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Beginners guide to A/D clipping
Old 29th July 2010
  #61
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Originally Posted by 24-96 Mastering View Post
Personally, I have the final gain stage in path while working / listening / making settings though... just bypass it when recording the analog pass.
Absolutely - I always monitor the sum total of all processing - both analog and digital. It's easy enough with most DAW apps these days as they allow you to loop back monitoring with any applied effects in real time. With my DAW app (SAWStudio) I don't have to bother with bypassing the post ADC digital processing while I am capturing from my analog chain as it doesn't automatically get written to the file unless you change the default settings.

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 29th July 2010
  #62
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Originally Posted by masterminder View Post
that seems to be the usual lame excuse on this forum [blaming the client for not knowing how to do your job].

basically, lack of personal integrity or a sense of pride in work.

and wilingness to be a prostitute.
You are hilarious.

Quote:
hacks, maybe. not the real deal.
Successful artists touring the world. I doubt you are.

Alistair
Old 29th July 2010
  #63
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Originally Posted by masterminder View Post
everybody knows.
Yep.
Everybody knows you're high....now!
Old 29th July 2010
  #64
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Originally Posted by masterminder View Post
the forum really is widely regarded as b.s., and it appears to be going further downhill.
Why are you on it then?
Old 29th July 2010
  #65
jdg
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i just took last bite of a really good sandwich
Old 29th July 2010
  #66
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Originally Posted by jdg View Post
i just took last bite of a really good sandwich
I just had a really good pizza!
Old 29th July 2010
  #67
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there was another half sandwich i didn't know about!
Old 29th July 2010
  #68
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Originally Posted by jdg View Post
there was another half sandwich i didn't know about!
Well....I ate all my pizza but I'm off to the kerrang awards to wash that bad boy down!dfegad
Old 29th July 2010
  #69
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Originally Posted by masterminder View Post
wtf are you trying to say? you are a successful artist, touring the world, clipping audio? that's nonsensical.
Can't you follow a simple exchange? Just read back. It is all there.

Quote:
you know, you don't have to respond to everything i post just because you dislike me. you seem to have a bit of a vendetta.
I respond to things that I can contribute to or that are blatantly false. In your case it tends to be the latter more than the former but it is not something personal.

Quote:
it is widely understood by rational professional people that there is a problem in the record industry with overloud mastering. you cannot argue against my position without appearing like a charlatan.
You are missing something essential in this whole discussion: Not only can clipping be a tool to make better sounding loud masters, it can also be a tool to make better sounding masters that are NOT overly loud!

Extremely short clipping (short in time I mean. Just taking out extremely short transients) can often be inaudible and certainly less audible than limiting or compressing.

Quote:
i'm not talking about getting your gearslutz "mastering forum" pals to cheer you on. that's meaningless.
If you think that is the point of my posts, you have not been paying attention.

Quote:
the forum really is widely regarded as b.s., and it appears to be going further downhill.
Mainly because there are people like you spreading misinformation and generally just messing up otherwise good threads.

Alistair
Old 30th July 2010
  #70
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Oh dear.....

I've done it again!
At least I didn't drink any of that "Relentless" gear!

Back on topic

I always check my cuts afterwards on a piece of s**t P4's internal, domestic, low quality converters, to check to see if there will be a recon problem on what is probably pretty close to what people would be playing music on these days.

No problem!

Whenever I've heard one of my cuts on the radio.

No problem!

iTunes release with administrator making the compressed audio from my CD master.

No problem!
Old 30th July 2010
  #71
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It would be interesting to have a 'flat eq/loudness' shootout, with a file sent around that was fairly well balanced in terms of frequency and dynamics ... everyone would aim for -8 at a certain section, and see what we get.

The sound of each chain and the subjective nature of the final RMS will make it harder to compare, but it might be interesting just the same.
Old 30th July 2010
  #72
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Experimenting clipping with prism AD-2 reveal to my ears better transients preservation but a discrete amount of distorsion !

Must try Lavry ? ........
Old 30th July 2010
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S_fireMastering View Post
Experimenting clipping with prism AD-2 reveal to my ears better transients preservation but a discrete amount of distorsion !

Must try Lavry ? ........
The Lavry will distort just as much as the Prism AD-2 if you hit it really hard.
The upside is that you can make up either 3db or 6db after the converter, which means you don't have to hit it so hard!

I really like the Prism AD-2 but you need a super well balanced mix (or be really good at EQ'ing) to be able to hit it to release volume, without making up some gain after.
Old 31st July 2010
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Table Of Tone View Post
The Lavry will distort just as much as the Prism AD-2 if you hit it really hard.
The upside is that you can make up either 3db or 6db after the converter, which means you don't have to hit it so hard!

I really like the Prism AD-2 but you need a super well balanced mix (or be really good at EQ'ing) to be able to hit it to release volume, without making up some gain after.
Table of Tone is right! The 3 and 6dB is only on the Lavry. The Prism doesn't have this feature.

Be aware that the 3/6 dB is also a SoftSat style gain which is a cool sound but it is a more heavy-handed sound

I use the Prism and Lavry AD's they both can certainly take the level but I usually stick with a cleaner make-up gain - like a Z-Sys EQ - or some such and that will give any increment of gain you want as opposed to fixed gain of the SoftSat!
Old 31st July 2010
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 24-96 Mastering View Post
Well yes. I usually have my final gain stage in the digital domain (be it limiting, clipping or whatever), so I don't usually clip the AD.
I also capture from analog without the last gain stage in the record path so that I can apply it on load out. Makes revisions (or alternmative masters for different formats) much easier since most then can be done without a full analog recall.
sure you have last stage of gain dig with a limiter, and yeah i dont clip A/D either, but i do use up all the clean gain i can without clipping, why would you leave a couple db of clean gain then use a limiter more then needed.

if i got say a mix really bottom heavy (its also eating my headroom because of this), now i eq it to clean some of that out,get it sounding better, now because of the new eq this gives me an extra 1/2db of headroom without clipping, im gonna turn my console inputs up 1/2db more now to use that extra 1/2 db of clean gain, this will let me use less of a limiter.

i constantly monitor my a/d metering while i work on a song to make sure im using all the clean gain available before clipping.

lets say the bridge of a song jumps out 1 db too loud then the rest of song, if i ran my console at unity then the a/d would clip in that part, not good, so i can turn my console input down 1db, now bridge section doesn't clip ..great ...but entire song is lower now so i gotta use more limiting to get it at the level i want... or i can (if its a file) turn that section down in PT , now its balanced before it reaches my console, my console can stay at unity, now i can use less limiting to get same overall level, if it was 1/2" id do it in two sections adjusting the input gain, same thing.

my point is id rather first get all the gain i can without clipping a/d even if its an extra 1/2db, that means 1/2 db less limiting, which will sound better to me.

i capture everything on the way in, i only edit in computer, this way once its in there, if im not around i dont have to worry if someone else has to edit or do production on one of my projects.

it doesnt take that long at all for me to recall a song from my notes, i dont use that much.

if after i've done an album and lets say one song is 1/2db or more too loud, instead of just lowering it in computer, i'd rather reprint it with a that much less limiting, its gonna sound better. i think the less done in computer it sounds better, but thats just me.
Old 31st July 2010
  #76
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Originally Posted by mrlouie View Post
i think the less done in computer it sounds better, but thats just me.
Me too!
Old 31st July 2010
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlouie View Post
sure you have last stage of gain dig with a limiter, and yeah i dont clip A/D either, but i do use up all the clean gain i can without clipping, why would you leave a couple db of clean gain then use a limiter more then needed.
Of course I use the A/D within it's "good range" too, but whether it's one or three dB of headroom is not a major concern to me. Not because I don't care, but because I believe there's no benefit to be had. The converter noise floor is significantly below the analog processor/signal noise anyway and most converters actually have higher distortion in the very high level range.

I remember caring about "the last few dBs" back when I used the L2 for A/D (also with my old DAD, though not as much), so maybe different converters act differently to that regard.

Quote:
if i got say a mix really bottom heavy (its also eating my headroom because of this), now i eq it to clean some of that out,get it sounding better, now because of the new eq this gives me an extra 1/2db of headroom without clipping, im gonna turn my console inputs up 1/2db more now to use that extra 1/2 db of clean gain, this will let me use less of a limiter.
Well, it would just mean you use less gain in digital, not really that you apply less limiting, since the relation between signal level and limiter threshold remains constant.

Quote:
i capture everything on the way in, i only edit in computer, this way once its in there, if im not around i dont have to worry if someone else has to edit or do production on one of my projects.
Good point. Makes sense to have projects in a fully final state with no EDL processing if relying on others to do production work. Could also be achieved by bouncing the EDL. I'll need to remember that one.

Quote:
it doesnt take that long at all for me to recall a song from my notes, i dont use that much.
if after i've done an album and lets say one song is 1/2db or more too loud, instead of just lowering it in computer, i'd rather reprint it with a that much less limiting, its gonna sound better.
With my work flow, I'd be lowering it in the computer, thereby reprinting it with less limiting.

Quote:
i think the less done in computer it sounds better, but thats just me.
With regards to processing, I mostly agree, but for aesthetic reasons. I simply know of no digital EQs/compressors that sound like the analog counterparts I like to use. Though I do use digital EQ pre the analog chain for surgical quite often.

But I don't think there's anything inherently flawed with digital and that when properly done, digital gain is by far the cleanest there is.
I challenge anyone to identify the difference that a digital 1, or even a 6 dB cut, then boost, makes in a 32bit DAW.

And that's probably what it boils down to. If I didn't trust digital gain to be transparent, then your work flow would be preferred, no doubt.
Old 31st July 2010
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey View Post
It would be interesting to have a 'flat eq/loudness' shootout, with a file sent around that was fairly well balanced in terms of frequency and dynamics ... everyone would aim for -8 at a certain section, and see what we get.

The sound of each chain and the subjective nature of the final RMS will make it harder to compare, but it might be interesting just the same.
That would indeed be interesting, I'd be interested to hear what other people do and how different gear/methodology sounds.

Though I'm not sure a 'shootout' would the best format, I think non-competitive exchange between participants might be more useful. Targeting an RMS value would be problematic too. For one thing, as you say, because of differing perception, but also because in my experience different methods of gaining loudness produce significantly higher RMS values than others at similar perceived loudness.
Old 31st July 2010
  #79
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Quote:
The upside is that you can make up either 3db or 6db after the converter, which means you don't have to hit it so hard!
Never tried Lavry before.
+3 and + 6 functions seems to be a "normal" brickwall digital limiter ......

or not?

Yes the prism distort in the high frequency area if you push it hard, my actual solution is to clip AD-2 a bit and taking the rest from digital brickwall or in some cases from analog limiting (before AD).

Thinking about an analog multiband to insert just before AD stage....
Old 31st July 2010
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S_fireMastering View Post
Never tried Lavry before.
+3 and + 6 functions seems to be a "normal" brickwall digital limiter ......

or not?
No, it's a 'soft saturation'. Sounds better than the Apogee 'soft clip' or Prism 'over killers' in that regard. Works occasionally with dense rock music, but I find other methods more transparent.
Old 31st July 2010
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey
It would be interesting to have a 'flat eq/loudness' shootout,
Quote:
Originally Posted by 24-96 mastering
That would indeed be interesting,

Gearslutz at its shining best!

Or you could just have a weiner-eating contest!
Old 31st July 2010
  #82
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Originally Posted by yoholyo View Post
Gearslutz at its shining best!

Or you could just have a weiner-eating contest!
Look mate!

We're all just investigating each other's different methods to find good sounding ways to satisfy these f*****g idiots that keep saying, "Sounds great...! Errr..... Can you get it any louder?"

Many records coming out right now are actually a little quieter than the stuff that was released in say, 2002!

I'm being serious!
Check it out for yourself.

We're all trying to pull back!
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Old 31st July 2010
  #83
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Originally Posted by Ben F View Post
No, it's a 'soft saturation'. Sounds better than the Apogee 'soft clip' or Prism 'over killers' in that regard. Works occasionally with dense rock music, but I find other methods more transparent.
The soft sat sounds way better on the MX version of the AD122.
Old 31st July 2010
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Table Of Tone View Post

We're all trying to pull back!
I hear you. I'm with you on that.
Old 31st July 2010
  #85
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Originally Posted by yoholyo View Post
I hear you. I'm with you on that.
I think that the point Lucey was trying to make in his EQ'less shootout is that we need to take things to the limit between ourselves to find out and share the best methods in getting most transparent cuts at the levels the clients will allow us to pull down to.

If the insane volume thing was our decision, then how comes the re-masters of vintage, back catalogue stuff isn't as loud?

I'll tell you.

It's because there isn't some p***k sitting on the sofa at the back of the studio pushing for more volume.

We can just concentrate on getting more resolution from the tapes by using better tape pre's N electronics etc.

Hopefully people will be able to hear even more of what actually went down on those sessions!
Old 1st August 2010
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yoholyo View Post
Gearslutz at its shining best!

Or you could just have a weiner-eating contest!
It's a service job. And records over -10 RMS are the daily reality for a pro.

My louder records sound great to me, as good as the latest in digital limiters or better using only clipping/L2 at -1.5 or less. I'm more than happy to demonstrate that in a comparison with other methods. Yet if you're not interested, that's easier for me.

Back to work! ...
Old 1st August 2010
  #87
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Originally Posted by Table Of Tone View Post
The soft sat sounds way better on the MX version of the AD122.
When did that version come out? Is MX marked somewhere on the chassis or on the screen on boot up?

Secondly, I like the Soft-Sat from time to time but in my work flow, it is too hard to quickly compare to other volume boosting methods at the same level so I tend not to use it.
Old 1st August 2010
  #88
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Originally Posted by Andy Krehm View Post
When did that version come out? Is MX marked somewhere on the chassis or on the screen on boot up?

Secondly, I like the Soft-Sat from time to time but in my work flow, it is too hard to quickly compare to other volume boosting methods at the same level so I tend not to use it.
It was a version that was only available by special order.
Apparently, Lavry don't have many MX modules left!

There is much confusion over what the actual differences are.

There was even a post by Lavry stating that there was an analogue limiter present in that version, but I later got an email from them stating that, that wasn't the case.
I was trouble shooting a unit at the time and they were explaining how to identify when the limiter started to kick in.
It didn't, because there was actually no analogue limiter present!

All I know is that I prefer the soft sat on the MX version to the soft sat standard MKIII.
I don't know if that's down to the soft sat itself or something else that's going on in the converter?

There is no difference in the appearance of the unit.
Boot up just shows the usual DB Tech MKII operating system.

The very new AD122's I've seen, have a different screen print on em though.
Lavry have changed their logo.

The Lavry AD122 MKIII (MX) is definitely my preferred ADC on 80% of material!

I normally won't use anything after it unless some idiot asks for even more level, in which case, the only thing that can follow that is a CubeTec LMax VPI, doing one more db.
Old 17th August 2010
  #89
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interesting thread.

So does this all only work if you have an analog piece of gear?

i mean, i primarily do everything ITB, and have a Presonus Firestudio as my main preamps/inputs going into my DAW. Do i need some sort of other piece of gear to try this A/D clipping? or can i route the singnal back into the Presonus and try to clip that going back in?

or am i stuck with just using plugin limiters/clippers ITB (like GClip)?
Old 17th August 2010
  #90
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This thread honestly makes my head spin. Hooray, clipping can sound better than limiting. Know what sounds even better than clipping? NOT CLIPPING!

This place needs less discussion about the "best" way to heed the lunatic demands unmusical idiot clients and more discussion about the best way to drill some sense into unmusical idiot clients.
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