those devices and constantly use them like everyone else,

But when it comes to a DAW, I like it pure and simple.

My pitching DAW is a slightly newer Mac Pro Intel tower, 2009 iirc.

Pitch with PT HD 9 with a nice range of plugs, mainly for pre-analog repairs and surgical EQ.

The old Sonic NoNoise repair tools and newer RX Spectral repair tools live on this DAW.

I can also run Sonic sB HD 2.2 on this rig to pitch, and take advantage of its newer advanced NoNoise tools as needed.

But once again it's Mac OSX 10.6.8 w 8GB.

I'm not really a Luddite or curmudgeon, I might update this rig later this year to OSX Yosemite with PT HD 10-12, but on a new separate system drive.

When you've been mastering records for decades, it's about using what works quickly & effectively to get the job done, with the highest possible quality,

Not necessarily keeping up with the bleeding edge, chasing the dragon of latest App trends, which can be a bit of a carrot on a stick...

I started using DAW software back in the mid to late 80s, so my perspective is a little deeper and longer :~)>

Btw I'm not the only one using Sonic soundBlade HD for daily mastering tasks, there's a pretty good list of MEs; Gavin L, David Glasser, Dave Collins, both of the GS moderators Riccardo & Jay, and many others. I'm sure we all have our stories as to Why & How we use sB.

Best Regards, JT
Old 13th February 2017
  #34
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Slug1's Avatar
Great great Jerry. Much much appreciate the perspective. Respect!
Old 14th February 2017
  #35
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m_gant's Avatar
 

Wavelab does everything listed in the OP list.
Old 14th February 2017
  #36
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Pitching and catching in sB HD here. As mentioned, you sometimes have to do a little dance and swing a chicken over your head to avoid random crashes. IMHO, If you can work without extensive use of plugins, it's plenty stable enough. The only plugins I use are a meter, an occasional EQ, and a limiter now and then, everything else is done via outboard gear in the loop.

There is a "lite" version that will do much of what HD will do for a reduced price. And it's good to have a dedicated mastering DAW/environment to do the whole job, from processing, editing, noise removal, PQ coding all the way through to delivery and QC.

But it definitely has it's share of bugs, and an upgrade is long over due. There was an email to Sonic customers a few weeks ago announcing a forthcoming version, 2.3, but I haven't seen it.

Cheers,
Thor
Old 18th February 2017
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor View Post
Pitching and catching in sB HD here. As mentioned, you sometimes have to do a little dance and swing a chicken over your head to avoid random crashes. IMHO, If you can work without extensive use of plugins, it's plenty stable enough. The only plugins I use are a meter, an occasional EQ, and a limiter now and then, everything else is done via outboard gear in the loop.

There is a "lite" version that will do much of what HD will do for a reduced price. And it's good to have a dedicated mastering DAW/environment to do the whole job, from processing, editing, noise removal, PQ coding all the way through to delivery and QC.

But it definitely has it's share of bugs, and an upgrade is long over due. There was an email to Sonic customers a few weeks ago announcing a forthcoming version, 2.3, but I haven't seen it.

Cheers,
Thor
Great seeing you back on the forums Thor!

Jt
Old 18th February 2017
  #38
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illynoise's Avatar
 

Wavelab. No need for AU plugs for me. So many options it's mindblowing. PG is always on the Steinberg boards. It's not common to be able to converse with the software's author, but PG has always been very helpful and requests and support. I've never had an issue with DDP and CD plants. The output is excellent. Multi Monitor selection in program. It's so good. I too used Waveburner. Such a shame they quit supporting.
Old 18th February 2017
  #39
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I would go Reaper and Hofa.
Old 18th February 2017
  #40
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Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

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Apple should never bought Waveburner from eMagic!
It was a great app at eMagic, but when apple bought Logic from them, WB Pro came along as part of the deal.
Then Apple ruined it for a few years, the infamous Bit-Bug, then ignored it, finally fixed the bit-bug in the final version, then discontinued it.
So yes, I've spent years with WB, and switched to soundBlade in 2005-6, and been happy since!
JT
Old 18th February 2017
  #41
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illynoise's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
Apple should never bought Waveburner from eMagic!
It was a great app at eMagic, but when apple bought Logic from them, WB Pro came along as part of the deal.
Then Apple ruined it for a few years, the infamous Bit-Bug, then ignored it, finally fixed the bit-bug in the final version, then discontinued it.
So yes, I've spent years with WB, and switched to soundBlade in 2005-6, and been happy since!
JT
Didn't apple bring it back from the dead? I remember waveburner was a Separate program at one point, and then they brought it back. Agreed that Emagic was a great company, but Logic was $1000 also with the dongle.

Also just a little known fact that I discovered myself. If you do all of your mastering in Logic and use the markers section, you can export those markers as SD2 file track markers in other programs, making Logic sort of a mastering program.
Old 18th February 2017
  #42
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Some folks that appear to be doing some serious work with SB. I've never used, but it appears pretty expensive, and unstable...

WHY?
Old 18th February 2017
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m_gant View Post
Some folks that appear to be doing some serious work with SB. I've never used, but it appears pretty expensive, and unstable...

WHY?
Stable here on both of my systems. In the past there seemed to be a few very loud voices with really bad experiences, but lately they have been much less vocal. Possibly on another forum complaining about stability issues with their new choice of weapon.

In terms of pricing, it's dirt cheap compared with what it used to when it was first released in the late 1980s and even the mid-1990s. NoNoise at that stage was also north of 10 times the current pricing. I own all the option licenses and current value is roughly $3500. Silly just thinking about what that would have cost in the 1980s.

Pricing is roughly in line with similar current offerings, such as Pyramix Native Standard and SADiE Mastering Suite.
Old 18th February 2017
  #44
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Thor's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by m_gant View Post
Some folks that appear to be doing some serious work with SB. I've never used, but it appears pretty expensive, and unstable...

WHY?
Because it's pretty much the first and only mastering-specific DAW that all the others are based on/copied from. It integrates all the tools and functions needed for heavy duty editing, noise removal, and more, as part of the app itself. It defined 3 and 4 point editing for the PC clones to later copy. Lastly, as voodoo as it sounds, it actually sounds better than a lot of other software out there. I can't say why, bits are bits, but even the producers hear it when we go from another DAW to sB.

Expensive? Not at all considering what you get, and what it used to cost. It's pretty competitive if you compare it to SADiE, Sequioa, Pyramix. I know Wavelab is popular with some, although afaik it only does stereo, which is a non-starter for those of us working in surround.

Cheers,
Thor
Old 19th February 2017
  #45
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m_gant's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor View Post
Because it's pretty much the first and only mastering-specific DAW that all the others are based on/copied from. It integrates all the tools and functions needed for heavy duty editing, noise removal, and more, as part of the app itself. It defined 3 and 4 point editing for the PC clones to later copy. Lastly, as voodoo as it sounds, it actually sounds better than a lot of other software out there. I can't say why, bits are bits, but even the producers hear it when we go from another DAW to sB.

Expensive? Not at all considering what you get, and what it used to cost. It's pretty competitive if you compare it to SADiE, Sequioa, Pyramix. I know Wavelab is popular with some, although afaik it only does stereo, which is a non-starter for those of us working in surround.

Cheers,
Thor
Thanks guys, good to know. My early days were PC and sound forge (sonic foundry!)

I struggled when switching to a Mac 5 years ago. Now it's wavelab, which at times makes me want to revive my P4 tower with my Lynx PCI card and sound forge!
Old 19th February 2017
  #46
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Well, I'm still running wbPro v 2.1.1 under Mac OS 8.6 and it runs the same (good) as when I installed it back Nov 2001. The computer is a G3 333 that's 22 years old and it still runs as good as the day I set it up in 1995. Something to be said for the quality of legacy Apple hardware.

I've been using Sonic Studio ART for a while in a cheesegrader under OS-X 10.6.8 and it has never crashed or locked-up. Recently purchased SB HD v 2.2 but haven't done much with it yet because I'm still studying the manual. Thinking of upgrading the OS to 10.8.5 because other things I'm interested in won't run under Snow Leopard (that's "progress" for you!).

Good thing I found that JT-Thor user guide that was posted here a couple years ago, because I was getting a "little" lost trying to figure out how to basically make the software work just like Lagerfeldt. JT was right. Once you get the "hang" of it, the Sonic UI works just great!

ps - they haven't released v 2.3 yet because they probably have their hands full trying to fix the bugs in Amarra 4.
Old 20th February 2017
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpad View Post
Well, I'm still running wbPro v 2.1.1 under Mac OS 8.6 and it runs the same (good) as when I installed it back Nov 2001. The computer is a G3 333 that's 22 years old and it still runs as good as the day I set it up in 1995. Something to be said for the quality of legacy Apple hardware.

I've been using Sonic Studio ART for a while in a cheesegrader under OS-X 10.6.8 and it has never crashed or locked-up. Recently purchased SB HD v 2.2 but haven't done much with it yet because I'm still studying the manual. Thinking of upgrading the OS to 10.8.5 because other things I'm interested in won't run under Snow Leopard (that's "progress" for you!).

Good thing I found that JT-Thor user guide that was posted here a couple years ago, because I was getting a "little" lost trying to figure out how to basically make the software work just like Lagerfeldt. JT was right. Once you get the "hang" of it, the Sonic UI works just great!

ps - they haven't released v 2.3 yet because they probably have their hands full trying to fix the bugs in Amarra 4.
Yes! Loved WaveBurner Pro, from eMagic.

Post some pics in my Vintage DAW Museum thread.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/mast...aw-museum.html

Best, JT
Old 20th February 2017
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by illynoise View Post
Didn't apple bring it back from the dead? I remember waveburner was a Separate program at one point, and then they brought it back. Agreed that Emagic was a great company, but Logic was $1000 also with the dongle.

Also just a little known fact that I discovered myself. If you do all of your mastering in Logic and use the markers section, you can export those markers as SD2 file track markers in other programs, making Logic sort of a mastering program.
No it was kinda the other way around.

eMagic stopped further development of WAveBurner Pro 2.2.1, like adding & fixing ISRC functionality, when they were negotiating with Apple.

Apple's version was broken for a couple years, until they fixed most of the issues w V.1.6.1, except for broken DDP export, then they killed it.

Somewhere in that time period 2005-6 I switched to Sonic Studio PMCD & soundBlade, which sounds much better than WB, and never looked back.

Many of us full time MEs like sBlade because its' workflow makes sense, it sounds great, and we're not very plug-dependent, as most of us use outboard hardware for mastering.

Best, JT
Old 20th February 2017
  #49
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Originally installed WaveBurner (non pro version) in the late 90's. Don't remember the exact date, but liked it so much that I bought the pro version. Took a look in the old WB manual and see that I scribbled in their tech support telephone number: 530 477-1050. I'm sure that no one from Emagic answers today if you ring that number! I always thought that when Apple bought the company that they would inevitably screw things up, and I was right.

Also have an HP xw4600 Windows XP Pro config that I very recently setup with a real PlexWriter Premium drive, PlexTools software and CD Architect 5.2. Sort of mirrors the Mac G3 setup with wbPro and the Plexwriter 8/20 drive. Back when I heard that Plextor had discontinued their illustrious product line, hopped in the car and drove over to the Cambridge MicroCenter store and found 3 of them still sealed in the box. Got all 3 of them brand new for 70 bucks a piece!

I must be doing something "wrong" with the Sonic Studio software, because I don't seem to be having stability issues like other users. I've been running ART for nearly two years, and if it was going to crash, then I'm sure that it would have reared its ugly head by now. I suspect that other users have installed drivers or other software that are the major cause of the stability issues.
Old 20th February 2017
  #50
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thermos's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by m_gant View Post
Some folks that appear to be doing some serious work with SB. I've never used, but it appears pretty expensive, and unstable...

WHY?
It is expensive and unstable, but one can also do serious work with it if you know how to avoid the land mines. It's pretty telling that the most vocal advocates of its stability are still using 10.6.8. That's just not practical in today's world to use an OS that old unless one is running a separate computer just for mastering. The list of incompatible plugins seems to be growing by the day with soundblade for me.

Hoping 2.3 will squash some bugs but they've been talking about impending new versions for 2 years now. Meanwhile they've released 2 complete versions of Amarra since their last .1 update of soundblade.
Old 20th February 2017
  #51
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microwave's Avatar
Triumph works very well
Triumph | Audiofile
Highly recommended!
Old 20th February 2017
  #52
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SB is relatively inexpensive with respect to other pro mastering software, especially if you wait and buy it at the right time of year. Sequoia is around $4K a license and Pyramix with all of the mastering accoutrements goes for about the same price. I purchased SB for less than a quarter of that price and the UI is MUCH easier to deal with!

Wavelab I wouldn't even consider. Talk about stability issues! First off, you need to be running El Crapitan or later just to make it go. Then you're lucky if you can keep it going revision-to-revision. I know, because I've been following all of the screaming and yelling over on their support forum ever since they released v9 awhile ago, so DON'T waste my time by denying what I can plainly read over there. I get the impression that they are basically PC types that are creating the Mac version in some sort of development environment. "Button Pushers" is what I usually refer to this type of software development. The resultant software appears to have serious memory management issues, but you would have to get a real Mac OS-X software development engineer to validate that theory.

I don't recall anyone having major problems with SB under OS-X 10.8.5, which is what I'm drifting towards. It is the "Cook" versions of MAC OS-X, 10.9 and later, that are causing the problems. He (Cook) seems to have done a pretty good job of mauling OS-X ever since Jobs kicked-the-bucket. I wish the Apple board of directors would wake up and put someone in there that "has a clue".

As far as plugins go, I'm more oriented towards doing audio restoration than what you would call mastering and don't really need to use very many plugins. The few I would consider using are known to work ok with SB, so I'm all set in that department. Most plugins impress me as being junkware, anyway.

As to a WB replacement, I was always impressed with CD Architect as an equivalent (or better) application for track assembly and burning, so I have that alternative as noted above. Now that I have SB HD, I can of course not only burn a CD-R but also generate DDP, so I have more than one way of getting there.
Old 23rd February 2017
  #53
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I restored a 2005 WaveBurner Session from our archives last night, it came up perfectly in V1.6.1 !

From Verbatim DVD-R backup discs.

Ugly green interface and everything :~)>

I'll probably rebuild the master in soundBlade HD before creating a DDP master.

Best, JT
Old 23rd February 2017
  #54
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You're lucky that the DVD-R still works! I remember Johnathan Wyner over at M-Works once telling me that they got into DVD-R early on using that ancient Sonic system (forget the name), and that they found the DVD medium not to be very reliable. Similar to DAT -- they would play back fine umpty-ump times and then all of a sudden, they wouldn't play back at all. CD-R is a different story. If you use good quality discs and keep them away from sunlight and UV radiation, they typically will go for decades.
Old 24th February 2017
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpad View Post
You're lucky that the DVD-R still works! I remember Johnathan Wyner over at M-Works once telling me that they got into DVD-R early on using that ancient Sonic system (forget the name), and that they found the DVD medium not to be very reliable. Similar to DAT -- they would play back fine umpty-ump times and then all of a sudden, they wouldn't play back at all. CD-R is a different story. If you use good quality discs and keep them away from sunlight and UV radiation, they typically will go for decades.
Actually our archive of DVD-R discs has been quite reliable, as are the CD-Rs.

In both cases we went with Verbatim Blue Azo media upon the advice of Glenn Meadows.

All stored in climate controlled conditions.

But we use Toast to burn the DVD-R archives, not Sonic.

As we've all seen digital media; HDDs and USB sticks crash and burn, it's nice to have some hard copy optical media around from those years.

The disadvantage of burning DVD-R backups, is that it takes too much time :-)

Much quicker & cheaper to drop backups to a couple of HDDs, which is our current method.

We also have a few hundred DAT tapes from the 90s in our archives, both mix tapes and masters, it's rare that we need to access one of those, but it happens. Results are mixed (!) wrt playback of those, depending on the hardware.

I could babble on for pages about archiving digital files as we've been doing it since the late 80s.

Best, JT
Old 24th February 2017
  #56
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Good to know that DVD-R is reliable. They undoubtedbly have improved the technology since the early experience over a M-Works. I always thought they were an accident waiting to happen, and avoided them. DAT -- there's no disputing what they are all about!

Interesting to see the Azo dye recommendation from Glenn. Other GSers probably don't realize that he was -the- goto guy for CD-R related info back in the day (maybe still is today).

Over the years, my own experience with CD-R was that the green cyanine dye media wasn't as reliable on playback as the blue azo dye media. The blue dye apparently produces a sharper, stronger, image on playback, and I've always had much better luck playing back Verbatim AZO CD-Rs in a variety of playback transports than those made from cyanine and pthalocyanine [spelling?] dye. The only negative to AZO dye is sensitivity to UV because of the blue color, so you definitely want to keep them stored properly.

Library of Congress probably has the best information on data storage technology. They've found the Sun T10000 series of digital linear tape to be the most error-free storage medium, by several orders of magnitude in comparison to other ways. When you're storing petabytes of information like they regularly do, the BER makes a difference!
Old 25th February 2017
  #57
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Originally Posted by Deleted User View Post
In terms of pricing, it's dirt cheap compared with what it used to when it was first released in the late 1980s and even the mid-1990s. NoNoise at that stage was also north of 10 times the current pricing.
$40,000 (AUD) here, additional to the $40,000 for the base DAW (with hardware), running on a Mac Quadra and a $1,000 1GB hard drive.
Old 25th February 2017
  #58
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Yeah! I never could figure how anyone could afford those old systems. I guess you could say that early Sonic purchasers had bought the farm. Katz just has with those lautenspecher he recently purchased. It's back to franks and beans 3 times a day at the Katz residence for the next 10 years (Spam and eggs for Thanksgiving dinner).

The other expense venture was early CD-R burning. Checkout the uploaded pic. That's Ted smirking in front of Sterling's newly acquired CDR-90 system at the old Broadway facility. If I remember correctly, they had the first system around. That setup cost a "buck-or-two". I remember we used to go to AES convention and drool when we walked past those exhibits.
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Goodbye Waveburner, hello...?-gotham-cdr90.jpg  
Old 25th February 2017
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpad View Post
Yeah! I never could figure how anyone could afford those old systems. I guess you could say that early Sonic purchasers had bought the farm. Katz just has with those lautenspecher he recently purchased. It's back to franks and beans 3 times a day at the Katz residence for the next 10 years (Spam and eggs for Thanksgiving dinner).

The other expense venture was early CD-R burning. Checkout the uploaded pic. That's Ted smirking in front of Sterling's newly acquired CDR-90 system at the old Broadway facility. If I remember correctly, they had the first system around. That setup cost a "buck-or-two". I remember we used to go to AES convention and drool when we walked past those exhibits.
That pic should be in my Vintage DAW thread!
JT
Old 25th February 2017
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Dempsey View Post
$40,000 (AUD) here, additional to the $40,000 for the base DAW (with hardware), running on a Mac Quadra and a $1,000 1GB hard drive.
Is this Australian pricing for "Classic" or HD?

"Classic" was much more expensive than HD, especially since it had 6 options just for NoNoise, two options for SRC, one for Reverb, one for TimeShift/PitchShift, two PQ options (standard and Expanded), and some I forget. Some options were dropped for HD while some were grouped together with others.

Abbey Road had one of the first Sonic Workstation + NoNoise systems in 1988, as did a few broadcasters, some spent considerably more than $80 000.
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