The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Power conditioner, which one?
Old 16th March 2016
  #31
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus Fresh View Post
ELectricaly savvy people... Can you tell me whether the more expensive Furman offers any improvements over the cheaper one (other than fancy lights etc)
Furman PL-PRO DMC E
vs
Furman PL-8 C E
specifically to do with reducing noise.
About to buy a few for the studio and would rather not pay more for lights etc!
Old post, but good question. Just asked Furman, and was told that the noise reducing circuitry for these two units, as well as the PL-PLUS C, is the same. These units feature more extensive noise filtering than their less expensive lines, so the PL-8 is as cheap as you'd want to go.

Having just read some hundreds of posts here on the subject, I'm still feeling clueless about whether any of these devices will fix the specific problems I'm experiencing. Looks like, one way or the other, I'll have to start throwing money at the problem to answer that question.

I share the same electric service with several other buildings, and when electric usage around me goes up, I start getting a hum in all my equipment. At some point, my power amps (several different brands) start physically humming.

I just read a post stating that this is harmonic distortion, which can't be fixed by one of these conditioners. Yet other people rave about how these devices got rid of hum.

Had no idea this would be such an involved topic.
Old 16th March 2016
  #32
Lives for gear
 
Callison's Avatar
i have just started using a Thor PS-10 and smartboard.. surge protection, pure sign wave, voltage regulation and isolated outs

PS10 - Smart Power Station | Power Conditioning

i have pretty up and down power out in the hills of western australia and this would have to be one of my significant purchases.. believe it or not my whole sound stage has changed/stablized.. impressive piece of kit!

check it out..
Old 16th March 2016
  #33
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuner View Post
Had no idea this would be such an involved topic.
Professionals in EMC/EMI/RFI conferences include many bald men. Is that because the subject involves much head scratching? No. The subject does create much scratching. But it also requires people with much experience using equipment and evaluating numbers.

If a solution actually does something useful, then a specification number for that improvement is clearly stated. View that citation for a 'Smart Power Station'. It obviously targets easily scammed consumers. No numbers. No anomalies are defined. It only claims a "Pure Sine Wave". So what does that mean?

This 'magic box' outputs square waves that are 1.66 times the rated AC voltage. With spikes up to 2.25 times rated voltage. It is also called a 'pure sine wave' output. Those square waves and spikes are nothing more than a sum of pure sine waves. They know their target market. Naive consumers willing to spend massively on magic boxes (using emotion and wild speculation) to solve 'strawman' anomalies.

All anomalies, properly solved, begin by first defining an anomaly - with numbers. Do you have harmonics, RFI, ground loops, noise, voltage variations, longitudinal mode currents, floating ground, or a bad power factor? Long before any problem is solved, first the anomaly is defined. All those are completely different. No 'magic box' address all.

Step one - define the defect - has not been done. Exactly what is common when making recommendations such as that 'Smart Power Station'. A subjective expression such as 'Pure Sine Wave' is bogus.

If an anomaly is not first defined, then the only other solution is called 'shotgunning'. Wildly buy expensive changes until something works. Using speculation and prayers; not knowledge.

Unfortunately only the fewest have even simple equipment to do this. For example, what appears on your oscilloscope? You are blind without simple test equipment.

View waveforms for what is even called a 'pure sine wave' UPS:
Tech Tip 03 -Duke Energy

Due to superior circuits inside electronics, this is clean and sufficient power. Your best solutions should already exist inside electronics. It is the result of a current incoming on one wire and outgoing on another.

Your equipment probably has three wires. That means three completely different and unrelated (independent) currents incoming and outgoing between each two wires. Other currents can also exist incoming on multiple wires and outgoing via other paths. All those currents create voltages not shown in Tech Tip 3. You must also discuss / investigate many potential anomalies.

A useful solution would discuss all that. Again, most 'magic boxes' are not marketed to educated consumers. Those consumers are easily identified. Their every recommendation has no numbers. Relevant anomalies will not be discussed. They do not even know of the so many completely different and independent currents that can exist simultaneously just on the power cord.

At a minimum, if you have not first identified the anomaly, then spending massively on 'hope and prayer' boxes happens. Furman and 'Smart Power Stations' can be that profitable even if protection circuits are nothing more than knots tied in internal wires.

Any series mode filter that may even begin to address the more common anomalies must be so massive as to be 10 kilograms plus. How much do 'recommended magic boxes' weigh? Another number that quickly identified scams.

First identify the anomaly. That requires extensive work and test equipment. Second is searching for solutions with numbers that define a solution for that specific anomaly. No 'magic' box exist for all anomalies. Plenty of "Smart' boxes are marketed with absolutely no specification numbers. Scams are that profitable and easy when eyes glaze over with each number.
Old 16th March 2016
  #34
Lives for gear
 
Callison's Avatar
So you would base everything on numbers? or on what you hear? Just asking

Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post
Professionals in EMC/EMI/RFI conferences include many bald men. Is that because the subject involves much head scratching? No. The subject does create much scratching. But it also requires people with much experience using equipment and evaluating numbers.

If a solution actually does something useful, then a specification number for that improvement is clearly stated. View that citation for a 'Smart Power Station'. It obviously targets easily scammed consumers. No numbers. No anomalies are defined. It only claims a "Pure Sine Wave". So what does that mean?

This 'magic box' outputs square waves that are 1.66 times the rated AC voltage. With spikes up to 2.25 times rated voltage. It is also called a 'pure sine wave' output. Those square waves and spikes are nothing more than a sum of pure sine waves. They know their target market. Naive consumers willing to spend massively on magic boxes (using emotion and wild speculation) to solve 'strawman' anomalies.

All anomalies, properly solved, begin by first defining an anomaly - with numbers. Do you have harmonics, RFI, ground loops, noise, voltage variations, longitudinal mode currents, floating ground, or a bad power factor? Long before any problem is solved, first the anomaly is defined. All those are completely different. No 'magic box' address all.

Step one - define the defect - has not been done. Exactly what is common when making recommendations such as that 'Smart Power Station'. A subjective expression such as 'Pure Sine Wave' is bogus.

If an anomaly is not first defined, then the only other solution is called 'shotgunning'. Wildly buy expensive changes until something works. Using speculation and prayers; not knowledge.

Unfortunately only the fewest have even simple equipment to do this. For example, what appears on your oscilloscope? You are blind without simple test equipment.

View waveforms for what is even called a 'pure sine wave' UPS:
Tech Tip 03 -Duke Energy

Due to superior circuits inside electronics, this is clean and sufficient power. Your best solutions should already exist inside electronics. It is the result of a current incoming on one wire and outgoing on another.

Your equipment probably has three wires. That means three completely different and unrelated (independent) currents incoming and outgoing between each two wires. Other currents can also exist incoming on multiple wires and outgoing via other paths. All those currents create voltages not shown in Tech Tip 3. You must also discuss / investigate many potential anomalies.

A useful solution would discuss all that. Again, most 'magic boxes' are not marketed to educated consumers. Those consumers are easily identified. Their every recommendation has no numbers. Relevant anomalies will not be discussed. They do not even know of the so many completely different and independent currents that can exist simultaneously just on the power cord.

At a minimum, if you have not first identified the anomaly, then spending massively on 'hope and prayer' boxes happens. Furman and 'Smart Power Stations' can be that profitable even if protection circuits are nothing more than knots tied in internal wires.

Any series mode filter that may even begin to address the more common anomalies must be so massive as to be 10 kilograms plus. How much do 'recommended magic boxes' weigh? Another number that quickly identified scams.

First identify the anomaly. That requires extensive work and test equipment. Second is searching for solutions with numbers that define a solution for that specific anomaly. No 'magic' box exist for all anomalies. Plenty of "Smart' boxes are marketed with absolutely no specification numbers. Scams are that profitable and easy when eyes glaze over with each number.
Old 16th March 2016
  #35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Callison View Post
i have just started using a Thor PS-10 and smartboard.. surge protection, pure sign wave, voltage regulation and isolated outs

PS10 - Smart Power Station | Power Conditioning

i have pretty up and down power out in the hills of western australia and this would have to be one of my significant purchases.. believe it or not my whole sound stage has changed/stablized.. impressive piece of kit!

check it out..
This appears to be a motor driven buck-boost variac with filtering. We did the same thing for 30 years with the Stabiline 80Amp version of this that we bought as surplus for $100. It works well for stabilizing the line voltage, but does nothing about cleaning up the junk on the line. For that we used an HP 80Amp isolation transformer and a series of progressive LC filters. This stuff is not super expensive, but does a good job of smoothing things out.
About 10 years ago we replaced this system with a 100amp APC pure sine online battery system, kept the input Isolation transformer and added a balancing transformer on the output feeding the technical power in our facility. The big thing here is that we are isolated from the power from the street by the batteries. As a bonus we have about 40 minutes of power available if there is a blackout. We also have a Kohler 200a generator on the roof that switches over in about 3 seconds.
The only way I know that the power on the street is off is that my lights blink for a second before the generator comes on line.
Our power was really good before the battery system, but with the battery and the addition of the symmetrical power, the analog noise floor has dropped by about 6 dB. The real interesting thing is that the harmonic components of the noise are what dropped significantly so the perceived quality of the noise is much better. When we did the original install 30 years ago, we installed a manually salted ground rod for a very low earth resistance. I suspect over the years we have an increased resistance. At some point we will replace it with a chemical ground rod.
As always, YMMV.
All the best,
-mark
Old 16th March 2016
  #36
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Callison View Post
So you would base everything on numbers? or on what you hear?
What is heard is a symptom. Do not cure symptoms. What is heard can help locate the anomaly. For example, if noise only occurs after 5 PM (after everyone comes home), then locating those numbers is easier. The actual anomaly does not exist before five and does exist after five. What numbers demonstrate that characteristic? Now the anomaly has been identified.

The anomaly is not what is heard. Heard are only symptoms of that anomaly. Never cure symptoms. Always cure the actual problem. That means first identifying an anomaly that creates noise.

"Smart Power Station" does not claim to cure anything. Subjective claims are also one type of "outright lie". And legal. It is legal to lie constantly in sales brochures. It is illegal to lie with spec numbers.

A "Smart Power Station" has no numbers. All the symptoms of a scam. That does not say it is a scam. And does not say it does anything useful. No numbers are the symptoms of a scam.

Appreciate a major difference between an anomaly and symptoms. What is heard only says an anomaly exists. Nothing more.
Old 17th March 2016
  #37
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post
Professionals in EMC/EMI/RFI conferences include many bald men. Is that because the subject involves much head scratching? No. The subject does create much scratching. But it also requires people with much experience using equipment and evaluating numbers.
Thanks, westom, for helping me better understand the problem. But clearly, I'm not bald enough to fully grasp the intricacies. I'm a musician who pretends to be a recording engineer, who pretends to be an electrician.

But I'm maybe understanding why reviews for these products vary so widely – a particular technology may work well for one type of pollution, but do nothing for another. I don't think Furman, for example, is being intentionally dishonest, but they seem to be assuming that people who buy their pro-grade products have already determined what they need, i.e., voltage regulation, power factor correction, balanced power, etc.

As Mark and Callison both suggest, it seems that the "ultimate solution" – something that will fix every anomaly – is to regenerate a sine wave from scratch. And since the cost of true sine wave inverters has come way down in recent years, I'm thinking my best bet may be to skip directly to this solution. Does that make sense, from a technical standpoint?

In fact, for the budget minded, one could put together a modular system using an automotive battery and charger, and an inverter:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002LGEMOQ

I suppose one might still have problems with interactions between different devices in the studio, but, if I understand correctly, this would completely shield me from anomalies coming from the neighborhood, with the added benefit of protecting from brownouts, blackouts, and surges...
Old 17th March 2016
  #38
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuner View Post
I suppose one might still have problems with interactions between different devices in the studio, but, if I understand correctly, this would completely shield me from anomalies coming from the neighborhood, with the added benefit of protecting from brownouts, blackouts, and surges...
First, this waveform is also called a pure sine wave:
Tech Tip 03 -Duke Energy

There is no pure sine wave. All have distortion. A 'pure sine wave' must be defined with a number - ie %THD - ie how much distortion is still called a pure sine wave. 'Pure Sine Wave' devices never define how pure with a number. Because even that Tech Tip 03 -Duke Energy waveform is a pure sine wave output.

Second, complete isolation from the outside is impossible. That safety ground wire was defined previously as one of many conductors for potential noise. Best isolation already exists inside power supplies. How does a power supply work?

AC electricity is filtered, then converted to higher voltage DC. And filtered again. Then converted to well over 300 volt radio frequency spikes. Now all pure sine waves are 'dirtiest' possible. Galvanic isolation and more conversions create a low voltage DC. And more filtering. Galvanic isolation is best possible isolation from the outside. It must exist in every one of your electronics also for human safety.

What does that inverter do? Exact same thing already done inside each power supply. Only way to create any more isolation is to run all equipment from batteries that have no incoming AC or generator power. Converter that creates AC from those batteries will be dirtier than utility AC power. So where is this gain?

Again, what does a power supply do? It undoes any such cleaning. Creates dirty high voltage, high frequency radio wave spikes - just like that converter and inverter. And then used superior filters to 'clean' that dirtiest power.

Third, noise is probably not getting through all that filtering and galvanic isolation. It is getting through bypass channels such as an always necessary safety ground. A direct connection from the outside world into all electronics that must exist. It is getting in via signal devices that are not pure transverse mode signals. Somehow a different power source will solve a problem by doing only what is already done better in a power supply? Of course not.

Most who recommend solutions not only ignore numbers. They do not even know how a power supply works. Even silliness such as balanced power resounds. Obviously, what a power supply does completely eliminates and destroys any 'balanced' power. But that urban myth also lives on. Due to so many who recommend without learning how a power supply works. And, of course, the so many who ignore spec numbers.

What is this 'Pure Sine Wave'? Where is even one spec number to define it? See what that power supply does? It first converts a Pure Sine Wave into dirtiest possible power. And then cleans what is intentionally made 'dirtiest'. That 'dirtiest' always exists no matter how pure an incoming sine wave. But you just cannot convince people who know by ignoring numbers. A magic box must be better only because it uses the subjective and manipulated expression "Pure Sine Wave".

A fewer and valid reviews state why it is better. That means also citing each relevant specification number associated with that praise. No numbers is how junk science is created and why hearsay replaces technically honest reviews.

That Amazon inverter is only doing what is already done better inside power supplies. That inverter does not address so many other reasons (paths) for noise currents. However, if it does have an advantage, then a specific specification number is cited that defines that advantage.

I do not see each noise path first cited. And then a solution recommended. I see a magic box that will somehow cure all by forgetting same is already done better inside each power supply.
Old 18th March 2016
  #39
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post
...
What does that inverter do? Exact same thing already done inside each power supply. Only way to create any more isolation is to run all equipment from batteries that have no incoming AC or generator power.
Yes, it occurred to me that there'd still be a path to utility power as long as the battery charger was running. And running off battery banks would be the most expensive solution of all...

So I hear what you're saying – one must first be clear about the source of the noise before trying to fix it. One thing that's clear, though, is that the built-in filtering and shielding in virtually all my devices is not sufficient to protect them from whatever conditions they're encountering here. I've already tried isolating the ground circuitry in the building, to no avail. Next step is to ascertain whether the hum is transmitting through the air, which of course would also bypass any power supply filtering. And the hunt continues...

But while I fully agree about the over-marketing of expensive "magic boxes" to gullible audiophiles, it seems an exaggeration to imply that none of them have proven benefit. I've read multiple reports of substantial noise floor reductions after installing a balanced AC system, for instance – reductions described with numbers. This may well be because of a reduction of airborne noise, rather than something sneaking through the power supply – I don't know. But when someone reports a six db noise reduction, we can safely assume it's not a placebo effect...

Last edited by tuner; 18th March 2016 at 09:53 PM..
Old 19th March 2016
  #40
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuner View Post
But while I fully agree about the over-marketing of expensive "magic boxes" to gullible audiophiles, it seems an exaggeration to imply that none of them have proven benefit.
I never said or implied that. For example, useful filters would exceed 10 kg. But many if not most who recommend solutions have no idea what that product does. A large number who recommend without spec numbers are gullible. The number is shockingly high (even during blackouts).

A UPS is a useful diagnostic tool. Power electronics from a UPS that is disconnected from AC mains. This is not a solution. How does that modify noise?

Another test. Operate equipment from a stand-alone UPS while connecting electronics safety ground directly to that wall receptacle safety ground.

Each test is about discovering what wires might be in the incoming or outgoing path of a 'noise' current. If connecting to a receptacle's safety ground restores noise, that does not mean safety ground is the noise source. That only says safety ground is part of a loop (and electrical circuit) that connects to a noise source.

Appreciate why head scratched will be normal and acceptable behavior.

For example A might connect to B. And B connect to C. C and A share another and common connection. Disconnect a wire between A and B. Anomaly disappears. Many would conclude that A or B was the noise source. Nope. C generated noise. Disconnecting a wire between A and B simply broken a circuit used by C to create system noise.
Old 19th March 2016
  #41
Lives for gear
 
Callison's Avatar
sooooooo, your answer is numbers? or neither? i can't tell..

Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post
What is heard is a symptom. Do not cure symptoms. What is heard can help locate the anomaly. For example, if noise only occurs after 5 PM (after everyone comes home), then locating those numbers is easier. The actual anomaly does not exist before five and does exist after five. What numbers demonstrate that characteristic? Now the anomaly has been identified.

The anomaly is not what is heard. Heard are only symptoms of that anomaly. Never cure symptoms. Always cure the actual problem. That means first identifying an anomaly that creates noise.

"Smart Power Station" does not claim to cure anything. Subjective claims are also one type of "outright lie". And legal. It is legal to lie constantly in sales brochures. It is illegal to lie with spec numbers.

A "Smart Power Station" has no numbers. All the symptoms of a scam. That does not say it is a scam. And does not say it does anything useful. No numbers are the symptoms of a scam.

Appreciate a major difference between an anomaly and symptoms. What is heard only says an anomaly exists. Nothing more.
Old 24th May 2016
  #42
Hey guys, I'm in the same boat looking for cleaning my power, haven't a great earth but can't change this, but voltage is stable.
Though I could ask in this thread to relaunche it and learn more about this topic.

I have 3 Furmans PL-8 CE (live in France) but still have some noise, even with great vovox sonorus audio cables connecting my whole chain.
I'm looking for another brand than Furman.

So I was looking at the Torus RM16 CE as I know some studios are using Torus RM and AVR series in USA, and though maybe some could talk about their experience with this brand.

Here's the links to both the products page:
Continental Europe Torus Power RM Series

Thanks for your help guys!
Old 24th May 2016
  #43
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by findingtheSound View Post
I have 3 Furmans PL-8 CE (live in France) but still have some noise, even with great vovox sonorus audio cables connecting my whole chain.
I'm looking for another brand than Furman.
Why demand a cure rather than first identify a defect? Where is that noise is coming from. What is that noise characteristics. Is it white noise, pink noise, or transients when another appliance powers on. Is it constant? Is it another type of noise typical of a ground loop? Noise can easily be due to tens of different reasons. A Furman and other equivalent magic box only address one or two. So you expect that magic box to cure eight other?

Most noise eliminated by a Furman or something equivalent is already suppose to be done better inside equipment. A series mode filter, that might reduce one type of noise on AC mains, must have filters so large that it weighs well over ten kilograms. Do you have that type of noise?

Listed were some tests necessary to better understand that noise and where it is coming from. First one spends inordinate time learning what is creating the problem. Only then can a solution later be recommended. Good diagnostic procedure first identifies a defect. Solutions are a later step in the process of solving a problem. Some techniques to first identify the problem have been suggested.
Old 24th May 2016
  #44
okay... I never said "magic box" anywhere, and wasn't writing here to upset you...

And was in fact waiting for users of this brand to give their real world experience.
I know Furman are just racked multi outputs with low quality filtering/protection, hence my question to get something useful as a reliable source for my whole studio and in my situation.

I've just said I did the logical steps to eliminate other possible noise issues like getting an electrician here who told about earth a little over what the norm is, and I can't solve that by getting it redone properly because of where I live.
The voltage is stable here and nothing else strange appeared when he looked at my electrical installation.
Plus all my equipment eq/comp are checked for micro noises which could come from tubes or other faulty parts by my tech.
Using Vovox Sonorus very high quality cables plus checked and no ground loops.
Using Furmans to filters what they can at their level.

So I did my work and searched and eliminated as much noise sources as I could, it's better but I still get some this classic constant noise floor, which is too high for my taste when pushing highs and limiting hard on some "modern EDM" mastering (and I know how my gears sounds when it's distorting that's something else), and I could use a bit more definition in the transient.
Plus I would like to add some real surge protection.

So this Torus unit seems to be what is needed to correct my identified problems with its big toroidal isolation and its high instantaneous current capability, plus the protection and real filtering. Btw this box weights 54 Kg...


I just wanted to know if there's some flaws or if it works properly and silently, from people actually using it.

On a side note, last year I tried vovox simple power cables with some friends, and just those stupid cables made the speakers react better, giving better lows definition and punch.
So I'm not a fool, and I know tweaking things on the powering side of gears can impact the sound a lot even in the last step between the wall and the gear; "sound" being the key word to me.
Experience will always surpass theory. I just want people's experiences about those Torus power conditionners.

Please stop using the word "magic", it's like treating peoples of kidos;
Thank you.
Old 24th May 2016
  #45
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by findingtheSound View Post
okay... I never said "magic box" anywhere, and wasn't writing here to upset you...
Nothing in my replies should ever suggest emotion. Those Furmans sell on a 'magic box' concept. It does something to electricity. So it must solve all electrical anomalies.

Does it cure frequency variation, EMC/EMI, open neutral, floating ground, harmonics, voltage variations, reverse polarity, RFI radiation, etc?

You said , "So I did my work and searched and eliminated as much noise sources as I could, it's better but I still get some this classic constant noise floor, ..." If you want assistance, then post what you did to identify which types of noise. That even means numbers.

Consider this. No matter how clean or dirty that AC, it is still filtered inside good electronics. Then converted to high voltage DC. Then filtered again. Then converted to radio frequency spikes that exceed 300 volts. Then superior filters, regulators, and galvanic isolation converts that to rock stable, DC voltages. How clean are those DC voltages? That (and not anything incoming on AC mains) determines noise. What good is all this Furman 'filtering' if it is routinely undone - to make dirtiest possible electricity. Then intentionally made 'dirtiest' possible electricity is 'cleaned' by superior circuits inside electronics.

Another gimmick is 'high quality' cables. What only matters is things also found even in cheap cables. Cables do not make noise. Never did. Cables can pickup noise when located adjacent to noise generators. Solution is to eliminate what is generating the noise. But again, that means identifying a defect BEFORE installing a solution.

Read numbers on a Furman. How much surge protection does it claim? How many joules will it absorb or block? Destructive surges can be tens or hundreds of thousands of joules. Now you have a number. Use that to find what actually does surge protection.

Posted previously were examples of how to identify a defect. Only then can a useful recommendation exist - because a defect is first identified.
Old 24th May 2016
  #46
Lives for gear
 
JP__'s Avatar
 

Verified Member
@ findingtheSound : you still did not explain in detail which kind of problems do you have. "High" noiseflloor (50hz buzzing?) may have different reasons. First is the limit of the gear you use. Are you sure it do goes better here?
Im no theoretic experts, but when it comes to power supplying you should acount all the details in my experiences. A perfect low resistante grounding is only possible if you build the studio from ground up, so even "audiophile" power cabling can help here for sure. Next is star grounding and the whole electric concept of your studio (phase used exclusvly for the studio gear?).
In my experience its a topic which is highly underrated in a lot of "modern" studios. This than occur a lot of problems from very subtle to obvious.
As far as I know there are two standard possibilities to clean up your power: a transformer against earth issues and DC which could let your PS buzz and filtering against HF noise and HD.
There a quite many furmans on the market, so no "this furman" around and they all do different things. To use those withoutnecessity can occur problems too.
Accurate filtering is a complex topic and to simply use one filter in front of all gears can even worsen things.
How is your cabling? Have you connected pin1 on both sides? Or are the vovox unshielded? If yes, that can occur a lot of problems too. Vovox cables have quite unique approach and I know quite some people who ditched them because of problems.

Westom is right, buying some more boxes hoping for magic improvement is wasted money.

Last edited by JP__; 25th May 2016 at 10:47 AM..
Old 25th May 2016
  #47
Gear Addict
 
StephenMarsh's Avatar
 

Verified Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuner View Post
I share the same electric service with several other buildings, and when electric usage around me goes up, I start getting a hum in all my equipment. At some point, my power amps (several different brands) start physically humming.
Sounds like what you need is voltage regulation. Those other places on the same service with yours are pulling down your voltage and your gear is probably working really hard to pull it back into regulation. Great way to heat your room - and kill your power supplies a lot faster, IMO you're wise to want to address it.

Furman makes a nice voltage regulator that's absolutely worth checking out - my studio uses one since about 9 years, made a world of difference when I was in a multi-tenant building and had the exact same issue you've mentioned
Old 25th May 2016
  #48
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by StephenMarsh View Post
Sounds like what you need is voltage regulation. Those other places on the same service with yours are pulling down your voltage and your gear is probably working really hard to pull it back into regulation. Great way to heat your room - and kill your power supplies a lot faster, IMO you're wise to want to address it.

Furman makes a nice voltage regulator that's absolutely worth checking out - my studio uses one since about 9 years, made a world of difference when I was in a multi-tenant building and had the exact same issue you've mentioned
Voltage drop was the first thing I checked for, but wasn't the problem. It turns out the cause of my hum is apparently the main power feed which runs through the ceiling of my studio. The wires apparently generate a large magnetic field when high current devices (heaters) are being used by my neighbors. An electric guitar placed close to the wires made it obvious where the noise was coming from.

Diagnosis was made more difficult by the fact that secondary magnetic fields were being induced or reflected in other metal objects in the studio. For some reason a piece of composite flooring sitting atop carpet was radiating or reflecting such a strong secondary field that my guitar cable would pick up the hum when touching it. They sometimes use aluminum in urethane floor coatings, so perhaps that was causing the flooring to be electrically active.

All in all, pretty freaky. I never realized that just regular AC wiring could generate such a large field (unless there's some anomaly in my wiring), but this field was generating hum in guitar pickups over 10 feet away, and was inducing hum in almost every device in my studio. I attempted to shield the wiring with sheet metal, but that didn't seem to help much, so my next step is to completely reroute the wiring.
Old 25th May 2016
  #49
Ok thanks westom and JP__; you're right I'm missing something(s) in my search...
I did star grounding too.
That's going too far for my limited knowledge and I have too much work right now to really dive into this, so I'll contact another electrician this time specialised in studio to find the exact cause(s) of my problem. It'll be faster and more accurate than trying to solve this through internet posts, making other peoples loosing their time ;-)
Old 30th April 2018
  #50
Here for the gear
I know it is old topic but I was interested into Power Conditioners so I research into what different units are having inside

Furman 8x2 -> Approximate 80 Euro


Furman RP-8 -> Approximate 100 Euro


Furman M-10 LX -> 180 Euro


Furman PL 8 E -> 330 Euro


Furman PL PRO DMC E -> 650 Euro


Furman Elite-15 PFi -> Approximate 650 Euro


Furman 1400 -> 1500 Euro


Furman P-2400 -> Approximate 3700 Euro


And some more consumer orientated units:

Belkin PF30 -> Used only Approximate 100 Euro


Panamax M7500-PRO -> Used only Approximate 200 Euro


Yulong Sabre P18 -> Approximate 300 Euro


Belkin PF50 -> Used only Approximate 300 Euro


Belkin PF60 -> Used only Approximate 300 Euro


Monster power hts 5100 -> Used only Approximate 350 Euro


Panamax 5400PM -> Approximate 550 Euro


Balanced Power Technologies BP-2+ -> Approximate 1300 Euro


POWERGRIP Powergrip YG-1 -> 1300 Euro


Torus Power TOT AVR -> Approximate 3000 Euro


Audioquest niagara 7000 power conditioner -> Approximate 8000 Euro


Let me see your opinion on above and which is best value
Old 7th August 2020
  #51
Lives for gear
 
Musician's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus Fresh View Post
ELectricaly savvy people... Can you tell me whether the more expensive Furman offers any improvements over the cheaper one (other than fancy lights etc)

Furman PL-PRO DMC E

vs

Furman PL-8 C E

specifically to do with reducing noise.

About to buy a few for the studio and would rather not pay more for lights etc!

Bump.
Looking for a founded answer.
Old 9th August 2020
  #52
Quote:
Originally Posted by tochnia View Post
I know it is old topic but I was interested into Power Conditioners so I research into what different units are having inside
I enjoy gut pics of anything, so a late thank you Tochnia for the gear porn. That may be a world record for quantity of chokes in one post..I’m wondering why this was/is in the mastering forum.

Last edited by Andrew Bacon; 9th August 2020 at 11:16 PM.. Reason: typo typo
Old 10th August 2020
  #53
I have been using couple of SURGEX SX-DS-154 for few years now and they are great for noise filtering and surge protection.
Old 10th August 2020
  #54
Lives for gear
 
EvilRoy's Avatar
 

2xSurgex 2120 used @ $95 ea., eBay.
Old 10th August 2020
  #55
Gear Head
 
OTRM's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilRoy View Post
2xSurgex 2120 used....
I looked at used rack power units, but then thought, hmmmm.....do I really want to buy a used one? Guess I was a bit skeptical as to the integrity of a used unit (was it maybe exposed to a power hit...?). So I opted for a new Furman PL-Plus DMC. Love that it has both voltage and amperage metering...
Old 10th August 2020
  #56
Lives for gear
 
EvilRoy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by OTRM View Post
I looked at used rack power units, but then thought, hmmmm.....do I really want to buy a used one? Guess I was a bit skeptical as to the integrity of a used unit (was it maybe exposed to a power hit...?). So I opted for a new Furman PL-Plus DMC. Love that it has both voltage and amperage metering...
Had a Furman (like everyone else) but read that the cheap ones aren’t effective after a while. These should last a lifetime.
Old 11th August 2020
  #57
Gear Head
 
OTRM's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilRoy View Post
....read that the cheap ones aren’t effective after a while....
What, aside from the unit taking a power hit, would cause one of these to become ineffective over time?
Old 11th August 2020
  #58
Here are a couple of pictires of the power system I installed at the studio here in Boston.
Fundamentally it is an isolated balanced power system with online double conversion UPS. The output of the generator transfer switch feeds an 80A HP isolation transformer. That feeds an APC 100A online UPS that generates the 240v that feeds the very fancy medical grade torroidal balancing transformer. The power is filtered at each point in the chain. Each studio has its own circuit and the machine room has four 30 amp circuits. All of this is referenced to a salted ground rod in the central machine room.
My point for posting this is that it doesn't cost a million dollars to do this right. I bought the ups with bad batteries on eBay for $250 and spent a couple hundred bucks on new batteries every 4 or 5 years. We had the Hewlett-Packard isolation Transformer from our previous setup and purchased the balancing Transformer as a custom product but it cost in the hundreds of dollars. Couple hundred bucks in boxes, fittings and Breakers (purchased off of eBay for $15 each...) and a half a day with the electrician to bless the install. All told I believe we were under $2,500 for the entire switch over.
Attached Thumbnails
Power conditioner, which one?-1_0809202120_hdr.jpg   Power conditioner, which one?-2_0809202119.jpg   Power conditioner, which one?-0_0809202119a.jpg  
Old 11th August 2020
  #59
Lives for gear
 
EvilRoy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by OTRM View Post
What, aside from the unit taking a power hit, would cause one of these to become ineffective over time?
https://recording.org/threads/lifesp...tectors.59149/
Old 11th August 2020
  #60
Lives for gear
 
MichaelDroste's Avatar
 

Surgex here
📝 Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 372 views: 42898
Avatar for fusionid
fusionid 1st January 2017
replies: 747 views: 55033
Avatar for basehead617
basehead617 9th August 2020
replies: 5081 views: 295750
Avatar for basehead617
basehead617 13 hours ago
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
🖨️ Show Printable Version
✉️ Email this Page
🔍 Search thread
🎙️ View mentioned gear
Forum Jump
Forum Jump