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Analog Expander
Old 19th January 2007
  #1
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Analog Expander

I'm looking for a good analog expander to enhance transients... any suggestions? What are you using?

Matt
Old 19th January 2007
  #2
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http://www.musicstorekoeln.de/is-bin...mpTo=OfferList

Never heard it in a Mastering context but every mixer I know has been raving about it for the last year.

It's not at all expensive.
Old 19th January 2007
  #3
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The Requisite L2M MKII is supposed to be good for this, tho I haven't used one myself (yet!).
Old 19th January 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F. Davis View Post
http://www.musicstorekoeln.de/is-bin...mpTo=OfferList

Never heard it in a Mastering context but every mixer I know has been raving about it for the last year.

It's not at all expensive.
Ah yes the SPL Transient Designer, it's been around a lot longer than a year. I doubt it would be suitable for mastering though.

Maybe all the mastering engineers are using digital for this task?

Matt
Old 19th January 2007
  #5
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I definitely prefer to do transient modification in the digital realm. But the expansion capabilities of the Requisite box are supposed to be very good.
Old 19th January 2007
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For enhancing transients, you can also get there with the right settings on a compressor... sometimes stupid settings on a compressor mixed in parallel... but maybe you're after other aspects of an expander's features too??

-dave
Old 19th January 2007
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsaff View Post
The Requisite L2M MKII is supposed to be good for this, tho I haven't used one myself (yet!).
Danny dropped the 'expansion' feature on the mkII model.


Greg Reierson
Rare From Mastering
Old 19th January 2007
  #8
if you look to a good analog but transparent expender (not like the Requisite )

look at the NTP 179-160 it's an expender/comp /lim built by NTP mostly for broadcast use, but also used in some mastering room



in my sense they're really underrated tools,
they're really good for invisible and delicate compression, and also for expending trantient
the limiting is quite invisible too
the only minus for me would be: no side chain, and a very light loss of high freq but what can be good sometimes

they are greatly built
and not as expensive as the requisite...too
but good luck too found a pair of modules (to the german danner size ) or a 179-170 (the 1U rack version)

what is nice too is that you can link 10 of them what is too much for a suround set up of course, but who can the more can the less

i remember once i used them for a compilation where some tracks had been over compressed with some multiband ****
and it had made some great things re giving dynamic life to the songs

Last edited by livingstone; 19th January 2007 at 09:26 PM.. Reason: more explanations and pics...
Old 20th January 2007
  #9
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Analog Expander

Do you want to expand before you hit tape & the L3, or after?
timmy!
Old 20th January 2007
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave-G View Post
For enhancing transients, you can also get there with the right settings on a compressor... sometimes stupid settings on a compressor mixed in parallel... but maybe you're after other aspects of an expander's features too??

-dave

BINGO!!!!!!!

Old 20th January 2007
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave-G View Post
For enhancing transients, you can also get there with the right settings on a compressor... sometimes stupid settings on a compressor mixed in parallel... but maybe you're after other aspects of an expander's features too??

-dave
Care to ellaborate further? please share an example of these settings with a compressor of your choice...

I'm very familiar with the affects of parallel compression which can help thicken or beef up a mix without killing the original transients... however I don't really feel that it "enhances" transients exactly. I prefer to think of it more as "preserving" transients. Perhaps I've just not found the best compressor for this task or the right settings perhaps??

Matt
Old 20th January 2007
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattGray View Post
Care to ellaborate further? please share an example of these settings with a compressor of your choice...

I'm very familiar with the affects of parallel compression which can help thicken or beef up a mix without killing the original transients... however I don't really feel that it "enhances" transients exactly. I prefer to think of it more as "preserving" transients. Perhaps I've just not found the best compressor for this task or the right settings perhaps??
I often use my Blue 230 for this, as it has a very flattering GR enevelope for the task. The basic idea is probably not a mystery; a slow enough attack that the transients get through clearly, and a long release (specific to the program) to keep the GR clamped down. Maybe look to the ratio and/or gain into threshold to modify the effect. The net result is that the transients are the only things that have an opportunity to poke through, and thus you actually end up with a GR envelope much like you'd expect to get from an expander.

In my mind, it's in the same neighborhood as looking to a compressor for a little added "punch". In a parallel, I get the effect going more extremely than would sound good on its own (very spiky), and blend it in a little.

I guess some compressors may be too smooth, and/or too limited in their parameters/control to get to settings that would do this. I know I can't get it out of my Eclair, and it's not as easy to make my STC-8 go "thwack", but many compressors can do this.

-dave
Old 20th January 2007
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave-G View Post
I often use my Blue 230 for this, as it has a very flattering GR enevelope for the task. The basic idea is probably not a mystery; a slow enough attack that the transients get through clearly, and a long release (specific to the program) to keep the GR clamped down. Maybe look to the ratio and/or gain into threshold to modify the effect. The net result is that the transients are the only things that have an opportunity to poke through, and thus you actually end up with a GR envelope much like you'd expect to get from an expander.

In my mind, it's in the same neighborhood as looking to a compressor for a little added "punch". In a parallel, I get the effect going more extremely than would sound good on its own (very spiky), and blend it in a little.

I guess some compressors may be too smooth, and/or too limited in their parameters/control to get to settings that would do this. I know I can't get it out of my Eclair, and it's not as easy to make my STC-8 go "thwack", but many compressors can do this.

-dave
Thanks Dave, I'll play around a bit more to see what I can come up with. I guess not many ME's are using traditional types of expansion then?

Matt
Old 21st January 2007
  #14
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It's basically called upward compression if I understand correctly, Bob Katz did a few great posts on this subject. I could be wrong though.
Old 21st January 2007
  #15
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Actually maybe a transient designer could be great on the paralleled track in mastering, could be worth a shot if you could borrow 1.
Old 21st January 2007
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsaff View Post
The Requisite L2M MKII is supposed to be good for this, tho I haven't used one myself (yet!).
This red unit is great, unfortunately I can't find any dealers in Europe...
Old 21st January 2007
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yareck View Post
This red unit is great, unfortunately I can't find any dealers in Europe...
There are none, contact Danny directly if you are interested.
The expansion was a feature of the MKI, the MKII has no expander.
Old 21st January 2007
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Hi Matt,

In the analog world the Requisite L2M is what I use, in the digital world the Weiss DS1 Mk2.

Buddy Miller is selling his Requisite L2M (not MKII) right now on ebay, he listed it at a great price. I've been watching it myself. I wish I knew he was going to sell this before he listed on evilbay.

Best regards and a happy new year to you Matt,
Larry
Old 21st January 2007
  #19
exept the expender feature what are the differences between the MK1, MK2, and MK3 that is now on order ?

Yareck, there are no requisite dealers in Europe because requisite products are not CE approved so no dealer can import them.
but you can order them directly as was saying Ricardo
Old 22nd January 2007
  #20
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Originally Posted by Silvertone View Post
Hi Matt,

In the analog world the Requisite L2M is what I use, in the digital world the Weiss DS1 Mk2.

Buddy Miller is selling his Requisite L2M (not MKII) right now on ebay, he listed it at a great price. I've been watching it myself. I wish I knew he was going to sell this before he listed on evilbay.

Best regards and a happy new year to you Matt,
Larry
Thanks Larry... it seems like the Mk1 Requisite L2M is the only analog box that has expansion. If it worked well in expansion mode, I wonder why Requisite dropped this feature on the newer models?

Matt
Old 22nd January 2007
  #21
No Matthew

as i was saying the NTP do the expansion feature too,
but it's a very complex/versatile box for it's size
you can found the manual at www.gyraf.dk
at the obscure schematic page
it's worth a look really

Last edited by livingstone; 22nd January 2007 at 07:32 AM.. Reason: detail
Old 22nd January 2007
  #22
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Originally Posted by livingstone View Post
No Matthew

as i was saying the NTP do the expansion feature too,
but it's a very complex/versatile box for it's size
you can found the manual at www.gyraf.dk
at the obscure schematic page
it's worth a look really
Sorry yes, thanks for bringing up that unit also... I guess it's not a common box in mastering rooms though as this is the first I've heard of it. The problem I would face is getting a unit in the studio to demo as I don't think they would be distributed in Australia.

Definitely worth further invstigation though & thanks for posting the pic it all helps.

Cheers,

Matt
Old 22nd January 2007
  #23
You're welcome Matt

there're no distributors because NTP don't built audio processing tool anymore they just do routing stuffs now, but they have made some very high quality audio stuffs used in danish and german broadcast with their very high quality standart it say by itself....

the 1rst generation of NTP compressors, the 179-120 was much more known in mastering room because they were used in Neumann Lathe transfer console as the Neumann U473, the 179-120 still in use in lot of room
the 179-160 and 170 were built more with brodcast use in mind, they're a little bit tricky to set up but once you understand how they work, they're great!!!

as i said they are very transparent, i let mine go , because i have an STC8 too and they're on the same kind of colour, the NTP is even more neutral.

about the expender fonction what is interesting is that you can use the expender and limiter in chain.
like this, you can really expend your signal (tuning the attack and release) and limit what is really too loud (they have very large headroom too just look at the manual spe )

they usually go 2nd hand around 600/700$ / module or 1600/2000$ racked

i just let mine go because i had a good trade for them,
and i think i'll try to found an other pair for the expander feature, the limiter is very nice too, extremly transparent
Old 24th January 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattGray View Post
Thanks Larry... it seems like the Mk1 Requisite L2M is the only analog box that has expansion. If it worked well in expansion mode, I wonder why Requisite dropped this feature on the newer models?

Matt
Hi Matt,

I didn't know Danny had dropped it on the MKII. As you can imagine the added expense may be a reason or the fact that he needed the real estate on the front panel. I also know a lot of ME's that use the Weiss more for this feature as you can get much more surgical. Danny's is opto so it's not as fast or surgical as the Weiss but it is musical.

I know in the MKII and now MKIII he moved the power supply out of the box as where it was placed originally caused one side to drift and you had to callibrate it about once a week. On mine he had moved the power supply internally and shielded around it differently then all the others he'd built before. Just my anal retentive ways, I couldn't live with it. That did the trick and she stays stable as all hell now. But I know it was a nightmare for him to find the room to do it, so after that he just moved the power supply out of the box. btw, I calibrate my system almost everyday anyway so I really could have lived with it. Like I said anal retentive (or is it just being a Virgo?).

I've not talked to Danny in a while so this might just be a good reason to call and say hello. I'll let you know what he says.
Old 24th January 2007
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertone View Post
Like I said anal retentive (or is it just being a Virgo?).
Definitely! typical of the sign heh
Old 25th January 2007
  #26
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Originally Posted by Riccardo View Post
Definitely! typical of the sign heh
You know Riccardo to a Virgo, "the glass is not half full nor is it half empty, it's just dirty!"

best regards,
Larry
Old 25th January 2007
  #27
heh heh
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