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I need a LOUDER MIX!!!
Old 26th August 2011
  #61
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The Listener's Avatar
Dynamic Spectrum Mapper can achieve LOUD in a rather good way pretty easy... but it is also easy to overdo it. Learn to use it, combine it moderately with other tools - get proper mastering experience, hehehe - and you can get loud with this tool (among others) very easily, without over-damaging the music.

I don't use it personally, yet, but I've seen it in action... and I like how Mr.Paul Frindle thinks and explains things around here, too.
Old 26th August 2011
  #62
MFA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Listener View Post
Dynamic Spectrum Mapper can achieve LOUD in a rather good way pretty easy... but it is also easy to overdo it. Learn to use it, combine it moderately with other tools - get proper mastering experience, hehehe - and you can get loud with this tool (among others) very easily, without over-damaging the music.

I don't use it personally, yet, but I've seen it in action... and I like how Mr.Paul Frindle thinks and explains things around here, too.
Yeah, I've seen that before, but I never liked software with a "capture" button promising to match one song to another.

But, there is a 21-day trial for the iLok, let's see! I'll report on this one.

[EDIT] Listening through the demos, do I hear *anything* that would sound better after being manipulated with DSM ? Either they have bad demos, or this thing just doesn't work, though the references look quite impressive. There are several videos, and what they basically show is that they can kinda neutralize a very strange setting of an EQ. This one really works quite well, but the damage they're trying to fix has been done artificially and will hardly happen in real life. Vocals: Worse after treatment. Buss compression: Worse after treatment. Latin Mix: Well, yes, probably sounds slightly better, but not like a release. Hmm.
Old 27th August 2011
  #63
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovenara View Post
try to have a great mix with optimum level instead,people can raise volume at their players if they wanna hear it loud
I agree but a client wont want to hear that. I usually print my mix and then use something to bring it up to a loudness that they will 99% of the time want and expect. Last thing you want is a client to leave your studio excited throw his cd in the car outside only to find it sounds weak in comparison to anything else wondering why did they spend all that time and money.

Excuses are just reasons to fail.Dont need any....
Old 29th August 2011
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daez View Post
I agree but a client wont want to hear that. I usually print my mix and then use something to bring it up to a loudness that they will 99% of the time want and expect. Last thing you want is a client to leave your studio excited throw his cd in the car outside only to find it sounds weak in comparison to anything else wondering why did they spend all that time and money.

Excuses are just reasons to fail.Dont need any....
Bingo!..there are expectations when you are getting paid to work on something...forget that and you are done.
Old 29th August 2011
  #65
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CDs sound so horrible these days. STOP DESTROYING THE MUSIC!
Old 29th August 2011
  #66
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mitch_the_bitch's Avatar
 

yes... most clients ARE dumb in terms of loudness! It IS a psycho-accoustic effect, that louder is perceived as better sounding (even if it isn't the case) at a first shot!

Did you maybe realize that nowadays on Ipods, Iphones, etc. the volume knob is limited to a certain gain stage because of health issues. I hate that fact.. I want to hear music as loud as I want. And of course how can you then compete with other products treated in loudness to the max?

I understand, that this isn't a good way.. and I understand it destroys dynamic, depth and clarity of a great mix. But there is no choice anymore. If you're not loud enough, you can't compete out there.

There are a few exceptions like classical and jazz maybe.. but otherwise...

oh and btw... I never achieved the appropriate loudness with only digital plugins... there might be a way.. but since I'm able to use hardware gain staging before I print, I'm now finally able to achieve the commercial loudness without cutting all transients at 0 db.
Old 29th August 2011
  #67
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Laurend's Avatar
 

It's easier to sell quantity than quality. Loudness can be measured by a dedicated unit. The quality unit remains to be found.
Old 30th August 2011
  #68
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Dr. Mordo's Avatar
 

One note that is back on topic (sorta). I think I have found a semi-valid reason to guiltlessly make something as loud as I can (which I have never even attempted before).

I just mixed/mastered an EP for a punk group. 3 songs will go on vinyl, one will go on a comp cd with a bunch of other bands. So, the vinyl tracks were very open with maybe 2ish db of compression on the main buss and no limiting at all. But I figure the comp track is gonna put on a cd with a bunch of other songs that will be crushed to death, and I doubt the indie label will spring for a mastering job on the whole project. So I'm smashing the crap out of it, but I want it to sound as good as possible, obviously. It's been pretty interesting.

After a hour or so of experimentation with multiple compressors and limiters and combinations thereof, I took a break and found this thread. So I tried the Maserati plug, and I have to say it's pretty amazing. Squashes the crap out of it but doesn't have as many artifacts as many other things I tried. -6 db effortlessly. I have no idea what's under the hood, but it's the first of those Waves Artist plugins that has been worth a damn to my ears.

I'm not suggesting that it's a substitute for a good mix or mastering engineer. But it's pretty impressive.
Old 30th August 2011
  #69
Gear Maniac
 

I've stuck to just lurking for a long time now, but this is insane. What kind of a guy acts this way?
Old 31st August 2011
  #70
Gear Maniac
 

O is a level playing field...everyone plays on the same field...those that are able to get their master to stand out are achieving the goal. Thse that dont need not complain...just learn how to do it better
Old 31st August 2011
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurend View Post
It's easier to sell quantity than quality. Loudness can be measured by a dedicated unit. The quality unit remains to be found.
With digital distribution being relatively simple for the end users why not have both versions released? The one that sounds 'competitive' and the one that sounds 'normal'? Achieve more sales and satisfied customers with a minimum effort.
Old 31st August 2011
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fuse View Post
With digital distribution being relatively simple for the end users why not have both versions released? The one that sounds 'competitive' and the one that sounds 'normal'? Achieve more sales and satisfied customers with a minimum effort.
This is the $500,000 question. And every time somebody asks it, no answer is given. Seems fall-down simple to me.
Old 31st August 2011
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LisaSmile View Post
O is a level playing field...everyone plays on the same field...those that are able to get their master to stand out are achieving the goal. Thse that dont need not complain...just learn how to do it better
What if a band on a major label wants to release a song with mass-appeal and high energy, yet also want cracking drum transients and an open unconstrained feel to the production? The current playing field prevents such a production from existing.

There are certain artistic choices that flat-out can not be made when dealing with this type of volume. Do we resign ourselves to only allowing those choices in home recording destined for YouTube and nothing else?
Old 1st September 2011
  #74
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheebs Goat View Post
What if a band on a major label wants to release a song with mass-appeal and high energy, yet also want cracking drum transients and an open unconstrained feel to the production? The current playing field prevents such a production from existing.

There are certain artistic choices that flat-out can not be made when dealing with this type of volume. Do we resign ourselves to only allowing those choices in home recording destined for YouTube and nothing else?
Well I would suggest that the band release a song with mass appeal and high energy with cracking drum transients...but first they'll have to find and ME that can do that for them...the limit is zero everyone has to work under that Cheebs...you can definitely release any kind of master you want.

I like loud..I think it works in pop and rock...I also think t easy easy to destroy something...it's not Ted Jensons fault that he can make a great sounding loud master and most others can;t..others should learn how to do it if that is what they want to achieve, but your example you can easily achieve what you want...release it as you see fit...don;t make it loud.
Old 1st September 2011
  #75
Gear Maniac
 

Don't make it too loud. It's horrible.
Old 1st September 2011
  #76
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Loudness impacts on the perception of the listener. And this perception is not standart!!! Depends of the being+personality of the person. As many have still big ego they like to be chocked because they have big wall of ego or the react with loudness war terms because they want pure dynamic. Putting of the ego, the music must be just right and true. No really care of loudness except the distorsion problem which are ugly.
The in between may be the right road. Not too loud, not too dynamic.
Old 1st September 2011
  #77
Gear Maniac
 

make it as loud as it needs to be..and move on already
Old 2nd September 2011
  #78
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuse View Post
With digital distribution being relatively simple for the end users why not have both versions released? The one that sounds 'competitive' and the one that sounds 'normal'? Achieve more sales and satisfied customers with a minimum effort.
+1. I would love to have this happen, the "competitive" version is for radio stations (because louder songs sound louder anyway even if it's clipped, and the radio is record labels' excuse for loudness war) and the normal version is for CDs. There are really no reason to buy the physical CDs if the mastering is so crappy, ruined by the loudness war.
Old 2nd September 2011
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LisaSmile View Post
make it as loud as it needs to be..and move on already
Who decides what is loud enough? How about present the consumer the choice of loudness and go from there?
Old 2nd September 2011
  #80
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuse View Post
Who decides what is loud enough? How about present the consumer the choice of loudness and go from there?
Well...YOU DECIDE...because that is YOUR job...passing the buck won;t get you hired back.

Some seem to have forgotten that there are a million ways to interpret what is the right way to make music...any aspect of it. The reason people hire you is because of the choices you make and your ability to commit to something. That is ultimately what separates the men from the boys isn;t it...not who's louder, but who's got the balls to commit.
Old 2nd September 2011
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LisaSmile View Post
Well...YOU DECIDE...because that is YOUR job...passing the buck won;t get you hired back.

Some seem to have forgotten that there are a million ways to interpret what is the right way to make music...any aspect of it. The reason people hire you is because of the choices you make and your ability to commit to something. That is ultimately what separates the men from the boys isn;t it...not who's louder, but who's got the balls to commit.
It can't simply be up to the producer to decide. If it was as you say, at least some number of major releases greater than zero wouldn't be pushed that hard.

Sure, the producer has the say on paper, but when the choice is crush and get hired again, or don't crush and don't get hired again... It's not much of a choice.


And for what it is worth, it doesn't take much balls to commit to doing exactly what everybody else is doing.
Old 2nd September 2011
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tablo View Post
+1. I would love to have this happen, the "competitive" version is for radio stations (because louder songs sound louder anyway even if it's clipped, and the radio is record labels' excuse for loudness war) and the normal version is for CDs. There are really no reason to buy the physical CDs if the mastering is so crappy, ruined by the loudness war.
Actually, almost every time a separate master is made, the good one goes to the radio stations and the crap one goes to the public. Radio does their own loudness processing. Music that is crazy loud to begin with doesn't broadcast so well so sometimes the stations request a quieter master.
Old 2nd September 2011
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheebs Goat View Post
It can't simply be up to the producer to decide. If it was as you say, at least some number of major releases greater than zero wouldn't be pushed that hard.

Sure, the producer has the say on paper, but when the choice is crush and get hired again, or don't crush and don't get hired again... It's not much of a choice.


And for what it is worth, it doesn't take much balls to commit to doing exactly what everybody else is doing.
Yes it is up to the producer to take into account everyone's expectations and deliver the final product...that is your job.

Doesn't mean you can;t get fired...that's where the balls comes in...if you are that sure that it sounds better quiter then deliver it that way...If you are right...you'll be getting calls as all over the place from people telling you how much your mix stands out from the pack....or you'll be getting calls for redos.

Make it sound great and then no one can complian...can they?


You can't have it both ways...either get in the game or go clean out your locker.
Old 2nd September 2011
  #84
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Ben F's Avatar
 

Verified Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LisaSmile View Post
Yes it is up to the producer to take into account everyone's expectations and deliver the final product...that is your job.

Doesn't mean you can;t get fired...that's where the balls comes in...if you are that sure that it sounds better quiter then deliver it that way...If you are right...you'll be getting calls as all over the place from people telling you how much your mix stands out from the pack....or you'll be getting calls for redos.

Make it sound great and then no one can complian...can they?


You can't have it both ways...either get in the game or go clean out your locker.
The music industry simply doesn't work like this, and neither do large mastering facilities.
Old 2nd September 2011
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben F View Post
The music industry simply doesn't work like this, and neither do large mastering facilities.
The music industry works like any other industry (not incl. the thievery of course!)...and that is....

If you make a great product...people will like it....and want it....if you make an inferior product you can only make people think that they want it for a little while...

I'd say your job is to make as much great product as possible and do your best with the inferior stuff and move on.

When something sounds great, everyone knows it...it really is that simple.

I personally haven't made anything great...yet...but I sure know when someone else' stuff sounds great...don;t you guys.....if something is all distorted and grainy sounding in a bad way, then it isn;t great...is it?..and if something sounds limp and ineffective next to some great recordings, then it isn;t great either...is it?

We have to stop blaming loudness people...just do your best to make it great and everyone will know.
Old 3rd September 2011
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LisaSmile View Post
Doesn't mean you can;t get fired...that's where the balls comes in...if you are that sure that it sounds better quiter then deliver it that way...If you are right...you'll be getting calls as all over the place from people telling you how much your mix stands out from the pack....
But that is my point. If there really was an option to do no loudness damage and the producer could puff up his balls and go for it, somebody would have done it. In the past 5-10 years I can't think of anything outside of Chinese Democracy that went for zero loudness damage. Can you name anything else?
Quote:
...or you'll be getting calls for redos.
This is my guess for what always happens. Redos. The guy who worked on the latest Maroon 5 album said on this very board that he delivered it quieter and was forced to go back and make it louder.

So how is "not loud" an actual choice when in reality it is not allowed to happen?
Old 3rd September 2011
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LisaSmile View Post
Make it sound great and then no one can complian...can they?
How does this explain the fact that the last two decades the levels went from -18 dBFS to -8 dBFS or even higher?
Old 3rd September 2011
  #88
Gear Maniac
 

Well I'm not sure why you (editman) are being so harsh. Lisa seems to make lots of sense. She's tried to explain that there is good loud and bad loud and that complaining about it is just an excuse...because there are some mastering guys that make great loud masters.

You seem to have a very misguided view of this discussion and keep putting words in her mouth which she didn't say.
I'm just an assistant, but I see a lot of masters coming through where the mix engineers are complaining and the number one complaint isn't loudness. It's ME's taking it upon themselves to change the shape of the mix.

So perhaps Lisa was on to something when she suggested that you might be trying to compensate for something other than your inability to produce a good loud master.
Old 3rd September 2011
  #89
MFA
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It's strange to see how this thread develops, and I'm yet to find any reason for that.

I get tired of reading about the loudness war, because we're all well aware of that. I do premastering on a daily basis, and in 90% of all cases the labels as well as the artists choose a compromise between the high RMS and the audiophile version. This is because it is actually possible to speak with those guys and discuss the pro and contra of each version.

Depending on the budget my strategy is to have at least one, sometimes more songs available in a high, mid and low RMS version. This is kinda stressful work, since high RMS (and high harmonic distortion) premastering is a quite different approach than the other two. But there's a good reason to have those three versions available, since it would otherwise be impossible to explain the client what will happen to his work when used in the huge variety of todays listening situations.

Keeping in mind that "the" great master doesn't exist, one of the key questions is: Where will this music be played? Which market is targetted? On which media will it sell best?

Over the last five years, it happened to me twice that a label refused my premaster and wanted to have it done again, by another engineer. This was a bitter pill to swallow (is that correct in English?), but everytime you struggle you also learn a lot. Both masters were quite low in RMS and translate very well on PA systems or a high quality equipment. However, the studio that hired me claimed to get the money back from me. What a punch in the face...

But it was my fault that I didn't ask the studio and the label how they wanted it to sound and how much of a compromise they would accept in terms of loss of transients and increased harmonic distortion. It was a nightmare to just hear "it's not loud enough", because indeed one is tempted to answer "oh, did you hear about that big knob on your listening system which is labeled with Volume", but I decided to keep my mouth shut.

Many of todays productions aim at the download market alone. Here, a very high loudness is absolutely necessary. Even at the big budget releases, there are quite a lot of productions that cannot (or can hardly) be played over pa systems without extreme stress to the ear and the brain. The more tricky productions already bear that in mind when they arrange/compose/mix the songs and leave plenty of gaps and space in their pieces. So the ear can breathe a little.

The ART of premastering is to know what is possible for the intended purpose. And if they want it loud, they get it loud. This is the biggest challenge in mastering, and it has always been. There are so many theories how the todays situation has developed, but I think that is just human nature: Music for the dance floor just needs to be loud. Almost 40 years ago, at Motown the golden rule has also been "make it loud!". With todays ultra fast look-ahead tools, multiband splitting chains and intelligent harmonic distortion/enhancement, the result is probably more questionable, but the good news is that it cannot go much further: The limit is close.

So, I don't see where there is so much room for an overheated debate.
Old 3rd September 2011
  #90
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by editronmegatron View Post
Perhaps not.

And what "inability to produce good loud masters" are you referring to? That assumes "facts not in evidence". Its a completely fabricated premise. Total conjecture.

And, drilling down, what "good loud masters" do you mean? Name them. Name the ones that wouldn't sound better, level-matched, if they weren't crushed.

At the hyper-limited "competitive levels" that are currently being foisted upon us, there's not "good loud" or "bad loud". What you get is "reaally horribly bad loud", and "slightly less horribly bad loud".

Try to make sense.

Do you fail to realize that pretty much the entire industry agrees that the loudness war is a problem, and that it is bad for the state of the art? You can't understand that? Really? Or are you just trying to back up your pal?

You're free to follow Stewart's agenda, btw, if that's who you want to be.

I'm sorry but this is just too much...why is it that this type of abuse is allowed...every sentence you make suggestions of what I'm thinking or assuming...put words in my mouth...make huge generalizations and accuse thise that don;t agree with you of ruining music.

This is unnacceptable behaviour IMO and Lisa doesn't deserve it either.

The post preceeding mine is quite a good one and seems to be on target.

Loudness is not a problem...no matter how many times you yell screem and complain...it's folks like you that don;t know how to deal with yourself that cuase problems...everyone is free to listen to music whatever way they want and everyone is free to make music loud if they want...there are no rules....and if you dont like what is being produced, then dont listen to it...but please stop whining and bashing your head against the wall.

We'll do it whatever way we please thank you very much.
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