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Is mastering needed today? What's the point on this? Dynamics Plugins
Old 20th December 2016
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just_manu View Post
Yes. I suffer from some depression episodes. Wish it didn't happen but it is what it is. Of course I don't think it is something to reproach, quite mean by your part.

In fact, after that thread you talk about, I decided to make music part time only and have a more healthy life. Not because I'm bad at this, but because it is hard for me to manage this life style. But without promoting myself, I keep on getting requests for jobs, probably more than ever since I started on this. Anyway, I try my best and of course, don't try to hurt anybody, something that certain people here seem to like doing.

About 8 years as you say... I'm proud to say I'm making mixes that engineers who have been doing this for more than 20 years, start asking me for opinion. No ego here, but only to make you know the effort I've been putting into this, something you are discrediting.

Again, if you think this thread is silly, I don't think you have too much knowledge about audio engineering, or you are simply a hater. I guess it is the second one.
Hmmm... So, you thought that perhaps starting a thread talking about how MEs are obsolete because you have "mastered" this craft in the length of a long fart would not get you some attention?

Not a hater, but this thread seems to be more about you than any particular audio topic... I mean, if we're calling one another names, what do you think real MEs with tons of experience and more tons into great gear and rooms think if your pronouncement?

Also, I agree with the other poster... This thread is VERY déjà vu. Did you post a similar thread? I'd search through all of your posts; however, I've not enough interest to do a Sherlock on your GS history.
Old 20th December 2016
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
In theory you are correct but there is no fixed and absolute correlation between level and punchiness. A more skilled engineer could easily make something both louder _and_ punchier compared to a less skilled engineer. A more skilled engineer could make something sound more dynamic while having a higher RMS level than someone with less skills.

I've heard some rather flat and lifeless mixes that sounded (and measured) low in loudness and I've heard some much more dynamic and punchy sounding mixes/masters that were much louder.

If audio wasn't so subjective and situation and circumstances dependant, we would long be out of jobs and all mixing and mastering would be automated...

Alistair
A mastering engineer isn't a magician... He can only do great work if a mix is great... If some chucklehead empties out his whole plugin drawer on the 2 buss leaving the mix tickling the hairy boys of 0db there's not much for the me to do
Old 20th December 2016
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood View Post

Not a hater, but this thread seems to be more about you than any particular audio topic... I mean, if we're calling one another names, what do you think real MEs with tons of experience and more tons into great gear and rooms think if your pronouncement?
Ok, sorry. Next time I will try my thread to be more about the baker of my street.
Old 20th December 2016
  #124
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It's not unusual to find a mix needs to be changed after a mastering pass.
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Old 20th December 2016
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood View Post
A mastering engineer isn't a magician... He can only do great work if a mix is great... If some chucklehead empties out his whole plugin drawer on the 2 buss leaving the mix tickling the hairy boys of 0db there's not much for the me to do
What I find interesting is how some people are so keen on framing this in the most negative way possible. "some chucklehead empties out his whole plugin drawer on the 2 buss leaving the mix tickling the hairy boys of 0db". To me that just sounds like spite and hate.

Many of the top mixing engineers also deliver very loud (and sometimes heavily limited) mixes. Here is a quote from Andrew Scheps:

"My mixes are super, super loud, that I know. Just the nature of the way my mixes come together with the parallel compression, things like that, they always end up around the same level. What that level is, I don’t know. It’s too loud for most mastering engineers, they complain. I think I’m making their life easier because all they need to do is transfer it." - Andrew Scheps

There are many other examples of mix engineers saying similar things or ME's complaining about receiving super loud mixes yet it keeps happening including some of the world' top mixers so clearly the clients are not the ones complaining and clearly these guys are getting the results they want by working this way.

Are Andrew Scheps or these other top mixers "some chucklehead that empties out his whole plugin drawer on the 2 buss"?

Quote:
there's not much for the me to do
This seems to be at least part of the motivation for the way some ME's view this. I don't even think it is a conscious thing.

Alistair
Old 20th December 2016
  #126
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UnderTow, I guess you are the only one with a minimum of common sense in this thread. Thanks for coming

(I Edit) There have been also some nice guys around, so you guys too !!!
Old 20th December 2016
  #127
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Really loud somewhat distorted mixes can sound very wimpy when they are broadcast.
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Old 20th December 2016
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Really loud somewhat distorted mixes can sound very wimpy when they are broadcast.
Even when they are not...

Alistair
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Old 20th December 2016
  #129
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anyway, I don't mind making LOUD masters, till there's nothing living in the red erea ))) the challenge is to make it punchy/clean "as possible" ... I get Skrillex/The nest references along that which hit the max borders I've seen lately ....

my main advice would be, try to build a relation with a mastering_engineer overtime ... the ME will learn from what you asking, you'll learn from what the ME is giving back to you ... if it works out you'll get the vibe how the ME "needs" your mixes, the ME knows what you need/want ... 1+1 should be more then 3 ...

it's not a single shot to get to the max .... your competing to best mix guys, amazingly talented in arrangement/sound ITB , or deep pro's with decades of experience ... it's a hard Battle at the TOP and not an easy/preset one .. pick your battles wisely
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Old 20th December 2016
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
What I find interesting is how some people are so keen on framing this in the most negative way possible. "some chucklehead empties out his whole plugin drawer on the 2 buss leaving the mix tickling the hairy boys of 0db". To me that just sounds like spite and hate.

Many of the top mixing engineers also deliver very loud (and sometimes heavily limited) mixes. Here is a quote from Andrew Scheps:

"My mixes are super, super loud, that I know. Just the nature of the way my mixes come together with the parallel compression, things like that, they always end up around the same level. What that level is, I don’t know. It’s too loud for most mastering engineers, they complain. I think I’m making their life easier because all they need to do is transfer it." - Andrew Scheps

There are many other examples of mix engineers saying similar things or ME's complaining about receiving super loud mixes yet it keeps happening including some of the world' top mixers so clearly the clients are not the ones complaining and clearly these guys are getting the results they want by working this way.

Are Andrew Scheps or these other top mixers "some chucklehead that empties out his whole plugin drawer on the 2 buss"?



This seems to be at least part of the motivation for the way some ME's view this. I don't even think it is a conscious thing.

Alistair
Chucklehead sounds of hate and spite to ya, huh? Have you ever been allowed to leave the nursery or what? I called a guy silly here a week or so ago and you'd think I burned a cross on his lawn... Relax... Nobody is gonna stuff you in a locker through your computer screen...

Don't be obtuse... Clearly expended pros all the way down to young rappers making beats on a laptop insert plugins on their 2 busses... Had you not been grabbing your pearls and getting the vapors distracted by my "hate speech" you would've clearly understood that this wasn't what I was talking about... Even a little bit.

I was giving a hypothetical example... And I wasn't talking at all about anyone specifically... Jeeeeesus!

Is it so crazy to you that some guys who don't know what they're doing load down their 2 buss with buss to "mastering" software including things like ozone... Are you new here?

Load down your mix with a lot of compression and noise you can easily suck all dynamics AND headroom... You know headroom, right? It's that thing that's your mix's best friend and where a real ME can have some room to work.

Let me add this... When some goofball calls someone else a bully or accuses that person of hateful speech that goofball is absolutely engaging in the sort of behavior that he is accusing that guy of...

1. Grow up
2. Read the whole post/thread before you start spouting off
3. It's a bbs catering to music and sound... Ain't nobody here gonna take anyone else's lunch money through the Internet

Last edited by bgood; 20th December 2016 at 11:26 PM.. Reason: Ad
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Old 20th December 2016
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just_manu View Post
UnderTow, I guess you are the only one with a minimum of common sense in this thread. Thanks for coming

(I Edit) There have been also some nice guys around, so you guys too !!!
Dude stop. What is the deal? Common sense and being a nice guy means that an anonymous dude sticks up for you or otherwise trolls another anonymous user who disagreed with you?

The whole premise of this thread is patently ridiculous. You tell us that you mastered one of your tunes after you had an ME do it... You tell us did a better job... iPso facto: mastering is dead

post the two versions of the tune and the version that you originally sent to the ME.., speaking of that... Did you "master" the same stereo file that you sent the ME or did you just put more plugins on your 2 buss and and mix into that new chain? How much did you pay... Is it an over the web deal... Is it lander? Is it a reputable shop or just some anonymous internet dude with a cracked copy of ozone 4 and wave lab??

Belay all of that actually.,, it doesn't really matter.. Let's be generous and take your word for it... All that means is that you found a crappy ME... Or, it means that you got what you paid for. Either way none of this would suggest that mastering is dead or has been rendered useless.

Again... Deja vous
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Old 20th December 2016
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood View Post
Dude stop. What is the deal? Common sense and being a nice guy means that an anonymous dude sticks up for you or otherwise trolls another anonymous user who disagreed with you?

The whole premise of this thread is patently ridiculous. You tell us that you mastered one of your tunes after you had an ME do it... You tell us did a better job... iPso facto: mastering is dead

post the two versions of the tune and the version that you originally sent to the ME.., speaking of that... Did you "master" the same stereo file that you sent the ME or did you just put more plugins on your 2 buss and and mix into that new chain? How much did you pay... Is it an over the web deal... Is it lander? Is it a reputable shop or just some anonymous internet dude with a cracked copy of ozone 4 and wave lab??

Belay all of that actually.,, it doesn't really matter.. Let's be generous and take your word for it... All that means is that you found a crappy ME... Or, it means that you got what you paid for. Either way none of this would suggest that mastering is dead or has been rendered useless.

Again... Deja vous
Thanks a lot for taking your time to answer me.

Anyway, according to what you've written, there are two options. You haven't read the post, or you don't know how to read.

Now I know this forum is only to talk about thresholds and frequencies, the people in it don't usually suppoort other kind of topics quite well.

Anyway, let's finish this.

Regards
Old 21st December 2016
  #133
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Um... Have you reviewed what you titled this thread?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by just_manu View Post
Since I started making music 8 years ago I've always been doing everything by my own, but this year I decided to give some mastering engineers a go and see if I could only focus on songwriting, producing and mixing, and leaving mastering to the pros.

...90% of the times labels and artists chose my master over the mastering engineer's one (some of them not cheap ones btw)...

I came to the conclusion that it's simply because I had the chance to retweak my mixes all I needed to make them even more mastering compatible, while slamming my limiter on it, something they simply couldn't do.

So questions come to my mind...

- With so many tools and options we have nowadays at the mixing stage, how do we know what will be made at mastering that we are not able to do when mixing?

- What's the fine line that divides a very well crafted mix from it's mastered version?

- What's the line that tells you?... ok, this mix is ready for mastering.

- Is today mastering only a tool for those mixing engineers who are not able to print good enough mixes?

- Is mastering over rated or even useful in a "single song" music market, where albums are not common nowadays?

With this post I do not want to offend anyone. I have a deep respect for big mastering engineers which I've learnt a lot from. I only express something that as technology grows and music production stages get blured, brings a lot of confussion today.
No... I read it... Above is a slightly condensed version of your original post.

I did miss the part where you imply that you've used numerous MEs and that you're better than all of them..."

Otherwise... I read/understood why you wrote. I'll add that simply saying "I don't mean to offend..." Doesn't magically make why you say instantly inoffensive. You don't get a free fire mouth zone by saying the magic phrase.

Yah... You are right about one thing for sure... It totally is a good time to close this thread...

Merry Xmas y'all
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Old 21st December 2016
  #134
Marty christmas errbody!
Old 21st December 2016
  #135
Lives for gear
this thread's going well so far.
Old 21st December 2016
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scraggs View Post
this thread's going well so far.
Yeah, would this be a good time to bring up dither..?
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Old 21st December 2016
  #137
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Would Donald Trump use dither?
Old 21st December 2016
  #138
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcwave View Post
Would Donald Trump use dither?
I think donald trump IS dither.
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Old 21st December 2016
  #139
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood View Post
Chucklehead sounds of hate and spite to ya, huh? Have you ever been allowed to leave the nursery or what? I called a guy silly here a week or so ago and you'd think I burned a cross on his lawn... Relax... Nobody is gonna stuff you in a locker through your computer screen...

Don't be obtuse... Clearly expended pros all the way down to young rappers making beats on a laptop insert plugins on their 2 busses... Had you not been grabbing your pearls and getting the vapors distracted by my "hate speech" you would've clearly understood that this wasn't what I was talking about... Even a little bit.

I was giving a hypothetical example... And I wasn't talking at all about anyone specifically... Jeeeeesus!

Is it so crazy to you that some guys who don't know what they're doing load down their 2 buss with buss to "mastering" software including things like ozone... Are you new here?

Load down your mix with a lot of compression and noise you can easily suck all dynamics AND headroom... You know headroom, right? It's that thing that's your mix's best friend and where a real ME can have some room to work.

Let me add this... When some goofball calls someone else a bully or accuses that person of hateful speech that goofball is absolutely engaging in the sort of behavior that he is accusing that guy of...

1. Grow up
2. Read the whole post/thread before you start spouting off
3. It's a bbs catering to music and sound... Ain't nobody here gonna take anyone else's lunch money through the Internet

Ah yes, standard bgood behaviour: When your hate and negativity is pointed out, you pile on more hate and negativity. Seen it numerous times on this forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood View Post
Let's be generous
I'm not sure you understand what that means...

Anyway, taking into account that just_manu is not an native English speaker, having actually read his posts, the way I understood his question was as follows: If only working on singles rather than full albums and if working in music genres where the labels expect extremely loud masters, can better results be achieved by having full access to and tweaking the mix while feeding it straight into a mastering chain compared to delivering a mix to an ME and letting them achieving the necessary loudness.

The phrasing could certainly have been better but THAT is what generosity means: Assuming the best rather than the worst when reading.

Alistair
Old 21st December 2016
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Ah yes, standard bgood behaviour: When your hate and negativity is pointed out, you pile on more hate and negativity. Seen it numerous times on this forum.



I'm not sure you understand what that means...

Anyway, taking into account that just_manu is not an native English speaker, having actually read his posts, the way I understood his question was as follows: If only working on singles rather than full albums and if working in music genres where the labels expect extremely loud masters, can better results be achieved by having full access to and tweaking the mix while feeding it straight into a mastering chain compared to delivering a mix to an ME and letting them achieving the necessary loudness.

The phrasing could certainly have been better but THAT is what generosity means: Assuming the best rather than the worst when reading.

Alistair
Hmm... I feel as though you are bullying me and that you're also being abusive.

So.... Are you saying that I got the wrong idea because the OPs English is bad? Have you considered that his posts would be as ridiculous in his native tongue as well?

You've "actually read his posts" have you? I don't understand... Are you suggesting that I haven't? This hostile behavior towards me must have distracted you to such a degree that you didn't actually read what I wrote.

Before you step into the middle of something I'll suggest that you read a few of this OPs other threads. As you've apparently been stalking me I can only assume that you like to lurk... Take your time... I'll wait.

Truly though, I shall have to get a safe space if I'm to be attacked, bullied and intimated here on GS.
Old 21st December 2016
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Ah yes, standard bgood behaviour: When your hate and negativity is pointed out, you pile on more hate and negativity. Seen it numerous times on this forum.



I'm not sure you understand what that means...

Anyway, taking into account that just_manu is not an native English speaker, having actually read his posts, the way I understood his question was as follows: If only working on singles rather than full albums and if working in music genres where the labels expect extremely loud masters, can better results be achieved by having full access to and tweaking the mix while feeding it straight into a mastering chain compared to delivering a mix to an ME and letting them achieving the necessary loudness.

The phrasing could certainly have been better but THAT is what generosity means: Assuming the best rather than the worst when reading.

Alistair
I prefer to simply read what was written and not make assumptions at all.
Old 21st December 2016
  #142
Gear Addict
 

Well well....The topic starter is showing more and more that they have no clue on what they talk about and proves it over and over. For me it was enough to view their attached picture on second page. The one where Pro-L have something like -10dB of gain reduction if not more.

This person have no clue and behaves in a rough manner towards others here, what's this about? No man, go home and do your study.
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Old 21st December 2016
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by melopie View Post
Well well....The topic starter is showing more and more that they have no clue on what they talk about and proves it over and over. For me it was enough to view their attached picture on second page. The one where Pro-L have something like -10dB of gain reduction if not more.

This person have no clue and behaves in a rough manner towards others here, what's this about? No man, go home and do your study.
You know what it takes to get a -4 rms? One of the most useful techniques, use limiting and compression in stages, so the last limiter is only reducing like 0'5db. You've learnt a new lesson today The limiter you see is catching transients from a loop which my mix doesn't need at all. I'm really starting to think this forum is full of people who call themselves engineers but in the real world they have no f... clue of what they talk, and the real ones just simply don't show up.
Old 21st December 2016
  #144
Gear Addict
 

And even the last comment here gives it away that you have no clue about this. At all.
It doesn't matter if the end limiter only shoves 0.5dB if one further down the chains eats up 10 of it. I don't think you will learn anything new today, even though I gave you this information, since you clearly possess this infinite amount of brilliant knowledge that makes you the best fella ever. Keep at it.

What will it take before it becomes evident for you that you have no clue what you're doing? Just because you think you're right doesn't make it so.
I actually feel sorry for you.

Give us some examples.
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Old 21st December 2016
  #145
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Melopie. Looking forward learning from pros. Guess with u that won't be the case. Thanks for your comment anyway and have a nice holidays.

Last edited by just_manu; 21st December 2016 at 12:00 PM..
Old 21st December 2016
  #146
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Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 

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Post the material (your mix, your mastering of it and the ME's master) so everyone can hear and understand what you are talking about. You say it is GREAT but someone else may not have that same opinion. This thread reminds me of threads a couple of years ago where it was all done to create angst and upset everyone. The person who did this got banned from GS for eternity. Sometimes he comes back under different nom de plumes just to ruffle feathers.

I am sure the band or artist would understand and they would get FREE publicity.

Old 21st December 2016
  #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
Post the material (your mix, your mastering of it and the ME's master) so everyone can hear and understand what you are talking about. You say it is GREAT but someone else may not have that same opinion. This thread reminds me of threads a couple of years ago where it was all done to create angst and upset everyone. The person who did this got banned from GS for eternity. Sometimes he comes back under different nom de plumes just to ruffle feathers.

I am sure the band or artist would understand and they would get FREE publicity.

Another one into list of the guys who do not know how to read. Please post here any comment I had made saying my masters are GREAT. I can assure you I'm far more humble than a lot of you according to your words. You would see it within the first minute after meeting me.

Saying I should be banned from this forum because I've asked a few questions seems quite worrying to me.

U guys behave so defensive or afraid of something, it is so weird!
Old 21st December 2016
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just_manu View Post
Another one into list of the guys who do not know how to read. Please post here any comment I had made saying my masters are GREAT. I can assure you I'm far more humble than a lot of you according to your words. You would see it within the first minute after meeting me.

Saying I should be banned from this forum because I've asked a few questions seems quite worrying to me.

U guys behave so defensive or afraid of something, it is so weird!
You said your masters beat out the one from a pro mastering engineer but you will not let anyone hear what your mastering sounded like nor what the original recording sounded like. Seems highly specious to me.

I never said you would be banned just citing another poster's problems.

Basically many people are saying either put up or shut up!

FWIW
Old 21st December 2016
  #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmoothTone View Post
Yeah, would this be a good time to bring up dither..?
funny guy!
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Old 21st December 2016
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Ah yes, standard bgood behaviour: When your hate and negativity is pointed out, you pile on more hate and negativity. Seen it numerous times on this forum.



I'm not sure you understand what that means...

Anyway, taking into account that just_manu is not an native English speaker, having actually read his posts, the way I understood his question was as follows: If only working on singles rather than full albums and if working in music genres where the labels expect extremely loud masters, can better results be achieved by having full access to and tweaking the mix while feeding it straight into a mastering chain compared to delivering a mix to an ME and letting them achieving the necessary loudness.

The phrasing could certainly have been better but THAT is what generosity means: Assuming the best rather than the worst when reading.

Alistair
I'm being totally neutral but the OP started the thread by saying 90% of the time the labels liked his master better than the mastering engineer's. It would just be good to get the real context, which is his better master and the one he beat. Along with the mix sent to the ME and the one he tweaked to get it better. It was also stated that at least once he received mix tips from the ME that he used to then create his better master. And it could very well be that they like his masters better and some folks here might as well. But it's about the age old statement of 'put your money where your mouth is'. Or in this case, 'put your master where your typing is'. All of the bickering and name calling is meaningless. The field could move forward if that context were provided. But it just seems like the bickering is being perpetuated rather than providing context for people to listen to and evaluate.
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