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How to get those SUPER Loud Mixes?
Old 8th February 2007
  #151
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Gravity8058's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
Maybe we should start the Quietness Wars?

See who can cut the quietest record and still get it played on the radio.

Cheers JT
Hell yeah! Count me in.

I just mastered a project for a band called Ty Yo You'd On!
It's completely silent! No airplay yet.......








Old 8th February 2007
  #152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravity8058 View Post
Hell yeah! Count me in.

I just mastered a project for a band called Ty Yo You'd On!
It's completely silent! No airplay yet.......
Or what about the dynamic wars. Try and make the most dynamic mixes ever to get played on teh radio, so dynamic that even the radio compression doesnt damage the dynamics that much. Now thats ALOT!

Eck
Old 8th February 2007
  #153
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Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravity8058 View Post
Hell yeah! Count me in.
I just mastered a project for a band called Ty Yo You'd On!
heh Oh I got it - Tai-Yo-Yu-Den heh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravity8058 View Post
It's completely silent! No airplay yet.......
Goes in the Box Set with John Cage's 4:33.

JT
Old 8th February 2007
  #154
Airwindows
 
chrisj's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecktronic View Post
Or what about the dynamic wars. Try and make the most dynamic mixes ever to get played on teh radio, so dynamic that even the radio compression doesnt damage the dynamics that much. Now thats ALOT!
Eck
Good luck topping Fleetwood Mac's "The Chain" or Pink Floyd's "Another Brick In The Wall Pt 2"! :D

I'm serious- you would not believe how far the peaks are above RMS on those albums. For that matter, "Boston" has enormous peak energy and very low RMS, it just makes you think it's not because all the tones are so intense.

Even getting CLOSE to the peak energy of 'The Chain' or 'Another Brick' would impress the hell out of me. Most bands and mixers can't even produce crest factor that high with no compression and limiting at all... it's in the playing, before anything else, and in the tracking.
Old 8th February 2007
  #155
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Masterer's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by punisher View Post
I don't think he's kidding folks!!!!

No Joke.
Japanese jazz guitar duo.
Duet tracks between -20 to -17. "Band" tracks - 17 to -14 or so.

It'll never be played on american radio but it would sound pretty good if it was.
Old 8th February 2007
  #156
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisj View Post
Even getting CLOSE to the peak energy of 'The Chain' or 'Another Brick' would impress the hell out of me. Most bands and mixers can't even produce crest factor that high with no compression and limiting at all... it's in the playing, before anything else, and in the tracking.
Well yeah, playing is a major part but so also is volume automation for great dynamics.

Eck
Old 9th February 2007
  #157
Airwindows
 
chrisj's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterer View Post
You gonna tell your life story or you gonna tell me the name[s] of your plug-ins?
Jeez!
Good thing you're a developer and not a salesman.
http://store.kagi.com/cgi-bin/store....D=6FEGJ_LIVE&&

Old 9th February 2007
  #158
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Masterer's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Cool.
Might have to get some of those.

Congrats.
Old 9th February 2007
  #159
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Gravity8058's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
heh Oh I got it - Tai-Yo-Yu-Den heh



Goes in the Box Set with John Cage's 4:33.

JT
(That was just for you Jerry)

Actually, Cage's 4:33 exibites noise artifacts from the cutting lathe THUS,
Tie Oh's recording of "Ignore You Like a Hurricane" continues to rule the roost!


Old 9th February 2007
  #160
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rashadrm@hotmai's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pegleg View Post
Some people see being a musician and engineer as a conflict of interest, some see being an engineer and producer the same way...

The question still stands (directed mostly towards those who went 'on the attack' to the original poster) - if you're going to bitch about studios and engineers who do their own mastering, what are YOU doing to get artists / clients to understand WHAT you do, and WHY they'll get (perhaps) something better from you than any random mix engineer / studio rat? The way some of the responses read, it seems it's OUR duty to supply YOU with clientele, since YOU'RE the Mighty Mastering Engineers, and - with all due respect - that's total bulls**t.

Even some of my veteran recording clients don't really understand what 'Mastering' really means, or why it could be important. The history of mastering engineering, and the current practice among some mastering elite, don't help that... In this day - of indie releases and artist-supplied budgets - I find that if THEY don't understand why it's important, it's not going to happen...

And sending their mixes off to a guy in a little room somewhere, with his mystery boxes and wacky little console... I don't know...

OK -
I don't (as far as I know) know any of you on this forum.
I have sent a few, and know other engineers who have sent many, clients to 'dedicated' mastering houses in one of the biggest cities in the US. Several different mastering houses, a variety of projects, over many years. The number of clients and engineers who felt it was money well-spent were NOT the majority. NONE of them came back with something I couldn't have done better ITB at home... And that's no BS! In one case, I mastered them at the same time, and the clients liked mine better...

My point is - I have yet to experience a 'dedicated' mastering house/engineer, other than a BIG (Jensen/Ludwig/etc) one, that does the project as much or more justice than I can myself. So WHY should I send my client, and my client's MONEY to them, instead of doing it myself? Because these hacks happen to have dedicated their career to it, whereas I haven't? Because they have tuned rooms and were mentored? (Well, hell, I was mentored by guys who cut vinyl masters...)

Now, I have no doubt that somewhere, perhaps even on this forum, there's someone brilliant, and possibly unknown, who can kick some ass. It's isn't necessarily my life's goal to find them.

So, is it just a case of trolling for work from tracking and mixing engineers?


Its like the wizard of oz movie when the curtain is pulled back only to reveal some joker creating the illusion of greatness. The jig is up fellas. Live with it........ It has happened in every aspect of american culture from mom and pop stores (being victims of mcdonalds and burger king and walmart etc...) to the music industry (being victims of technology etc....). Now the final frontier, Mastering. if you find your money getting short, supplement, like some of the other M.E.'s who do artwork, cd packaging etc... to make ends meet........ Even Sterling has late night rates now. The really good M.E.'s will continue to do well based on thier work and experience, the newbies will grow with the new wave of newbie talent. For some though, the party's over, but it was a good run while it lasted........

To all of the aspiring newbies, get your L2's, Waves or whatever you can get your hands on, read bob katz book over and over till you understand it, listen to great sounding records and ask all of the questions you need to ask and make every dollar that you possibly can and use that to buy more gear as your knowledge increases, dont allow yourself to be duped into thinking that you cant become a very good M.E.
Old 9th February 2007
  #161
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robot gigante's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post

Its like the wizard of oz movie when the curtain is pulled back only to reveal some joker creating the illusion of greatness. The jig is up fellas. Live with it........ It has happened in every aspect of american culture from mom and pop stores to the music business. Now the final frontier, Mastering. if you find your money getting short, supplement, like some of the other M.E.'s who do artwork, cd packaging etc... to make ends meet........ Even Sterling has late night rates now. For some though, the party's over, but it was a good run while it lasted........
Mom and pop stores are run by some illusionist behind the curtain like in the Wizard of Oz? That's kind of spooky!

Geez, going to the mom and pop burger joint around the corner will never be the same again!
Old 9th February 2007
  #162
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robot gigante's Avatar
Sssh shhh!

Seriously, if you let everyone know about the chicken sacrifice trick, there'll be no secrets left! Is nothing sacred?!?

Just when we had them all thinking that a proper frequency balance and gain structure was the the trick.

Well at last you all know what the deal is with Bob Katz' curtains.

Old 9th February 2007
  #163
Gear Head
 
punisher's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterer View Post
No Joke.
Japanese jazz guitar duo.
Duet tracks between -20 to -17. "Band" tracks - 17 to -14 or so.

It'll never be played on american radio but it would sound pretty good if it was.
Bro,

Believe me I know you were serious.........
Old 9th February 2007
  #164
Quote:
Originally Posted by robot gigante View Post
Sssh shhh!

Seriously, if you let everyone know about the chicken sacrifice trick, there'll be no secrets left! Is nothing sacred?!?

Just when we had them all thinking that a proper frequency balance and gain structure was the the trick.

Well at last you all know what the deal is with Bob Katz' curtains.

Stop me if im being silly, but why are their speakers on the ground in the picture above?

Eck
Old 9th February 2007
  #165
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Paul Gold's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Bob lost his legs in a dither accident. That's why the console is so low.
Old 9th February 2007
  #166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Gold View Post
Bob lost his legs in a dither accident. That's why the console is so low.
He must have some trouble with bass rumbles.
Wheelchairs are meant to be pretty handy things ive heard.

Eck
Old 9th February 2007
  #167
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Unclenny's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
To all of the aspiring newbies, get your L2's, Waves or whatever you can get your hands on, read bob katz book over and over till you understand it, listen to great sounding records and ask all of the questions you need to ask and make every dollar that you possibly can and use that to buy more gear as your knowledge increases, dont allow yourself to be duped into thinking that you cant become a very good M.E.
I don't know.
I AM an aspiring newbie (with Waves) who has spent the last couple of years reading EVERYTHING I could lay my hands on.
I still think it takes years and ears to make a difference.
Old 9th February 2007
  #168
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I just had a radio station ask for a new master of a folk tune I did that was louder "is loud like Big And Rich"....... a folk tune people..... that is what has me worried. The rediculously loud is actually condusive to Nickelback and Pop-Punk, but asking me to re-master a 2 guitar folk tune to be super loud has me wondering what the $%^& people are listening for.
Old 9th February 2007
  #169
Quote:
Originally Posted by thesteve View Post
I just had a radio station ask for a new master of a folk tune I did that was louder "is loud like Big And Rich"....... a folk tune people..... that is what has me worried. The rediculously loud is actually condusive to Nickelback and Pop-Punk, but asking me to re-master a 2 guitar folk tune to be super loud has me wondering what the $%^& people are listening for.
LOL.
What was your RMS average for the louder parts. ie choruses etc. ?

Eck
Old 9th February 2007
  #170
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I think I have already mentioned the importance of close miking, there is a little secret involved here that needs to be told, when it comes to loudness.

Making loud mixes happens early in the recording process. Different mikes can handle different amounts of sound preassure. The farther away from the sound source that you place the mic, the worse signal-to-noise ratio you end up with. However, the early reflections created by the room will enhance the perception of the loudness, so normally you would place the mic a bit farther away to get a good overall sound. A dirty trick is to keep most of the tracks very dry and use one or a few sound sources that consume a lot of mix signal in a big room where early reflections will have a natural impact on the feeling of the whole mix. Then you use extremely close miking on the other instruments letting them distort. When you select the right mics for the job you end up with something called harmonic distortion, which reduces the peak level. Then you apply just a little early reflection/delay on the track followed by a little compression. So when the mix is later limited the whole mix will turn out very big and still seem natural.

I think these techniques such as side chaining, controlled mic distortion, early reflection/delay + compression, riding the volume faders/track editing and using a high quality multiband limiter will make the mix very loud. And as always, with great monitors and control room acoustics you can optimize all of these parameters to create an overall good sound quality as well. So keep in mind that getting a high overall loudness is a cumulative process where a lot of things contribute to the final loudness. Try to find tools and techniques that work in your studio and with your ears.
Old 9th February 2007
  #171
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Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
The really good M.E.'s will continue to do well based on thier work and experience, the newbies will grow with the new wave of newbie talent. For some though, the party's over, but it was a good run while it lasted........
I think there's room for all of us:

1. Mastering Engineers

2. Mix Engineers who also do mastering.

3. Project Studio engineers that D.I.Y. master.

4. Home Newbies that DIY master ITB.

5. Anyone else with a DAW.

There is so much mastering that needs to be done, so much music being created, all needing to be mastered in one sense or another, that there should be plenty of mastering work to go around.

FWIW, we're a "Mom & Pop" Mastering studio, and 2006 was our best year ever.

So DIY master to your hearts content, if you can't get it to sound right, then take it to a pro ME with great room, monitors, & gear, years of experience, and a long list of credits.

MTCW - JT
Old 9th February 2007
  #172
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Now the final frontier, Mastering. if you find your money getting short, supplement, like some of the other M.E.'s who do artwork, cd packaging etc... to make ends meet........ Even Sterling has late night rates now. The really good M.E.'s will continue to do well based on thier work and experience, the newbies will grow with the new wave of newbie talent. For some though, the party's over, but it was a good run while it lasted........

To all of the aspiring newbies, get your L2's, Waves or whatever you can get your hands on, read bob katz book over and over till you understand it, listen to great sounding records and ask all of the questions you need to ask and make every dollar that you possibly can and use that to buy more gear as your knowledge increases, dont allow yourself to be duped into thinking that you cant become a very good M.E.
Like Jerry I see plenty of room for all, and we also had the best year ever last year ... so I agree with you to some extent yet think you're being a little dramatic and absolute. If you have any doubt that your master could not be better, many of us below the top pricers and name brands notch can do 1/2 song samples for N/C. I see a sample request as a win/win because if I dont have time then I'm too busy already. And if I do have the time, they seldom fail to win the work and they start a conversation about your taste that we'd want to have anyway.

Theories and expectations from the past or from others experience are one thing, hearing it for yourself is another. The simple way to go is to hear music for yourself. Master it yourself all day long if you're so inclined. Some will also want to see if it can be significantly bettered and weigh the cost/benefit.

Bottom line, some people have a mixers ear, some have a mastering ear. A very few can do both (and probably on different days). Know yourself, be yourself, and max it out.
Old 9th February 2007
  #173
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robot gigante's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecktronic View Post
Stop me if im being silly, but why are their speakers on the ground in the picture above?

Eck
Those are his subwoofers. But if you look real hard you can see where the real mastering engineer is behind the curtains- everything else in the picture is just props.

OK seriously:

Quote:
Originally Posted by thesteve View Post
I just had a radio station ask for a new master of a folk tune I did that was louder "is loud like Big And Rich"....... a folk tune people..... that is what has me worried. The rediculously loud is actually condusive to Nickelback and Pop-Punk, but asking me to re-master a 2 guitar folk tune to be super loud has me wondering what the $%^& people are listening for.
If it's just 'loudness' they're after then maybe you could have them read this article by Bob Orban, who designed the radio processors they are probably using:

http://www.euphonicmasters.com/orban_article.php

Basically, your more dynamic master will sound better and louder than a slammed mix once they run it through their stuff.
Old 10th February 2007
  #174
Gear Addict
 
rashadrm@hotmai's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Tubb View Post
I think there's room for all of us:

1. Mastering Engineers

2. Mix Engineers who also do mastering.

3. Project Studio engineers that D.I.Y. master.

4. Home Newbies that DIY master ITB.

5. Anyone else with a DAW.

There is so much mastering that needs to be done, so much music being created, all needing to be mastered in one sense or another, that there should be plenty of mastering work to go around.

FWIW, we're a "Mom & Pop" Mastering studio, and 2006 was our best year ever.

So DIY master to your hearts content, if you can't get it to sound right, then take it to a pro ME with great room, monitors, & gear, years of experience, and a long list of credits.

MTCW - JT
Old 10th February 2007
  #175
Gear Addict
 
rashadrm@hotmai's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey View Post
Like Jerry I see plenty of room for all, and we also had the best year ever last year ... so I agree with you to some extent yet think you're being a little dramatic and absolute. If you have any doubt that your master could not be better, many of us below the top notch can do 1/2 song samples for N/C. I see a sample request as a win/win because if I dont have time, then I'm too busy already. And if I do have the time, they seldom fail to win the work, and they start a conversation about your taste that we'd want to have anyway.

Theories and expectations from the past or from others experience are one thing, hearing it for yourself is another. The simple way to go is to hear music for yourself. Master it yourself all day long if you're so inclined. Some will also want to see if it can be significantly bettered and weigh the cost/benefit.


Bottom line, some people have a mixers ear, some have a mastering ear. A very few can do both (and probably on different days). Know yourself, be yourself, and max it out.
The cut and dry response was geared a little more towards the negative replies on the thread, M.E.'s like yourself, Bob katz and Jerry Tubb etc... have been very helpful by giving good information without making people feel alienated for wanting to venture into mastering, and like you said, the smart ones who really care about the projects and thier clients will protect thier reputations and put the job into qualified hands when they know it will be better for the project.
Old 10th February 2007
  #176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fman View Post
aren't they subs? thus, on the ground?
Yes.
I was being silly.
Eck
Old 11th February 2007
  #177
lwr
Gear Addict
 

right ,

i mix in the box. how do i go about this clipping the a/d thing? would i run the mix out of my outputs into another set of inputs?
Old 11th February 2007
  #178
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by LongWave View Post
right ,

i mix in the box. how do i go about this clipping the a/d thing? would i run the mix out of my outputs into another set of inputs?

Why?
Old 11th February 2007
  #179
lwr
Gear Addict
 

umm,

people are talking about clipping the inputs of the a/d and i wanted to know how to do it?

why be a dick on this forum.
Old 11th February 2007
  #180
Moderator
 
Reptil's Avatar
 

Verified Member
"Why" seems a legit question to me.

what a nasty ass thread this has become. Just an observation.
Outta here
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